homosexuality in RPGs

[FaramirK]

One day, one day.

 

Seems to be getting more common now, anyhow. Jade Empire of course. Could you have gay relationships in the Sims? I never really played it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I inquired with my better half, and yes, you can have two men/women kiss etc in the Sims, but I'd hardly herald the Sims series as a groundbreaking treatse on portraying serious relationships in videogames... :D

 

But look on the bright side, now I can spend $50 on a video game instead of thousands on real home improvements/shopping sprees etc.

[Cloris]

I believe that only Christianity and Islam have any dogmatic negative stance on homosexuality, and even those have many adherants who are either support or are homosexual.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed, but there seems to be a glut of folks that think how WASPs do or think a thing is how it is done or thought everywhere.

 

With games there's perhaps a greater chance of prejudiced people becoming offended, as the game asks you to play the role of the main character rather than just watching him/her. Being bisexual myself i don't fully understand how people would be 'uncomfortable' playing the role of a character with a different sexuality to their own, but it surely offends some who dislike homosexuality.

 

It seems hard to imagine a Star Wars game featuring a known homosexual character, as none of the films have featured one, and to my knowledge, none of the novels or comics. I'm not sure the Star Wars universe is 'innocent' as someone suggested earlier, just old fashioned. Not at all bigoted (I like the large number of alien characters given key roles but notice how thin on the ground strong women are in the series) but certainly old fashioned. Playing the original KOTOR yesterday I coerced Zalbaar into murdering his 14 year old best friend. That's not innocent, and similar stuff happens within the otherwise fairytale world with some regularity.

 

I figure an acurate number of non-stereotyped, non comic-relief gay characters in games is on its way. But, like gay marriage and however many other rights, it'll be a while coming yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with what you said about bigoted consumers -- their money is just as green as anyone elses. Popular culture both reflects and influences popular behavior, though, and I think we are starting to see a bit more acceptance and significantly more tolerance regarding sexuality. I have spoken to a fair number of college classes regarding non-mainstream sexuality, and it is gratifying to see the students become less blindly outraged each passing year.

 

To me, it seems ludicrious that with all the variations in human sexuality alone, combined with alien and droid aspects, that the only real intimacy we see in SW is still between two white heterosexuals -- that seems peculiar. I find your statement regarding strong female characters to be spot on!

 

Too true, change is on the march, and everytime we do something as seemingly small as correct a misconception on a forum, or ask for better representation in our media, we are helping make that change happen in a very real and important way. Action, no matter how small, coupled with patience, produces peaceful results.

 

Both good points. I absolutely agree that the best option would be to choose orientation, as in Jade Empire or Fable.

 

And yes, games wouldn't be as fun without the stereotyping. But only the good-natured stereotyping I played the new Lesiure Suit Larry recently for example, and laughed my ass off at the gay stereotypes. Maybe I was going overboard earlier, but I don't think we're a very small minority. Well, perhaps amongst gamers we are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed. Stereotypes are important elements of storytelling; and I have no problem with going for the laugh. It is the repeated use of negative generalizations for the purpose of polluting popular opinion (the misconception quoted at the beginning of this thread is a good example) in order to maintain a stilted social order that must be guarded against at every turn.

 

Oh, hell: now I sound like a bloody academic, even if my spelling skills are inadequate for the task!

 

Kalfear, I recommend that you study the sociological parallels between Loving v Virginia and Lawerence v Texas, both U.S. Supreme Court cases in order to better understand that yes, Darth Butch is not only speculating wisely but is most likely correct. We have gone through this before, and no doubt will again. The process of equal rights can take upwards of a century to begin to achieve, but that is exactly what is happening. If you would like more information, please let me know and I will do my best to make it available to you but I fear we will soon be way off topic if it is continued here.

 

You make a very good point. Perhaps I have been desensitized from all the violent movies that have been produced, which is why I don't find all the killing in Star Wars disturbing.

