Intuitive Rules - 2nd Ed. AD&D vs. D&D 3E/3.5

[Cantousent]

You know something I'd like to play again is Paranoia. Great game. It takes a great GM, however. It's not so much that he needs to know the rules as he needs to have finesse, quick thinking, big balls, and the ability to back up those big balls by sheer force of will.

 

Another one from back in the day is Gamma World. I remember playing it a long time ago and it was great. It was my first exposure to a post-apocalyptic game.

 

Ultimately, for all of my protests, the ruleset doesn't matter nearly so much to me as the game.

[Jediphile]

You know something I'd like to play again is Paranoia.  Great game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, Paranoia is great

 

It does take the right people to play, though, since you just can't take it seriously.

 

It takes a great GM, however.  It's not so much that he needs to know the rules as he needs to have finesse, quick thinking, big balls, and the ability to back up those big balls by sheer force of will.

 

Another one from back in the day is Gamma World.  I remember playing it a long time ago and it was great.  It was my first exposure to a post-apocalyptic game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Never played Gamma World. I'd go for a Fallout PnP game, though. I've even considered one with GURPS rules, but then I've considered a lot of potential campaign stuff over the years...

[Darque]

I've seen a copy of GW, neat concept

 

I liked Metamorphosis Alpha also

 

Well, the idea behind it anyway

[Paladinoftyr]

Then call me a liar.. again. I found it rather intuitive. And, I was about 14 or so when 2E came out. And, none of my friends had any real trouble figuring it out.

 

Finally! A breath of fresh air!

 

I concur with this. I had the same experience. I find it surprising that the 3e advocates claim that 2ndED was so hard to learn for them. I didn't have any problems understanding it either and nor did any of my friends that I gamed with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok I came across this post and just had to say something. 3ed. is for slow witted children and dumb adults that really should not be playing D&D anyway. I think I was like 8 when Thac0 was first used and it only took me a quick reread of the rules to understand them. It is just a little bit of basic math people but I guess that is to hard for some of you. Two negatives equals a positive I learned that in the third grade. Yet, 3rd ed. needs to be around for the simpleminded masses and us 2nd ed. players will just have to learn to handle that. Just please shut up about 3rd ed. because it does suck and that is just a fact. I have DMed for both and I will never bother with 3rd EVER AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

 

May Tyr open the eyes of all nonbelievers

[Musopticon?]

Sorry, but while I learned the negative system in a matter of minutes back when I started playing BG and some custom pnp systems, it really is quite stupid. There was no real reason why the-less-the-better should be used instead of the positive system. It's anything but intuitive, that's for sure.

[Cantousent]

IP check, please.

 

Anyhow, is that you trolling in my backyard Mike? hahaha

 

Seriously, though, the folks complaining about 3rd edition try to have it both ways. It's a watered down version of 2nd edition, created to cater to dummies. It's also too complicated because of AoOs, opposed checks, concentration checks, etc.

 

The biggest problem with folks who prefer 2nd edition is that they're like Apple fans. It's not enough that they have a preferrence. It's that they must deride you because you don't share it. There are all sorts of 2nd edition DnD books out there. If you prefer it, get a group of likeminded folks together and play 2nd edition. With all the crap Wizards dumped into the 2nd edition market, it's not like you'll run out soon.

[Jediphile]

IP check, please.

 

Anyhow, is that you trolling in my backyard Mike?  hahaha

 

Seriously, though, the folks complaining about 3rd edition try to have it both ways.  It's a watered down version of 2nd edition, created to cater to dummies.  It's also too complicated because of AoOs, opposed checks, concentration checks, etc.

 

The biggest problem with folks who prefer 2nd edition is that they're like Apple fans.  It's not enough that they have a preferrence.  It's that they must deride you because you don't share it.  There are all sorts of 2nd edition DnD books out there.  If you prefer it, get a group of likeminded folks together and play 2nd edition.  With all the crap Wizards dumped into the 2nd edition market, it's not like you'll run out soon.

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But that's just the problem - there are few good 2e products, because most of the available material is, to be blunt, crap - it's just shameless hack 'n slash or dungeon crawling with little or no interesting plots or characters. 3e is geared towards that, but 2e has the potential for more. Heck, even the 2e stuff released for Mystara is pretty bad. It never ceases to amaze me that WotC said they viewed their customers as adult people and not as children like TSR did, but what they release still suggests that they they have a pretty low opinion of their customers, if you ask me...

 

Fate of Istus or Five Shall Be One are decent adventures in (2e) Greyhawk campaign. Night's Dark Terror or Wrath of the Immortals are excellent adventures for the OD&D (Mystara) game. But they just don't make them like they used to...

