Of Troika

[Gabrielle]

Gabby, you're always too easy sometimes

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Fixed!

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Now that is just wrong.

[Dark_Raven]

Thread "Fixed".

 

Carry on.

[Moose]

That's a shame. I think it's important people know what it is they're joking about. Burning people for pleasureable torture, fine I've no problem with that if you can stare at that image all day.

[saintfrancisnudecenterfold]

troika games were buggy messes that seemed half-baked.  as crappy as were the writing in troika games, stability were even worse... and yet after each incomplete game were released, troika folks went public with their own publisher blame game.  stoopid.  were stoopid for not having better organizational skills to be choosing what they could accomplish with the resources they possesed.  were stoopid for attacking the guys with the money.  were stoopid to make those same mistakes over and over again.

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Writing wasn't always crappy. More to the point that characterization was not plumbed but referred to in shallow ways; I know they were thinking, "Wait, guys who fight monsters together don't sit around whispering like schoolgirls about their private lives..." but in battlefield situations, people do talk, do ask for advice, do try to solve eachothers home problems (when it's not too personal). Also, plots never went deep into issues described and with Troika never seem to.

 

For instance, with Arcanum Troika was trying to exposit their world briefly but I think they were aware they'd never get a second shot at it, not really. Make the public want more? Man, churn out those FMV of bikini clad women and muscular men in tight tunics, that is what gets people to notice every single detail written.

 

You see, Troika never found out something very essential. First you bring out a topless vestal virgin to do a bump and grind, then have the muscle men do their dervish dances with turn of the century excuses for a burlesque -- you do that every once in awhile. Between these points, have excellent gameplay including ethical situations and combat, romance and pastoral moments, horror and intrigue, blah blah blah. It's not just killing that draws people to a game, it's burlesque that a person doesn't have to squint to see, it's intellectual content, it's drama, romance, action, exploration, comedy, companionship, tragedy, "every damn trick pulled in literary works since before Gilgamesh and every struggle to keep it together since Finnegans Wake."

 

The damn thing is, Troika wouldn't have done this. You got one guy scribbling out deep, fascinating campaign world stuff and comedic dialogue and plot, one guy thinking "ok, let's shower a bunch of monsters wherever I'm allowed to", and one guy doting over adolescent trifles such as devil gods and brothels with sheep. Three or four guy away team parties do not make a good creative design team. Everyone in the concept, writing, and area design has gotta have it -- or they're dead weight.

 

Same could be said of technical design teams: if a guy is claiming that simple value interactions are "too complex", that guy is begging for more hourly wages and overtime for napping.

 

Look, it's really all very simple: everyone who gets an hourly wage has to work for a living. Guys who don't work for a living are on Social Security, which doesn't let a guy buy a supercomputer or pay auto insurance unless they cheat, and if they cheat on Social Security, they go to prison or get fined money they don't have. Yeah, it would be really nice to have a cush job, but everyone has some work, even if the work is trying to ignore expensive entertainment or send their kids to a nice education.

[Gromnir]

am wondering if you is simply trying to get somebody to call bs.

 

troika never had no concept of the necessity to be developing character. in a crpg you gotta develop characters through cutscenes and some narration, but mostly through dialogues... and troika writers never learned how to makes dialogues compelling. troika dialogues were almost universally akward and stilted and dull, even on the rare occasions when there were some glimmer o' thematic originality that mighta' captured a player's interest.

 

is writing crpg dialogues tedious and difficult? sure it is. give numerous options leading to seemingly endless bifurcation of dialogues is making crpg writing problematic. troika additionally appeared to be much more concerned with making sure that dialogue bifurcation would lead to multiple gameplay options as 'posed to focusing on how dialogues would develop characters and story. make sure that each toee npc would give a bluff option and an intimidate option and a diplomacy option. great. unfortunately simply having more options not make for better dialogues.

