Scaling.

[mkreku]

I wouldn't mind the scaling.. if my character could at least 'outrun' the enemies leveling at some point )

[Shadowstrider]

Theory tested.  I loaded up Fallout, made a character, and went straight west from Vault 13.  I encountered a group of super mutants and a floater.  I tried to run away and a super mutant shot me at 15 hexes in the dark for 96 damage, killing me.

 

If that's scaling, I don't think I want to see what those random enounters are like at 15th level.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I must've been mistaken. I could've sworn I encountered some mini-gun wielding raiders when I was higher level. Perhaps if you're higher level it scales up to you, but enemies don't scale down to you.

[Kasoroth]

Great, then let the player deal with the consequences of attempting to conquer an area that is obviously full of great challenges before the character is of an ideal level to do so.  I've read Bethsoft designers defend the easily-abused learn-by-doing system by saying that it's not their responsibility to prevent the player from doing stuff like jumping around the world non-stop to build their Acrobatics skill.  I don't get why that philosophy doesn't extend to things like auto-balancing.  In games like Ultima V, the Phantasie games, Fallout, even Pool of Radiance, the player had many exploration options at any given time.  After leaving Tilverton in Curse of the Azure Bonds, you could head straight to the Mulmaster Beholder Corps if you wanted to.  Your characters were all in the 5th-7th level range, but hey -- knock yourself out.

 

Auto-balancing effectively removes serious consequence from player choice.  As unintuitive as this may seem, choice without serious consequence often makes the player feel pretty impotent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with this completely. In fact, I did try to fight the Mulmaster Beholder Corps in CotAB at rather low level (not quite immediately after Tilverton, but pretty early) and got demolished, disintegrated, petrified, etc. I decided to try someplace else and come back later.

 

In Wasteland I went to the cathedral very early in the game, ignored all the warning signs, and got blasted to little bits by monks and nuns with laser weapons. I came back later at high level, and carrying a proton axe, and I got revenge. It was much fun. Gaining a level was something to look forward to because it meant you might be able to get into someplace that would slaughter you earlier.

 

In Oblivion, gaining a level is actually something to dread, because you have to worry about whether you're equipped well enough to handle what the next level will throw at you, and there's no way to retreat back to a "safe zone" if you get in over your head.

 

-Kasoroth

[J.E. Sawyer]

I must've been mistaken.  I could've sworn I encountered some mini-gun wielding raiders when I was higher level.  Perhaps if you're higher level it scales up to you, but enemies don't scale down to you.

Random encounters in Fallout are scripted on a per-square basis. The region determines the difficulty. So, it's certainly possible that you encountered raiders with miniguns, but their "scaling" is fixed to the world map square.

[Nathaniel Chapman]

I have to say, I really like Oblivion overall but I dislike the way they handled scaling. It just doesn't feel epic to go into a cave, kill a bunch of vampires, then walk outside and get my ass handed to me by an uber-levelled mountain lion. It's also made the game SUPER hard for my stealth character, which is getting pretty frustrating.

[Musopticon?]

Just one little thing...is it possible to get magical arrows? And if so, can a poor dunmer thief with no alchemical or enchanting abilities get them too?

 

Edit: Starting as a thief character just felt natural when delving into the tutorial. I blame Emil Pagliauro.

Edited April 3, 2006 by Musopticon?

[mkreku]

Haha, I am a stealth character too. I guess all the talk about one of the original Thief-designers working on the game got to us all.

[Musopticon?]

Well, yeah. I got the impression that almost everyone is playing as a ninjadude. I don't care for that ****, but the stealth model just begs to be exploited. And when I say exploited, I mean "dead arrowsoaked necromancers naked on Fingerbowl cavefloor".

 

Edit: I shouldn't even be reading this thread, but if the difficulty really does take a huge leap when I hit the higher levels(4 right now), I'd like to know where and how to get equipment which helps me to tackle that.

Edited April 3, 2006 by Musopticon?

[mkreku]

Well, I am only in my twenties in marksmanship, but my blade skills are 100. It's entirely possible to sneak up to a necromancer and either kill him in one hit (awesome!) or sneak up on something tougher and actually get several backstabs on him. Sneak up, get 6x damage, sneak away.. sneak back up, get 6x damage again and so on. Kind of unrealistic but highly satisfying.

[Dyan]

Right now I'm level 2. I've closed four oblivion gates and I'm pretty much a god, or as near to it as I can be at this level. I'm wearing a combination of fur & blade armour and most things are going down fairly quickly.

 

I don't however, see any reason to level up. None whatsoever. If things are just going to get harder and frustrate me - what is the point? Better equipment? Better spells? More money would be nice, sure. But why? So the gear will break the economy? I don't spend money. The only thing I'd really buy are spells, but so far, I'm doing just fine with my flare and minor heal thing. I don't even use the chill touch spell.

