Piracy

[~Di]

Here's a thought: what if a big name developer offered a game for a much lower price only over the internet (without a publisher). Do you people think the amount of piracy for this game would be a lot less?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I don't think so. Thieves don't normally go on a buying spree of "sale" items. They steal what they want whether it's being offered at a discount or full retail, because stealing is what thieves do. Free is the ultimate discount, after all.

Edited November 22, 2005 by ~Di

[Drakron]

Nice seeing you ignore the huge paralel market in asia that exists because the usual cost of a game is 1/3 of their mensal revenue ...

 

They are not giving the CDs and DVDs for free ... they simply dont carry the huge price tag but something that people can actually arford.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yep break out the punishment stick in a big way.

 

If I ran a software house I'd employ a team of ninja :D

[Drakron]

A point I once tried to make is piracy does not make that much dent into profits because.

 

1) People could not afford the price.

2) People would not buy it.

 

Take Channel for example, every year there are millions of copies of Channel products using the Channel label ... yet they remain because their products price tags makes well beyond most wallets ability.

 

The imitations sell because they are Channel at a much lower price but also at a much lower quality.

 

Same with watches.

 

Yet you dont see anyone from that area making demands, sure they go after IP, trademark and copyright infrigement but that is to protect their IP, trademark and copyright and not actually stop then.

[Hurlshort]

Nice seeing you ignore the huge paralel market in asia that exists because the usual cost of a game is 1/3 of their mensal revenue ...

They are not giving the CDs and DVDs for free ... they simply dont carry the huge price tag but something that people can actually arford.

 

Interesting attempt at justifying the black market. I don't know how much you know about the economic and political structure of countries in Asia, but those software piracy rings in Asia are making money to fund organized crime. These are not benevolent organizations that are just trying to supply much needed games and movies to the commoners. They are profiting off the poverty of their own country.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

No one would be caught dead wearing a fake designer label or using a fake designer product (unless they were too poor to associate with that circle anyway) It would be social suicide of the highest order.

 

That arguement dosnt apply to games. For starters because games dont have a luxury market value and second because you dont publicaly display games in the same way.

[~Di]

LOL, yes my little heart just bleeds for those downtrodden, poverty-stricken folks who must rely on cheap, bootlegged copies of games to play on their Pent4, GeForce 6600, 70gigHD computers. :D

[Calax]

Personally I think the DvD's are selling horribly because of the fact some people don't have DVD drives on their computers.

 

Now movies on the other hand they are different. It's hard to protect a DVD movie.

[Lord Tingeling]

it means you are morally bankrupt.

 

Nah.

[kumquatq3]

Bottom line, I think piracy should be stopped (or at least fought) the same way other crime is... by vigorously prosecuting the thieves.  That means going after not only the owners of websites offering pirated downloads, but also the "customers" of these websites.  Nothing like being arrested and fined to make someone think twice about stealing that next game.

 

Eventually I suspect that game download sites, like music download sites, will have charges tacked on that will go back to development companies, and as new illegal sites pop up the "web cops" will hit them fast and hard where it hurts... in the pocketbook.  If there is no price to pay for crime, then crime runs rampant.  Wanna stop piracy?  Prosecute the pirates.  Make it hurt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A couple of problems:

 

1. It's not like this is just Joe Blow down the block. They would LOVE to be "vigorously prosecuting", but other countries are not going to let that happen. I mean, you literally have Bush going over to China with one of his major talking points being that China needs to enforce copyright laws more effectively.

 

That screams "lack of serious cooperation" to me.

 

So as it stands "vigorously prosecuting" is a "pipe dream".

 

2. The popular will to see a war on piracy isn't there. It's almost like a war on speeding. Sure, people will say their for it in general, but they don't really care and will quickly backlash if it did happen (see: Sony's latest anti-piracy trick that has brought a lawsuit from Texas or all the stories about fining Grandmothers and such when the companies do sue). People don't see downloading a song or game as "morally bankrupt". Not in general (nor should they, imo, but the problem is that it is viewed as a innocent crime).

