Scaling.

[Gromnir]

the folks at bethesda simply got lazy. you coulda' easily capped some of the randomn encounters at 10th level or so and most of the siliness woulda' been less obvious. cap the randomn bandit encounters and wilderness critters 'n such, but allows the vampire den type stuff scale normal. do the same, but reversed, for things like the arena. has the arena scale, but start the scale at maybe 10th level. just seemed lazy not to do things as Gromnir suggests... that or the bethesda guys honestly thought that their way is better... which is kinda scary.

 

regardless, we honestly not mind that the way oblivion scales. yeah, it has some wacky in-game results, but we not see it as a huge reason to complain. the bethesda folks did scale so that game would be challenging all the way through... which they coulda' done if they were a little more discriminating 'bout how and where they scaled encounters, but ultimately their solution acheived their aim.

 

'course we thinks that the way the character levels does result in some issues. acrobatics and athletics may have combat applications, but if your character is leveling up at light speeds 'cause he gots acrobatics and athletics and speechcraft and security as major skills, the poor dumb bastard is gonna be in for a world of hurt when he encounters that 12th level imp or timber wolf when all he gots is lame blade or conjuring skills. tell us that athletics and acrobatics is combat skills is ignoring the reality that they has but very minor combat applications compared to the more obvious combat focused skills.

 

scale encounters is fine... bethesda were just kinda ham-fisted about application of it... sorta likes their dialogues.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Silpheed]

I would appreciate the scaling system more if it kept those level 1 goblins aswell as keepingall the other leveled creatures through to the level 20 ogres. A mixed level list for the creatures would make more sense for me at least. It will be interesting to see if Bethsoft will act on this or if they'll keep the scaling system as it is.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Silpheed

[astr0creep]

Scaling enemies is not bad at all. It challenges the player and most games are too easy nowadays anyway. And if Oblivion gets too hard, there is a difficulty slider for such purpose.

Wizardry 8 had scaling enemies and they would often attack in packs of 30-50 against your 6-8 party members... And it's still a great game.

 

My main concern right now is with weapons/armor/items. For the loot carried by scaled enemies it is fine and logical and all.

But no matter what level I am, if I have to unlock a chest to get whatever is inside, the treasure should have the possibility to be worth unlocking. Same thing with merchants. I should be able to BUY a good axe no matter what lvl I am, my choice limited only buy the amount of moola I'm carrying.

 

Right?

Edited March 30, 2006 by astr0creep

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

My main concern right now is with weapons/armor/items. For the loot carried by scaled enemies it is fine and logical and all.

But no matter what level I am, if I have to unlock a chest to get whatever is inside, the treasure should have the possibility to be worth unlocking. Same thing with merchants. I should be able to BUY a good axe no matter what lvl I am, my choice limited only buy the amount of moola I'm carrying.

 

Right? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

None of the better gear exists at the start. It only appears as you level up. Even if you "manipulate" Merchant to make a ton of gold, it wont do you any good.

[astr0creep]

None of the better gear exists at the start. It only appears as you level up. Even if you "manipulate" Merchant to make a ton of gold, it wont do you any good.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

See now I think that sucks but I haven't played it yet. And it won't stop me from buying it.

[kefka]

The scaling is bad enough but respawning enemies just make it worse. Kill every bandit in one of those ruins and a while later they are back, only sporting their nice new shiny armor and weapons. This is repeated over and over again. You can return at your leisure to grab the better loot. Money is even less of a problem in Oblivion than Morrowind.

 

Btw, it's not really about difficulty but the incentive to explore and level your character. There's not much point to explore because you're not going to find anything you can't get in any of the dungeons. There may be a few unique items but most of it is random based on your level. I'm currently at level 30 and other than quest locations I see no point in going anywhere else.

[Llyranor]

Scaling in and of itself is not good or bad, it comes to design within individual games. Some other RPGs I've played have had scaling, and I have enjoyed them thoroughly. I didn't mind Oblivion's scaling, either. But, then again, that's because I just rushed through the game, so my perception is different.

[astr0creep]

Btw, it's not really about difficulty but the incentive to explore and level your character. There's not much point to explore because you're not going to find anything you can't get in any of the dungeons.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So what's the point of leveling up if the enemies will always be as powerful as you and the items will always be "alright" to you?

 

Example: In another game, let's say Gothic 1, you find a big 2-hander sword but your strength isn't high enough to wield it. You now have motivation to lvlup and put those points in Str so you can use your shiny new sword. If it's a dagger or a rusty 2-hander you just sell it. In Oblivion, you open a chest and the sword is exactly what you can use, everytime. You can still sell it but what's your motivation for lvlup? And doesn't the lack of lesser items/enemies limit the immersion factor?