[Cantousent]

Yeah, but that's true for 3rd edition also. I mean, if you hate 3rd edition already, no problem. It's all crap. However, if you like the core rules, then you might want other supplements. Only thing is, the supplements are either unnecessary or terrible. I haven't read all the extra books, but I just think the extra stuff is only there to make money, not to advance the game.

[Volourn]

Can't we all just get along?

[MrBrown]

Yeah, but that's true for 3rd edition also.  I mean, if you hate 3rd edition already, no problem.  It's all crap.  However, if you like the core rules, then you might want other supplements.  Only thing is, the supplements are either unnecessary or terrible.  I haven't read all the extra books, but I just think the extra stuff is only there to make money, not to advance the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can't really vision any kind of RPG product line that wouldn't start to decline after about 5 books.

 

I think RPG producers would be better of trying to make several products that are more specific, but similar in presentation, rather than one Big product that everything else is then based upon. I think WW's WoD has kinda got it, though I can't personally say anything about the quality of their products.

[alanschu]

This thread is still alive?

 

BTW, thanks for the support Eldar

Edited June 5, 2006 by alanschu

[Cantousent]

My singular pleasure, alan.

[metadigital]

This thread is still alive?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doesn't appear to be ...

[alanschu]

Even if something is comatose, it's still alive.

[Judge Hades]

The best way to do it is get the core three 3.5e (3e) books from WotC then never buy another WotC product. There are a lot of great third party d20 System material out their that is far superior to WotC.

[Dark_Raven]

Like 2nd edition. "

[Judge Hades]

2e didn't have the OGL, and there wasn't really any good third party DnD products.

[Jediphile]

2e didn't have the OGL, and there wasn't really any good third party DnD products.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What good third-party 3e stuff is there? I haven't seen or heard of any that grows beyond the realm of straight dungeon crawl or pure hack 'n slash or both...

 

I'll stick with the classic OD&D adventure modules if I want quality, thank you very much - "Night's Dark Terror", "The Veiled Society", "Saga of the Shadow Lord", "Skarda's Mirror", or "Castle Amber" are all much better than the stuff being pushed today...

 

(Hmm, those are all Mystara...)

[Spider]

I think RPG producers would be better of trying to make several products that are more specific, but similar in presentation, rather than one Big product that everything else is then based upon. I think WW's WoD has kinda got it, though I can't personally say anything about the quality of their products.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you ask me, the WoD books are quite excellent. I've always liked the WW books and think they usually hold a fairly high quality even after they've released a lot of books. The biggest drawback in WoD version 1 is the storyline they kinda spoon fed the audience (whilte interesting to a degree, it always felt a bit forced). Now that they've ditched that and instead are just going for source modules with the occasional plot ideas thrown in, I definitely feel they're on the right track.

 

My play group (I am once again playing regualry after a very long hiatus) is currently playing mortals in WoD and it's extremely fun. And the rules are much more intuitive than any edition of D&D (to stay at least remotely on topic)

 

(Eldar said in one of his april posts that I could resurrect this thred so I did)

[Judge Hades]

What good third-party 3e stuff is there? I haven't seen or heard of any that grows beyond the realm of straight dungeon crawl or pure hack 'n slash or both...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Malhavoc Press is the most kickarse third party d20 System designers who is lead by the main guy himself, Monte Cook. There are also the Game Mechanics who have some kickin' d20 Modern material. Green Ronin is also good with their Freeport line and the True20 rules variant. Necromancer Games are good if you want to play modules that have that old school feel using the new 3.5e rules system and Sword and Sorcery has one of the most kickarse and detailed third party campaign setting, the Scarred Lands.

[Lancer]

Man this thread of mine's is STILL alive.. After half a year? Damn, I don't know if to feel flattered or ashamed that this thing is still kicking.

 

At any rate, give up your futile crusade, Hades.. I think you are the only d20 posterchild on this forum.

 

3e/d20 suck.

AD&D will live on 4-ever!

Edited June 29, 2006 by Lancer

[alanschu]

If you wouldn't revive it again....

 

Hades is far from the only person that prefers d20, as indicated in this thread alone

[Lancer]

If you wouldn't revive it again....

 

Hades is far from the only person that prefers d20, as indicated in this thread alone

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This thread was revived just 5 days ago and is the third thread on this forum.

In any case, it's you guys who have been keeping it alive for the past half year. I haven't even posted in a few months.

 

 

As for those others that prefer d20. Poor lost souls.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Lancer

[alanschu]

This thread was not revived 5 days ago. It's just when the last post was made.

[Lancer]

Just like mine's is the last post made. Let's see if you or someone revives it with new points...

 

*waits eagerly*

 

No.. not really.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Lancer