 

The companies are not retarded, neither is their lawyers. Their not suing everyone for a reason.

 

Not to meantion the cost. Thats why they attack the software companies, much more time and cost efficient I'm sure.

 

3. For those who blame "lagging sales" (which is silly to begin with) on piracy, No. If piracy didn't exist, most of those download games would NOT be turned into sales.

 

None of this is supposed to justifies anything, but in terms of fighting piracy and piracys actual effects, I just don't see where some of you are coming from.

 

There is NO easy answer.

Edited November 22, 2005 by kumquatq3

[Lord Tingeling]

I think some of you need to get back to reality.

 

Just think, in the time the "profit maker" sells one copy, 1000's of copies could be DL'ed from the web.

 

Now, the spreaders for the DL may not get cash out of it, but guess what gives more loss to the music company if it get's pirated, 1 CD (of the "profit maker", or 1000 (from DL)?

 

Yeah, hot damn. Because that's usually the way these things go. For every million or so sold copy of, say, Diablo, there's A BILLION of people just clicking said god-forsaken wishy-washy pinko commie link, depriving Blizzard of their hard-earned bucks.

 

Piracy is indeed stealing. It is the act of using a product without paying for it. Morally and legally, it is theft, pure and simple.

 

I thought about changing the above to something more connected to reality and then go "fixed" in my normal, unfunny way, but then decided against it. Suffice to say, the legal part to your post is very iffy, and depending in which country you might find yourself in, outright wrong.

 

But then again, you know best, I guess. I still have fond memories of when you teached Silverbow how it really was in Slovakia when he was a wee lad.

 

 

Oh, and speaking of piracy, I'll be visiting DreamHack in a few days. The world's largest LAN, as it happens (and about the only thing we stupid Swedes got right, at that!). They recently removed their "No DC++ hubs on the official network" policy, and as it stands currently file sharing is illegal in Sweden.

 

I am quite looking forward to seeing more than five thousand people get "vigorously prosecuted". Should make quite the show.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Lord Tingeling

[Janmanden]

Laws are needed to protect us from those that breaks them, and they work, but they don't prevent crime. The witch hunt isn't the solution....it never were. There are only two people in the world that can stop piracy and it's you and me.

 

Edit: Maybe pay-per-play can be done eventually and help us too.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Janmanden

[Darque]

There's only one way to stop PC piracy.

 

Stop making PC games.

 

It's like the old saying used to go....

 

...Locks only keep honest people out.

 

Thieves will steal no matter what... no matter what lock you place in front of them, they'll find a way around it, over it, or through it.

[LadyCrimson]

1) I agree with Di's basic stance that piracy is stealing. If you download a game or an entire music CD etc. and never go out and buy the 'real thing' that's theft.

 

However...I too think there is no real way to stop it. People who are determined to steal/have something without paying for it are going to steal until something in their life changes to alter their attitude - either their financial situation or their mental views. Since the dawn of man, crime (and all it's 'justifications/rationales') has been there, and I believe it'll always be there, because I'm a pessimist about human nature. :D

 

2) On the other side, because of the way I was socially brought up, I do not neccesarily think it's stealing if you paid for copy of a game or movie etc. and then let someone else borrow it or use it or have it when you're done. You bought it, it's yours, you should have the right to do with it what you want, right? And yet...think about the book industry. People buy them, give them away to friends when they're done, or even sell them to used book stores. Do the book companies get any profit from that? I highly doubt it. Yet it's an acceptable thing to do and is not (socially) considered stealing, even tho it does not give the book publishers any 'new sales' and thus revenue. How much of the 'loss' of book sales are actually more from people 'borrowing' books from friends to read rather than actual pure theft?

 

It's a fine line sometimes between those two things, don't you think?