 

So... could someone give me a valid reason to level which does not include "better gear"? Or at least, not solely that. I don't mind if I'm fighting stunted scamps by the thousands. If the game is simply going to get harder, I may as well stay at level 2.

[Nathaniel Chapman]

Just one little thing...is it possible to get magical arrows? And if so, can a poor dunmer thief with no alchemical or enchanting abilities get them too?

 

Edit: Starting as a thief character just felt natural when delving into the tutorial. I blame Emil Pagliauro.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to say, I think they did a really good job on the Thieves' Guild quests.

[Musopticon?]

So... could someone give me a valid reason to level which does not include "better gear"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are some quests which are only accesible on higher levels. And considering how good some of the side quests are, I'd say that's a valid reason.

 

Mr Chapman: I have yet to join the Guild, but I have high hopes. We'll see.

 

Tigranes: Thanks, too bad I play on 360.

Edited April 3, 2006 by Musopticon?

[Tigranes]

Magical arrows are possible. E.g. +5 fire damage. Magical bows are also possible. I am also using a nice mod that adds a bow/arrow shop, it is probably a bit too cheap though. (http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=330257)

 

edit: on thieves' guild, i've only done 3-4 quests, and currently they are fairly good. But I still have yet to see a quest that really makes me congratulate Bethesda.

Edited April 3, 2006 by Tigranes

[mkreku]

The final quest in the thieves guild was good.

 

Oh, and there are lots and lots of magic arrows in Oblivion. I always sell mine (Daedric arrows for teh win!11) but you'll eventually find arrows with silence spells, with 20 additional fire/ice/shock damage, arrows that light up the area where they hit (very cool) and so on. Now that I think about it, I don't know why I keep selling off my magic arrows. It must be to clean up the inventory..

[Musopticon?]

Thanks. And thanks. Maybe my archer-backstabber is a viable build afterall.

[Tigranes]

It is, if your sneak gets good enough you can just fire 5+ sneak attacks from far away till they drop dead. Probably the only way I got through those Spriggans that heal themselves to 100% about 3 times.

[nik_bg]

Oblivion had had the potential to be the greatest game ever created, but unfortunately that awful scaling kills all the fun.

 

I don't think it is fun to kill a goblin with 2-3 weak fireballs when I am at level 1, and to be unable to kill the same goblin type with 8d blade when I am level 10. It is just frustrating.

 

It is not fun that a fighter with strength = 90, endurance = 90, blade = 60, block = 60, heavyArmour = 80 and blade with damage 13, is not able to kill a single frost atronache.

 

It is not fun that 80% of players time is wating, waiting and waiting for magica to restore in order to restore health. After each single fight.

 

Something is very wrong with this game, I am happy I didn't pay for it but took it from a friend, who, BTW is very disappointed and not able to play it just because of the same problems. Morrowind was much more fun to play. Gothic 2 style of scaling/balancing is also almost perfect, hope it is the same in Gothic 3.

[Shadowstrider]

Just one little thing...is it possible to get magical arrows? And if so, can a poor dunmer thief with no alchemical or enchanting abilities get them too?

 

Edit: Starting as a thief character just felt natural when delving into the tutorial. I blame Emil Pagliauro.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to say, I think they did a really good job on the Thieves' Guild quests.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oddly, Bruce Nesmith designed the Thieves' Guild, while Emil tackled Dark Brotherhood.

Edited April 3, 2006 by Shadowstrider

[SteveThaiBinh]

I think I'll like the scaling feature of the game when I actually get to play it. Hopefully it means that I can send my character where I like and where I think the narrative and his personality dictate he should go, rather than having to run around doing lots of silly, out-of-character sidequests just in order to level up sufficiently to fight the next big monster.

 

If I ever manage to get my computer back, I'll enjoy this game.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Right now I'm level 2. I've closed four oblivion gates and I'm pretty much a god, or as near to it as I can be at this level. I'm wearing a combination of fur & blade armour and most things are going down fairly quickly.

 

I don't however, see any reason to level up. None whatsoever. If things are just going to get harder and frustrate me - what is the point? Better equipment? Better spells? More money would be nice, sure. But why? So the gear will break the economy? I don't spend money. The only thing I'd really buy are spells, but so far, I'm doing just fine with my flare and minor heal thing. I don't even use the chill touch spell.

 

So... could someone give me a valid reason to level which does not include "better gear"? Or at least, not solely that. I don't mind if I'm fighting stunted scamps by the thousands. If the game is simply going to get harder, I may as well stay at level 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Some unique quest stuff is level based. But it's not like you need to have it.

 

The better equipment thing is misleading since as you level it's technically not better anyway.