 

am not sure where nude francis thinks he/she were going with his/her post, but we is calling bs.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"You see, Troika never found out something very essential. First you bring out a topless vestal virgin to do a bump and grind, then have the muscle men do their dervish dances with turn of the century excuses for a burlesque -- you do that every once in awhile. Between these points, have excellent gameplay including ethical situations and combat, romance and pastoral moments, horror and intrigue, blah blah blah. It's not just killing that draws people to a game,"

 

That's weird. BL had lots of b00bies, semi naked women, etc. and the game still wasn't a great seller.

 

People like to blame potential customers (the masses) for Troika's fall; but that's silly. Troiika did try to reach the masses - RT combat and MP with Arcanum, D&D with TOEE, and RT combat and b00bies with BL.

 

None of it worked.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Volourn

[Gabrielle]

Bloodliens had semi naked not COMPLETE naked, which is what we wish for.

[Berserk]

I really liked Arcanum but I have to agree that the only NPC follower that was somewhat decently written was Virgil and that was simply because he had a sidequest. When Troika made Bloodlines you could see some beginnings of better character writing, not enough to make me care for the NPC's though, but a beginning nonetheless. I really wish that Troika could have had someone capable of writing good characters and someone with better coding abilities, maybe they would have stayed in buisness for at least one more game then..

[Rayth]

Bloodliens had semi naked not COMPLETE naked, which is what we I wish for.

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Full nudity is the kiss of death for pretty much any game sales wise.

 

Unless it's Hentai.

[Judge Hades]

I would have still bought it from the bargin bin if it had full nudity. That doesn't bother me any.

[Junai]

My favourite candybar..

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, TOEE was weak stuff. Dialogues were patently absurd, and embarrassing even for non-english-speaking players like myself. Intro screens and avatars also had a Commodore 64 quality to it. This game cost 72$ (yes, US dollars) when it hit the shelves in Norway. I watched someone play a downloaded version, and decided not to waste my time with it.

 

 

J.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Junai

[Ginthaeriel]

Arcanum was, at first taste, a treat for me. It was so fascinating being able to create so many characters, the setting fascinated me, and the sheer freedom and many options just astounded me. I could get absorbed playing for hours on end. I'll always remember first exploring Tarant. Sadly, now that I've known every nook and cranny of the place after having played through so many times, it has lost its magic. Of course, every now and then I do read through the walkthrough and am suprised at how much I've forgotten or what I've left unexplored. But I just can't get through shrouded hills again.

 

The problem was... the game was extraordinarily dull once you got the hang of things and there was no more exploration or openendedness. Once you got into Qintarra and were locked pretty much into the main quest, there wasn't much you could do. And the main quest was, despite the plot twists, just awful. The story made no sense, and did not excite. You were basically a survivor of a Zeppelin Crash, whisked away on all manners of tasks, and it was all somehow supposed to come together. The motivations just did not exist. "All I want to do is just stop people from trying to kill me"? Reluctant heroes are brilliant when pulled off well, but sadly this is not one of those cases.

 

And the combat was awful! It was so easily exploited. Having trouble with the slime demons in the old sewers? Just turn on realtime mode and click as fast as possible (if you're using a ranged attack, such as Harm or Firearms). They walk too slowly for them to even reach you before you've made short work of them. Also, once you've developed one particular method of fighting, that was it for the rest of the game. You just spammed whatever attack that was, whether it was melee, disintegrate, or guns.

 

And the character system, although so flexible and wonderful, was so imbalanced and counter-intuitive. Beauty was the most worthless stat in the world, and character reaction meant nothing. With a sufficient intelligence, you could convince anyone to treat you like a normal person. Picking "Beat with an Ugly Stick" as a background feels almost like cheating.

 

Why did constitution increase fatigue but not health? Why did WILLPOWER increase health? No matter how determined you are, if you get shot in the head you get shot in the head: depart from the mortal coil immediately. It seems like it should have been the other way around, then it makes sense because spellcasters could actually have some mana to use instead of falling unconscious all the time.