 

In a very technical sense, IMO, it's all stealing in one fashion or another - it's just where you choose to draw the line & what is socially acceptable. At some point, everyone has 'taken away' from the profit of a company in some fashion, for whatever reasons, whether noble/practical/shameful/evil. It would be nice if piracy were stopped, but sometimes the line gets fuzzy, and the internet/tech capabilities without an alteration in social views keeps stretching the line further out, I think...you have to change the social attitudes about what makes up theft before any change, either way, really occurs.

 

Hand me down clothes, anyone? :D

[Child of Flame]

I have been pirating music since the Sony Rootkit dealie, because the only thing I play my music on is my computer, and I don't want to risk it being infected by nasties from Sony or anyone else.

 

I tried to pirate a copy of the Ulitmate Spiderman game for PC before buying it, to see if they'd kept the horrid control scheme from the PC version of Spiderman 2, my connection was too slow to complete it though, and I was planning on buying it if it wasn't so goshawful this time around.

[Hurlshort]

I don't think anyone is arguing that lending your copy of a game to a friend is piracy. Taking that copy, making a dozen copies, and handing them out to all your friends at school is.

 

You can't "dupe" clothing and books (you can, but that's difficult, and actually has been subject to lawsuits as well) in real life, so I'm not sure how that argument can work here.

 

I enjoy watching people try and justify their piracy. The only good argument I've seen is the pron one because...well...I'm actually guilty of that.

[LadyCrimson]

I don't think anyone is arguing that lending your copy of a game to a friend is piracy. 

 

Didn't say anyone was.

 

Taking that copy, making a dozen copies, and handing them out to all your friends at school is. 

 

I'd agree. But if a dozen copies is not ok, should one copy handed out to your bestest friend be not ok?

 

You can't "dupe" clothing and books (you can, but that's difficult, and actually has been subject to lawsuits as well) in real life, so I'm not sure how that argument can work here.

 

I was making a certain point about social attitudes and lines, not about whether or not you can dupe something, or whether or not anything is actually 'justified' - a point I think you missed.

Edited November 22, 2005 by LadyCrimson

[Pidesco]

Here's a thought: what if a big name developer offered a game for a much lower price only over the internet (without a publisher). Do you people think the amount of piracy for this game would be a lot less?

 

No, I don't think so. Thieves don't normally go on a buying spree of "sale" items. They steal what they want whether it's being offered at a discount or full retail, because stealing is what thieves do. Free is the ultimate discount, after all.

 

I'm not saying that it would eliminate piracy. It' just that I think some people turn to piracy because they just can't afford the games, and if the games were considerably cheaper these people would buy them instead pirating them.

 

Does anyone know what percentage of a games price goes to the developer?

[Janmanden]

I don't think that the price really means anything vs. piracy.

 

People that use copied games are not pirates, even though the act is considered piracy. They are misguided. That's why I say that only you and me can stop it. We are rolemodels and guides ourselves - we need to safe them from eternal damnation, they need to see the light...but without any of that selfrighteous ranting.

 

Everybody wants to have fun, but for some odd reason they don't actively look ahead for more fun...by investing in the future. I guess they probably need more incentive. Imagine that, if by registering a game that you were actually able to play it...or received a service of equal value...a reason to actually own and a reason not to copy - since you wouldn't be able to register and play and get all the goodies.

[Meshugger]

So in order to stop thieves, the goods should be made even more appealing?  That makes no sense to me.  I've yet to see the enhancement of a product's value turn would-be thieves into moral, upstanding citizens who say, in effect, "Gee, this XXXX is now so wonderful that I will no longer steal it, I will pay for it instead."  Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your meaning, but I don't believe that the victims should be held responsible for the behavior of those who steal from them.

 

The general public is shallow, you want the extended editions of the LOTR movies on your HDD?(ripped, no extras), or do you want it nicely packaged, filled with extras on your bookshelf? Look at the salesfigures for it.

 

Piracy is not an overblown problem to those who depend upon revenues from pirated products in order to pay their own bills.  I think if you ask anyone in the video game industry how serious piracy is to their financial stability, you'll find they consider it close to if not the Number One problem in the industry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mark Rein of Epic Games think that piracy is a non-issue, the same do Warren Spector.