[Shadowstrider]

Right now I'm level 2. I've closed four oblivion gates and I'm pretty much a god, or as near to it as I can be at this level. I'm wearing a combination of fur & blade armour and most things are going down fairly quickly.

 

I don't however, see any reason to level up. None whatsoever. If things are just going to get harder and frustrate me - what is the point? Better equipment? Better spells? More money would be nice, sure. But why? So the gear will break the economy? I don't spend money. The only thing I'd really buy are spells, but so far, I'm doing just fine with my flare and minor heal thing. I don't even use the chill touch spell.

 

So... could someone give me a valid reason to level which does not include "better gear"? Or at least, not solely that. I don't mind if I'm fighting stunted scamps by the thousands. If the game is simply going to get harder, I may as well stay at level 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Some unique quest stuff is level based. But it's not like you need to have it.

 

The better equipment thing is misleading since as you level it's technically not better anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It certainly is better. At level 10 you can't get enormous stat increases with magic items, at level 20+ you can. I've had characters so fast the enemies couldn't keep up with me while I was sneaking, or characters so strong I can take half health in a single blow.

[Gromnir]

"People are claiming that the system is meta-gamey, when it is much less so than a traditional RPG. In traditional RPGs people go around and do every quest, even if their character would not. In Oblivion, the compulsion to do this is signifigantly reduced, because helping grannie only gives you a few gold and not 300 XP."

 

*chuckle*

 

has you actually played this game?

 

1st of all, since being "more realistic" is a big seeling point for ss, which would you say is more realistic: scaling or fixed level encounters? if "more realistic" is a good thing, then we suspect that scaling disturbs the hell out of ss.

 

2nd, it is appearing that ss doesn't know how oblivion works. does oblivion encourage exp & 1007 milling? sure it does... more so than any game we has played in a long, long time. the difference is that oblivion discourages leveling. again, we don't think ss knows how oblivion works.

 

bob is getting his arse handed to him. seems like every battle is too tough. how does bob fix? he goes out into the wilderness and fights critters with his weaker skills, or he boosts the hell out of his uber skills and simply does not level. see, the thing ss keeps forgetting is that by now bob realizes that leveling ain't what makes his player tough. getting 1007 and raising skills is what makes his player tough. leveling is what makes his FOES/ENCOUNTERS tough. bob will mill the 10075 and exp likes crazy in oblivion... he simply will not choose to level until he feels like he can handle it... which is 'bout as meta-gamey as you can get.

 

let us revisit bob. when bob first goes to cave X and fights some bandits with magical 1007, he must reload likes a dozen times to make it through the cave, but now bob gots a very nice sword or curiass or whatever. the wonderfully stoopid thing 'bout oblivion (as far as metagaming goes) is that bob knows that he can come backs to this cave a short time later and it will be repopulated with new critters and 1007... can pillage the same 1007 sources ad nauseum if he wishes... but the second time 'round he will has better skills and 10075, so cave will be a breeze.

 

*shrug*

 

if ss thinks he is being reasonable he is kidding self.

 

'course for the hundredth time, scale is not the issue so much as is the leveling scheme. is nothing wrong with scale.... and we disagrees with josh on this. rats in a maze. w/o an intelligent scale scheme you can ends up feeling like a rat in a maze. sure, there may not be any actual walls forcing you down a particular path in a crpg sans scale, but if the encounters is set for a particular level then you gots functional walls.

 

there will be a desire from some folks to use hyperbole to bash scale... or they may simply point to the silliness of oblivion. we ask that you restrain selves. scale not have to be oblivion scale. get through fallout's Den at first level? yeah, such a thing is bad. however, having the Den encounters scale up or down in a range with a set basement would be bad in what way?

 

intelligent scale coupled with a character development and leveling scheme that ain't as retarded as oblivion could be a very good thing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 3, 2006 by Gromnir

[Azarkon]

I think I'll like the scaling feature of the game when I actually get to play it.  Hopefully it means that I can send my character where I like and where I think the narrative and his personality dictate he should go, rather than having to run around doing lots of silly, out-of-character sidequests just in order to level up sufficiently to fight the next big monster.

 

If I ever manage to get my computer back, I'll enjoy this game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's a huge immersion breaker because the narrative doesn't match up with the world. The problem with Oblivion is that it doesn't quite make sense, even if you started off following the narrative: Kvatch is apparently under siege by a legion of stunted scamps and daedric churls, which the guards make short work of at level 1. I happened to have followed the narrative at this point instead of going off to do side-quests (after all, saving the world is more important!), and it just felt out of place when the guard captain's all bravado and glee after defeating a few scamps.

 

In the end, I feel more *forced* to do silly, out of character sidequests in Oblivion than almost any other game I've played simply out of a sense of wanting to play the game as it's meant to be played (which apparently isn't the same as following the narrative). That is - wanting to see Oblivion in all its glory, engaging in epic battles, etc. instead of finishing the game at level 1 after defeating a bunch of stunted scamps. Here's a game where I'm actually *afraid* to continue with the main quest lest I end up not experiencing 90% of the actual game.