 

But asides from that, mages were way overpowered. Wait for ten minutes (time has no meaning in this game) and your mana is back up. Mana potions were all over the place, though, and there was absolutely NO place to spend any of your money (good equipment is either found or made) so a harm-happy mage could defeat anything. Unlocking Cantrip was so much better than lockpicking it was ridiculous: not only did it almost never fail, but you could do it from a distance, or "locksnipe", and not get anyone hostile on you (try it in the Tarant Panarii Temple).

 

The game got boring real quick once you got past exploring the world. It was ridiculously easy to get to level 50, and your character if built right (20 str, 20 dex, 5 melee and 5 dodge) could level anything in its path at level 25, even the end boss.

 

And the plot sucked! Talk about a ridiculous main villain motive. And talk about poor antagonization: the main villain was basically a stranger until the point where they whipped him out to fight you. I didn't even really feel like finishing the game at that point.

 

And the characters had promise, but ended up being poorly developed. I felt Magnus was a pretty interesting character: a city dwarf with a lost clan, an unfortunate, sullen poseur seeking to regain the glory that was his birthright, only to discover there was more behind his lineage than he ever thought possible. But he never talked!

 

Then there was Virgil. Ahgh. Virgil was made into the blandest character in the history of gaming: his ALIGNMENT even conformed to yours. His character was built to have absolutely zero tech/magic bias, and so he became weak at everything except some pathetic healing. Why on earth did Troika think it was a good idea to create a joinable NPC that could complement *any* character? He ends up losing any character of his own. The point about Joinable NPCs is that we can *pick* who our allies are!

 

His backstory was promising, nonetheless, though it ultimately failed. A fallen, disillusioned soul, blinded and begging for salvation in a religion that he soon learns is false, but becoming a stronger person as a result of his journey. That would have worked immensely well if the annoying twit wasn't polite as a sycophant, insecure as a teenaged schoolgirl, cowardly, spineless, malleable in character to the point of being nearly schizophrenic and STILL pretty silent to boot! It's so easy to create an anti-heroic persona, now that the concept is being abused to the point of clichehood in the media, and Troika managed to screw that up.

 

I think Troika's problem was one of arrogance. The very name of the company was based off the fact that there were three "horses" pulling a carriage: and really, at first glance a team composed of Tim Cain, Leonard Boyarsky and Jason Anderson does sound sort of like a "Fallout dream team". But they were so full of themselves that they forgot to address some of the issues that even Fallout suffered from, they were too busy touting their "freedom" and were blinded by thinking that open-endedness alone could "revolutionize" the genre. Just look at the logo: "Design. Art. Code." What they forgot was the *story*. They were sloppy too: and you can see all the bugs that riddled the first version of the game. After Arcanum and ToEE (the latter of which must have REALLY brought their egoes down as the "hardcore fanbase" they believed they were making their game for ultimately let them down over aspects they made to accomodate them- like the identify crap) I think they were humbled enough to start cranking out really GOOD work, like Bloodlines. But then they ran out of money, Bloodlines was hastily finished so that the ending was crap and still had tons of bugs, and then it was game over for them.

 

Troika could have been so much more, yet it ended up being so much less. It's a pity.

 

Also, I want another Steampunk game. Badly.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

The story made no sense, and did not excite. You were basically a survivor of a Zeppelin Crash, whisked away on all manners of tasks, and it was all somehow supposed to come together.

 

Khergan the Necromancer had been banished from the Elven council for his magical experiments with necromancy by order of its leader, Nasrudin. He was banished to the Void and believed to remain there forever, although the Elven Council wasn't entirely sure of what the Void was.

 

Arronax, the son of Nasrudin, had also been banished to the Void for having single handedly destroyed the city of Vendigroth; he had perceived the rise of that technological marvel back in the day to be a great slight commited against Elves, whom he believed were the rightful rulers of Arcanum.