 

In Morrowind I once played a game where after 3 hours I had Sunder in my inventory. Thats the kind of open-endedness I expect from an Elder Scrolls game...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

So what's the point of leveling up if the enemies will always be as powerful as you and the items will always be "alright" to you?

 

Example: In another game, let's say Gothic 1, you find a big 2-hander sword but your strength isn't high enough to wield it. You now have motivation to lvlup and put those points in Str so you can use your shiny new sword. If it's a dagger or a rusty 2-hander you just sell it. In Oblivion, you open a chest and the sword is exactly what you can use, everytime. You can still sell it but what's your motivation for lvlup? And doesn't the lack of lesser items/enemies limit the immersion factor?

 

In Morrowind I once played a game where after 3 hours I had Sunder in my inventory. Thats the kind of open-endedness I expect from an Elder Scrolls game...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well in most RPGS you need to level to complete the main quest. In Oblivion, you apparently dont need to level at all in order to do that. I've seen one quest that had a level requirment (.

 

You could remove the levels completely and just have stats "level up" in the same way as skills. I doubt you would notice much if that way done.

 

With 79 str and a glass mace I'm taking longer to kill a goblin than when I had 50 str and a rusty axe.

 

Although the 19 damage sword is still overkill for singles in most cases.

 

If you knew the locations in advance you could theoretically get the artifacts very early on. Although I don't know if they are fixed items or level dependent.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I think one of the most defining things about Oblivion for me is this.

 

In most RPGs leveling up is something to look forward too. In Oblivion it's something to avoid.

[astr0creep]

I think one of the most defining things about Oblivion for me is this.

 

In most RPGs leveling up is something to look forward too. In Oblivion it's something to avoid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The people at Bethesda must be practicing for Fallout 3 *winks at Hades*

[Shadowstrider]

None of the better gear exists at the start. It only appears as you level up. Even if you "manipulate" Merchant to make a ton of gold, it wont do you any good.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is not true.

 

There are many magical items that you can acquire while being level 1.

[kefka]

In most RPGs leveling up is something to look forward too. In Oblivion it's something to avoid

Yep, and even that is hard to do unless you intentionally pick skills you rarely use. I had alchemy as a minor and that went up 10 in no time. As a major it'd level you like crazy. Combat is the main culprit though. Just by doing the fighters guild quests I rose like 10-15 levels. I've maxed out both heavy armor & armorer with blunt & block close behind. My other majors - security, mercantile, and athletics are way behind.

 

At least you aren't forced to sleep. So you could avoid leveling if you really want to.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

This is not true.

 

There are many magical items that you can acquire while being level 1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well since I never mentioned magic probably not.

 

Are they as good as the ones that pop up when you are level 20 ?

[mkreku]

Oblivion is a fantastic game, but it is definitely not without flaws. Some of the same generic-ness that plagued Morrowind is still visible in Oblivion, and that has everything to do with the scaling. Instead of trying to balance out the entire, gigantic world with predetermined monster levels, they've tried to come up with a system that automatically scales the environments to suit the player. It works well in giving you an even difficulty curve, but it fails horribly in making the world seem to be there for a reason other than to provide a challenge for your level.

 

A few special monsters (named ones), a few predetermined dungeons, a little more love and devotion to the content and Oblivion would have been even better. I still think it's great and I'm having a blast (except when I run into those damn Goblin Warlords..).

[Shadowstrider]

This is not true.

 

There are many magical items that you can acquire while being level 1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well since I never mentioned magic probably not.

 

Are they as good as the ones that pop up when you are level 20 ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Some yes, some no.

[Darth Barth]

The whole scaling issue in Oblivion really puts a snake on my plane. Incentive to go out and explore places which my character is not meant to go is always my MO. In Oblivion, there is never the feeling that I am either intruding or in over my head. Also, the pace of leveling is WAY too fast for me.

 

Like Morrowind and NWN, I will have to shelve the game until the game fans fix the problems created by the game designers.

[metadigital]

I think the problem is one of expectation, and management thereof. Gamers going hell-for-leather to level-up are going to get exactly what they deserve ... just as those who pace their levels, making sure they have a few attributes to multiply during the process, rather than just levelling because it is possible.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The whole scaling issue in Oblivion really puts a snake on my plane.  Incentive to go out and explore places which my character is not meant to go is always my MO.  In Oblivion, there is never the feeling that I am either intruding or in over my head.  Also, the pace of leveling is WAY too fast for me. 

 

Like Morrowind and NWN, I will have to shelve the game until the game fans fix the problems created by the game designers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You could always create a character where you can dictate the pace. If I've learned anything from playing the game it's that you dont major in skills your going to use.