 

Oh and, whoever designed the main quest in Oblivion... There is a discontinuity smack in the middle of Kvatch when the captain ushers you on to recapture the castle but you're supposed to deliver a certain someone to a safe place. You'd think that the captain would understand that you've practically got the most important person in the empire with you, but no - he suggests that you attack the castle at once with that certain person in toll, despite the fact that he's the one person all of Oblivion is after. *shrug*

[Shadowstrider]

1st of all, since being "more realistic" is a big seeling point for ss, which would you say is more realistic: scaling or fixed level encounters?  if "more realistic" is a good thing, then we suspect that scaling disturbs the hell out of ss.

 

It does.

 

2nd, it is appearing that ss doesn't know how oblivion works.  does oblivion encourage exp & 1007 milling?  sure it does... more so than any game we has played in a long, long time.  the difference is that oblivion discourages leveling.  again, we don't think ss knows how oblivion works.

 

No, it doesn't discourage leveling. It isn't balanced for people who use speechcraft, and other non-combat skills, but it doesn't discourage leveling. If you play a battle class, that is to say something with skills made only for battle, the game is not difficult.

 

My warrior can cast the lowest level protection spell (given right after making your class) while decked out in Umbra's armor and go toe to toe with 3 Clanfears, at level 15. Only spells I use are a 25 point healing spell and said protection spell. Granted, my sword drains magicka with every hit (thanks sigil stone ).

 

bob is getting his arse handed to him. seems like every battle is too tough.  how does bob fix?  he goes out into the wilderness and fights critters with his weaker skills, or he boosts the hell out of his uber skills and simply does not level.  see, the thing ss keeps forgetting is that by now bob realizes that leveling ain't what makes his player tough.  getting 1007 and raising skills is what makes his player tough.  leveling is what makes his FOES/ENCOUNTERS tough.  bob will mill the 10075 and exp likes crazy in oblivion... he simply will not choose to level until he feels like he can handle it... which is 'bout as meta-gamey as you can get.

 

Most people aren't having this problem. Additionally, it isn't completely true. So long as you don't make a bunch of non-combat skills your majors you should be fine. Who'da thunk that a non-combat oriented character would suck at combat?

 

also, when bob first goes to cave X and fights some bandits with magical 1007 he must reload likes a dozen times to make it through the cave, but  now the player gots a very nice sword or curiass or whatever.  the wonderfully  stoopid thing 'bout oblivion (s far as metagaming goes) is that  bob knows that he can come backs to this cave a short time later and it will be repopulated with new critters and 1007... can pillage the same 1007 sources ad nauseum if he wishes.

 

So? Giving players the option to continue playing after they've done everything is a bad thing, now? Yes, the option to go back and clear out Vilverin a dozen times is there, but you're not forced to. Where is the problem?

 

'course for the hundredth time, scale is not the issue so much as is the leveling scheme.  is nothing wrong with scale.... and we disagrees with josh on this.  rats in a maze.  w/o an intelligent scale scheme you can ends up feeling like a rat in a maze.  sure, there may not be any actual walls forcing you down a particular path in a crpg sans scale, but if the encounters is set for a particular level then you gots functional walls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, Oblivion's leveling system isn't perfect. Not because of the practice makes perfect approach, though. It is fuxxed for other reasons, like some skills levelling too quickly, while others level too slowly. Non-combat skills can make the game rough (Rough, not unplayable). I've already said this a few dozen times.

 

If it were my call, there would be no levels. At all.

[astr0creep]

*snip*

 

bob is getting his arse handed to him. seems like every battle is too tough.  how does bob fix?  he goes out into the wilderness and fights critters with his weaker skills, or he boosts the hell out of his uber skills and simply does not level.  see, the thing ss keeps forgetting is that by now bob realizes that leveling ain't what makes his player tough.  getting 1007 and raising skills is what makes his player tough.  leveling is what makes his FOES/ENCOUNTERS tough.  bob will mill the 10075 and exp likes crazy in oblivion... he simply will not choose to level until he feels like he can handle it... which is 'bout as meta-gamey as you can get.

 

*snip*

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As difficult as that was to read, I think I understand.

 

It works basically like Sid Meier's Pirates!

 

You don't level up until you think you have enough skills/items/specialists to meet the increasing challenges of the game.

 

In Pirates! you start at lvl1(or higher) and you can go through the entire game without ever leveling up because the way it works, you levelup by splitting the loot with your crew and you are then offered to continue as your level or get promoted.

Promotion=everything tougher, from enemies to crew morale.

But you can simply split the loot and move on as the same class.

 

Am I getting this right?