 

After the battle with Arronax, Nasrudin was considerably weak and decided to confine himself in a protective magical shell which would remain until he had regained his power back. Meanwhile, Kerghan was plotting to return to the world of Arcanum. To do this he posed himself as Arronax and manifested himself before the Dark Elves, who much like Arronax, believed their kind to be the righteous rulers of Arcanum. Influenced by Arronax's visage they decided to set events in motion that Kerghan believed would release him from his interdimensional prison.

 

Meanwhile, K'an Hua, an elf who had always met opposition from Nasrudin, influenced the Panarii religion to believe Nasrudin was dead and had been buried in Caladon.

 

The Dark Elves posed themselves as the elves of Qintarra and had Loghaire Thunder Stone, the dwarven leader of the Wheel Clan, believe the dwarves had commited considerable atrocities against them, the exact details of which admitedly escape me at this point. However, for this transgression Loghaire Thunder Stone banished the Black Mountain Clain, who was then trasported to the Void - presumably by the Dark Elves - so they could become slaves and assist Kerghan in creating a large teleportation device that would generate a portal so he could escape the Void.

 

During the construction of this device, one dwarf - Stenard Rockcutter - managed to escape trough the device's portal back into Arcanum. During this time, he tried to evade any pursuing forces by starving himself and losing much weight to the point where he could pass off as a gnome. He boarded the IFS Zephyr, presumably to contact someone, but the blimp was shot down by two half-orcs pilotting small planes. When he was about to die he asked a survivor to take a ring he carried to "the boy". The dying "gnome", you'll note, is the same on the game's introduction.

 

Virgil claimed the PC was the reincarnation of Nasrudin who was prophesized to be 'reborn under wings of fire', and he took the PC surviving the burning wreckage of the blimp as a literal interpretation of this. At this point the PC had two elements which required to be investigated so they could provide answers. The ring, and the prophecy.

 

The ring belonged to Gilbert Bates, reputed creator of the steam engine and one of the factors responsible for Arcanum to enter a Steam Age. In truth, Bates never created it. He had met the Black Mountain Clan when he was a young boy and was astonished by their technology, but the dwarves had nothing to do with him. He there met Stenard and became his friend. He said he was interested in the wonders of dwarven technology and said he wanted others to see them. He gave Stenard a ring his father had comissioned to P. Schuyler and Sons for him as a token of appreciation and friendship, soon going away. During this time, the Black Mountain Clan was punished by Loghaire under direct influence of the Dark Elves posing as the Elves of Qintarra and the Silver Lady.

 

When Bates returned the dwarves were all gone. His only proof they had been there was the technology they left, and when others saw the steam engine plans he had with him they had assumed he had created them.

 

Bates gained fame and money, and the reputation for having created the steam engine. When his fortune had allowed him to, he began hiring mercenaries to find out the whereabouts of the Black Mountain dwarves, but all mercenaries turned up empty handed or dead. One day he was approached by an assassin of the Molochean Head, who were in league with the Dark Elves, and was told to remain silent.

 

The Molochean Hand are also the sect of assassins intent on killing the PC for his link to the whole deal with the dying "gnome", although eventually they prove to have been fooled by the Dark Elves as well.

 

In regards to the prophecy, the PC would have to find out more the Panarii religion. In Caladon the PC met with acolyte Alexander, the son of Saint Mannox and was told more of the religion. Trough some investigation it was determined that K'an Hua had killed Mannox - by most likely burying him alive in a crypt below Caladon's church - and rewritten holy texts and conjuring prophecies to keep the secret. By analyzing some scriptures the PC eventually found out that the Nasrudin was actually resting in Thanatos, an island. In the island, it was revealed that Nasrudin was actually quite alive and that the Panarii religion was pretty much built on lies.

 

Nasrudin exposed what had happened between him and Arronax, and when told of the apparent return of Arronax he told the PC the only way to stop him was to be banished to the Voi.d The PC would go to the Ring of Brogdar and meet with Nasrudin (or K'an Hua, if they had sided with him) and be teleported to the Void in order to banish (or restore) Arronax.