 

If you want to be really "strict" on your leveling , then it's also a good idea to pick at least one from each stat group.

 

For example

 

Blade

Hand to Hand

 

and then only use them when you want to level up.

 

Ditto with magic schools.

 

Major in ones you never intend to use. Speechcraft is another one, just dont play the speech game.

[Darth Barth]

The whole scaling issue in Oblivion really puts a snake on my plane.  Incentive to go out and explore places which my character is not meant to go is always my MO.  In Oblivion, there is never the feeling that I am either intruding or in over my head.  Also, the pace of leveling is WAY too fast for me. 

 

Like Morrowind and NWN, I will have to shelve the game until the game fans fix the problems created by the game designers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You could always create a character where you can dictate the pace. If I've learned anything from playing the game it's that you dont major in skills your going to use.

 

If you want to be really "strict" on your leveling , then it's also a good idea to pick at least one from each stat group.

 

For example

 

Blade

Hand to Hand

 

and then only use them when you want to level up.

 

Ditto with magic schools.

 

Major in ones you never intend to use. Speechcraft is another one, just dont play the speech game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I know all this. All of my major skills are controllable and I have each one representing a different attribute.

 

Armorer (Endurance)

Illusion (Personality)

Alchemy (Intelligence)

Alteration (Willpower)

Hand-to-hand (Strength)

Marksman (Agility)

Light Armor (Speed)

 

I think I am missing one but thats a good template based on character creation control. The problem however, is that this kind of setup is contrary to the design philosophy of TES and has been broken since its inception. Foolishly, I believed the successor to Daggerfall was going to iron out these flaws. The shorter production cycle of Oblivion gave me no hope for such a thing happening at all.

[astr0creep]

Is the scaling adjustable through the contruction set? Like a slider or numerical value or does it have to be changed seperately for every item, enemy, etc?

[Tigranes]

The problem with Oblivion's scaling, specifically, was that:

 

-> At any given level, you will rarely (if ever) be handed challenges much below your level, or much above your level. This has the effect of making all enemies pretty much the same Pack of Challenge wrapped in a different texture, and it really feels like the world is levelling up Platform-style.

 

-> Your progression, level/stat/skill wise and equipment wise is always the same. You are robbed of the delight of discovering powerful weapons at an early level, and later on they just become all too common - problems which persist even in RPGs without scaling, but become worse here. I guess this was to fix MW's unbalanced nature (too powerful too early), but this is by no means a perfect solution.

 

I would have been satisfied if Oblivion still had pockets of areas where monsters *were* much more powerful than you so that you had to run the hell out of there, in general a greater standard deviation rate in levels for both monsters and loot. It is also unkind on Oblivion's limited varieties of monsters to put forth only a few at a time: it's kind of silly when the 10th dungeon you go into has the same exact monsters, just a bit stronger.

 

And no, there is no "slider". Mods are attempting to solve the issues by tweaking with variables, but some of the level scaling fixes seem to screw up quests.

[metadigital]

I have hit upon the method of play: don't level up just because you can, level up when you want to change the game (to get better equipment, different monsters, etc).

 

Just because the PC can reach level 158, doesn't mean that is the best stratedy to adopt.

 

The advantage to the Oblivion model is that the PC can reach whatever level the person playing wants to in the time allotted ... whether that be staying at level one, or reaching the teens by the end of the game.

 

Simple, really.

[astr0creep]

The problem with Oblivion's scaling, specifically, was that:

 

-> At any given level, you will rarely (if ever) be handed challenges much below your level, or much above your level. This has the effect of making all enemies pretty much the same Pack of Challenge wrapped in a different texture, and it really feels like the world is levelling up Platform-style.

 

-> Your progression, level/stat/skill wise and equipment wise is always the same. You are robbed of the delight of discovering powerful weapons at an early level, and later on they just become all too common - problems which persist even in RPGs without scaling, but become worse here. I guess this was to fix MW's unbalanced nature (too powerful too early), but this is by no means a perfect solution.

 

I would have been satisfied if Oblivion still had pockets of areas where monsters *were* much more powerful than you so that you had to run the hell out of there, in general a greater standard deviation rate in levels for both monsters and loot. It is also unkind on Oblivion's limited varieties of monsters to put forth only a few at a time: it's kind of silly when the 10th dungeon you go into has the same exact monsters, just a bit stronger.

 

And no, there is no "slider". Mods are attempting to solve the issues by tweaking with variables, but some of the level scaling fixes seem to screw up quests.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This all sounds so... constrictive. And boring.

I'm very sad right now.

[metadigital]

Cheer up! It's a game, and a pretty darn good one to play!