 

Take the anime-industry for example, they(the japanese) care less if it's spread through the internet, as long it gets more recognition.

[BattleCookiee]

Just think, in the time the "profit maker" sells one copy, 1000's of copies could be DL'ed from the web.

 

Now, the spreaders for the DL may not get cash out of it, but guess what gives more loss to the music company if it get's pirated, 1 CD (of the "profit maker", or 1000 (from DL)?

 

Yeah, hot damn. Because that's usually the way these things go. For every million or so sold copy of, say, Diablo, there's A BILLION of people just clicking said god-forsaken wishy-washy pinko commie link, depriving Blizzard of their hard-earned bucks.

 

Lol, did you write what I think you did?

 

I wasn't talking about per copy 1000 illegal copies get downloaded. I was talking about why DL'ing was more of a problem than "burn and sellers", that spread illegal software ALOT slower...

 

Read before posting...

Don't just start ripping things FAR out of their context

Edited November 22, 2005 by Battlewookiee

[Hurlshort]

Lady Crimson wrote:

How much of the 'loss' of book sales are actually more from people 'borrowing' books from friends to read rather than actual pure theft?

 

I Wrote:

I don't think anyone is arguing that lending your copy of a game to a friend is piracy.

 

Your response:

Didn't say anyone was.

 

Clearly, you are. Here is the real parallel:

 

Clothing that is developed cheaply in sweat shops and then sold at undercut prices.

compares to-

Books that are re-printed en mass and unbinded and sold without permission.

compare to-

Games that are made easily available for download or copied on to CD's en mass.

 

What is en mass? Tough question. I would say more than one, but if you make three copies of something, no one will break down your door and arrest you. I don't really know the answer to that one, I just know that piracy is stealing from the hard work of others.

[~Di]

Eh, this topic has been debated for years and I doubt anyone's mind has ever been changed by something said during these discussions. I still think that eventually the video game industry will have to go the route of the music industry, and prosecute large sites that offer illegal games for download. The music industry actually made some headway in getting paid for music downloads by slapping injunctions on various sites, issuing subpoenas for customer data such as their servers, etc, and randoming going after some of those customers to prove that they could. I'm too lazy to look up legal analysis of all those cases, but it seems to me that they threatened to report customers of illegal download sites to their servers. In a nutshell, it became too costly and too dangerous to continue to host illegal music downloads for most folks, so they all went to the bargaining table.

 

Fair enough, not every country on the planet is on board. Some countries don't even offer video games for sale; others, like China, have never really respected the copyright laws of other countries (although they sure as heck respect their own copyright on new Olympic stuff! lol... but that's another topic!)

 

Still the music/movie industries efforts are a start, and the web is still in its infancy. Eventually there will be ways to control illegal web activity worldwide, but right now those who are being hurt the most must suck it in and pay for the legal costs that will pave the way for future controls. I think once the video industry can get itself together with enough power and money to follow suit on its own behalf, we'll see similar prosecutions for illegal gaming download sites.

 

Meanwhile, those who want to steal the product of others will continue to do so, and will continue to mock anyone who calls a thief a thief.

 

P. S. Once you've paid for a game (or a book or any other product), you are entitled by law to give it away, loan it repeatedly, or use it as a coaster. You cannot, however, make illegal copies of it for loan or sale, nor can you put it on your website and allow it to be downloaded.

[Calax]

I don't think anyone is arguing that lending your copy of a game to a friend is piracy. 

 

Didn't say anyone was.

 

Taking that copy, making a dozen copies, and handing them out to all your friends at school is. 

 

I'd agree. But if a dozen copies is not ok, should one copy handed out to your bestest friend be not ok?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or what if you burn yourself a copy so you can still use it when the disk it came on dies?

[BattleCookiee]

Or what if you burn yourself a copy so you can still use it when the disk it came on dies?

 

That is legal as long as you do not distribute it...

 

If you can't make a copy for own use the creator of that disk is in violation with the law, not that they seem to care...

Edited November 22, 2005 by Battlewookiee