 

It was there that it was revealed that Arronax had been imprisoned by Kerghan and was not intent on returning to destroy Arcanum. Not knowing of the PC's true nature or motivations, he had assumed the PC was trying to hinder his progress, likely based on Molochean Hand reports and knowledge of the (falsely built) Panarii prophecy.

 

 

Yes, it is supposed to come together and make sense. And it does.

 

Also, once you've developed one particular method of fighting, that was it for the rest of the game. You just spammed whatever attack that was, whether it was melee, disintegrate, or guns.

 

Once you develop one particular method of fighting, that is it for the rest of nearly all other games in existence. Characters develop skills tailored to succeed at doing something in combat, and they do it; if it works why should they limit themselves? Then again, that they focus on one type of character doesn't prevent them from focusing on others. A character who invests in melee and ranged combat can be as good as a character who succeeds just in melee. Besides, "spamming" the same attacks doesn't always work as there are enemies which have attack patterns or resistances which can require other types of attacks.

 

Beauty was the most worthless stat in the world, and character reaction meant nothing.

 

Beauty was criminally underused but its influence on character reaction was there. Aside the afforementioned character reaction in dialogue, some enemies would quickly attack PCs with a very low Beauty stat or would not immediatelly attack PCs with a very high Beauty stat.

 

Unlocking Cantrip was so much better than lockpicking it was ridiculous: not only did it almost never fail, but you could do it from a distance, or "locksnipe", and not get anyone hostile on you (try it in the Tarant Panarii Temple).

 

Both lockpicking and Unlocking Cantrip's success was determined by character skill and the ability to perform them unnoticed. Unlocking Cantrip was more tricky to perform as its sound seemed to alert nearby NPCs as well. In some locations it will work, in others it will clearly not.

 

The game got boring real quick once you got past exploring the world.

 

Which can be said of many other games once all their mysteries have been solved, all of the gameworld has been explored, and once nearly everything in it has been done.

 

And the plot sucked! Talk about a ridiculous main villain motive. And talk about poor antagonization: the main villain was basically a stranger until the point where they whipped him out to fight you.

 

The villains' main motive is logical and felt more reasonable to me than standard world-conquering aspirations.

 

Why should antagonists or their nature be outright revealed to players, or revealed before time? The revelation of the Master in Fallout, the revelation of the Dark Savant's true nature in Wizardry 8, and the real intent - and therefore clear indication of her status as an antagonist - of Amelissan the Black Hearted in Throne of Bhaal had no negative impact on the game, or the character's exposition.

 

Then there was Virgil. Ahgh. Virgil was made into the blandest character in the history of gaming: his ALIGNMENT even conformed to yours.

 

No character's "alignment" conformed to the PC's, it was affected by just what the PC was doing. All characters had their stances on good and evil reflect the PC's actions. Eventually should a PC's actions led NPCs to go too astray they would start to dislike the PC which would lead them to leave the party or outright attack the PC.

 

Unless you're talking of how Virgil could ultimately have his entire persona be influenced by interjections with the PC and the PCs actions. He could be redeemed, or he could become evil, yes. How is this a negative for the NPC?

Edited February 18, 2006 by Role-Player

[kirottu]

I thought Arcanum had a good story, but bad main quest. It was basicly: clear a dungeon and at the end of dungeon you get location of next dungeon.

 

I enjoyed it in my frist playthrough even if it was unbalanced, but I couldn

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I thought Arcanum had a good story, but bad main quest. It was basicly: clear a dungeon and at the end of dungeon you get location of next dungeon.

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The game does suffer with this, true. However, there's at least two locations where it is not necessary to go trough. The Dredge is entirely optional as Loghaire's son can be convinced to show his father's chamber; and going to the Vendigroth ruins is also somewhat optional as players can kill Nasrudin in order to be banished into the Void.

[Nartwak]

Is the dialog to circumvent the Dredge only a matter of pursuing the correct nodes?

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Yes. I think it requires a charismatic and intelligent PC, though, as it will involve discussing a brief amount of dwarven lore and beliefs to show the PC understands and empathizes with Loghaire's plight.

[Volourn]

"there was absolutely NO place to spend any of your money (good equipment is either found or made)"

 

Eh. I spent a lot of money buying stuff Weapons, healing items, and armour were all good buys... just like every other RPG in existence...

[Diogo Ribeiro]

"there was absolutely NO place to spend any of your money (good equipment is either found or made)"

 

Eh. I spent a lot of money buying stuff Weapons, healing items, and armour were all good buys... just like every other RPG in existence...

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And components for crafting items, and ammunition for ranged weapons, and asking smiths to fix their weapons and armor. Players could also purchase Bates' mansion and a boat but these were unique, one time events.

[metadigital]

The problem was... the game was extraordinarily dull ... And the main quest was, despite the plot twists, just awful. The story made no sense, and did not excite. You were basically a survivor of a Zeppelin Crash, whisked away on all manners of tasks, and it was all somehow supposed to come together. The motivations just did not exist. ...

And the combat was awful! ...

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Yep. I didn't feel like following the story, either. Which is a shame, because the whole steampunk setting was interesting.

And the character system, although so flexible and wonderful, was so imbalanced and counter-intuitive. Beauty was the most worthless stat in the world, and character reaction meant nothing. With a sufficient intelligence, you could convince anyone to treat you like a normal person. Picking "Beat with an Ugly Stick" as a background feels almost like cheating. ...

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I didn't like the perplexing array of stats. Not that more is bad, just that there were too few ways to begin a character. I started a dozen characters trying to get one that I wanted. Birthsigns, innate talents, magic versus technology, etc. And it took so long to see how these parameters mattered in the game.

I tried to start a character who was uncommonly comely; fat chance. More chance for a lamb in mint gravy to escape from a lion's den.

And the characters had promise, but ended up being poorly developed. ... Ahgh. Virgil was made into the blandest character in the history of gaming: his ALIGNMENT even conformed to yours. His character was built to have absolutely zero tech/magic bias, and so he became weak at everything except some pathetic healing. Why on earth did Troika think it was a good idea to create a joinable NPC that could complement *any* character? He ends up losing any character of his own. The point about Joinable NPCs is that we can *pick* who our allies are!

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That was probably a case of Troika putting all their eggs in one basket: having spent so much time, money and effort on Virgil's development, they didn't want the player to skip him.

Also, I want another Steampunk game. Badly.

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Me too.

[saintfrancisnudecenterfold]

Once you develop one particular method of fighting, that is it for the rest of nearly all other games in existence.

 

Except for well implemented games with a wide selection of weapons, abilities, and spells. Usually speaking within AD&D, a single nonspellcaster character *does* develop a single method of fighting, but other roleplaying games permit that characters have fighting tactics.

 

Generally speaking, roleplaying games that permit alot of spells, a wide plethora of fighting tactics that vary as per weapon and have pertinent effect on battle.

 

Despite advice to the contrary, Troika did not develop a long list of spells for Arcanum nor a long list of inventions of all levels. It was pretty much videogame fare, the inventions, mostly having to do with combat, recovery, with the scant exceptions being inventions that had positive effect on social interactions.

 

Characters develop skills tailored to succeed at doing something in combat, and they do it; if it works why should they limit themselves?

 

And what if enemy *tactic* or fighting method (not fighting style) differs momentarily and the enemy outguesses the player (or vice versa). Really, Arcanum used a very limited system when the game setting suggests that more variety should've been used.

 

Besides, "spamming" the same attacks doesn't always work as there are enemies which have attack patterns or resistances which can require other types of attacks.

 

Very true, but this happens so very rarely and often seemed as if enemies had to be "special" to have attack patterns that made any difference whatsoever.

[Gabrielle]

I would have still bought it from the bargin bin if it had full nudity.  That doesn't bother me any.

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You buy everything from the bargain bin.

[Darque]

So it seems

[Gabrielle]

So it seems

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Bloody cheap skate he is.

[metadigital]

...And he still complains!