When I said the Star Wars universe was innocent, I meant that it seems to be toned down enough to show to all viewers. So what I'm saying is that if you put homosexuality into Star Wars games, or even movies, parents will start to question the franchise. I'm sure that many parents would not like their children watching yoda makeout with chewbacca, or something like that. Sorry, just wanted to add some humor :D Personally, I don't really care if they have this option in a Star Wars game. But you get my point, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think I do -- and I am glad that we are both looking at someone else's point of view! What do you think of what I wrote above about intimacy in SW?

 

Eru, I do not find the discussion of hate crime legislation to be germane to this thread, could you please explain how that relates to representation of alternative lifestyles in popular media such as video games? Perhaps I missed something...

 

For the Star Wars universe to have no homosexuals is no more or less bizarre than if it had no women, or no men.  I'm sure that  would arouse comment.  Sadly, it's common in the media for many different kinds of people to be invisible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly! Thank you for saying this better than I could have. This very discussion illustrates your point.

 

I find this to be a very interesting discussion; encouraging and sometimes disturbing in its subtle bigotry but enlightening on all fronts. I suppose I should say this: I have studied sexuality, its social context and other related issues for over a decade and I hae spoken to groups ranging from the general public to students going into clinical fields to health and mental health professionals on this topic. So I find every related thread to be of interest! In any case, I say that so that it makes more sense when I say something like "see this case law for more information." It's kind of my thing, I'm not just mouthing off.

 

Cloris

[Child of Flame]

"Looks like a good way of deterring stupid fights. Shame on the ACLU for interfering with my natural right to deck anyone who doesn't agree with me."

 

Wow, that's like completely missing the point?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I think it's hitting the more important point, which is that fighting in bars is illegal and that if you attack someone, you have to accept responsibility for it. Protesting that your victim is prosecuting you for a hate crime rather than assault is just a way of making it all somebody else's fault. "It's not my fault, it's that gay's fault."

 

I would hope that if you don't hate gays, the trial would reveal that and you would be found innocent of hate crime and guilty of common assault, but given that hate crime against gays does exist, it seems reasonable that this be tested in a court.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You're so naiive, it's adorable! Faith in the court system, HA! Can I pinch your cheek, I know you're probably a decade or so older than me, but still, you don't see childlike optimism like that every day!

 

 

Eru, I do not find the discussion of hate crime legislation to be germane to this thread, could you please explain how that relates to representation of alternative lifestyles in popular media such as video games? Perhaps I missed something...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Honestly, I couldn't think of anything else to say. I consider myself of the Christian faith, however those parts of the Bible that disagree with homosexuality disagree with me, and I don't understand why that of all things would be included. Incest, no problem (Onan was killed for NOT screwing his family member. ), genocide, sure thing, but don't you dare touch other dude's wang or else you're going to hell.

 

I think it's of interest Jesus never said anything about it one way or the other, of course that was his style, don't condemn, lead by example.

 

I mentioned the hate crimes because it's the one aspect of homosexuality (that could possibly affect me, I don't really get into fights though) that I don't like, that's been made possible through legislation in recent years.

[213374U]

I really don't see what the fuss is all about. SW will never have homosexuality in it, because that's the way its creator wants it. It's a fictional universe with green dwarf grammar bitches and the Force, but no homos. And I'd rather it'd stay that way. Not because I don't like homosexuals, but because I don't share the idea that it must have them for the sake of "realism" or "equality".

 

Sorry, it's GL's universe. If you don't like it, too bad for you. He's not going to change it just because you'd like to see some action between Obi and Ani.

 

Other than that, I'm not especially bothered by homo/bi options in other CRPGs, as long as they're subtle and I'm not forced to develop them.

[Volourn]

Um. SW has had homosexuality in it...

[Kaftan Barlast]

It has? Where?!

 

 

 

This latest discussion reminds me of the bizarity of the black Vulcan in Star Trek Voyager. There are no african-alien Vulcans, damnit! A black Vulcan is like an albino wookie. doesnt happen.

[Volourn]

KOTOR. Juhani. Sweetness. Her, and her former Master were 'close' if you know what I mean. Juhani, and the PC cna do google eyes later on very subtly (or not so subtly).

[Kaftan Barlast]

oh, that old cat.. i thought you mean somewhere that counts

[><FISH'>]

star trek sucks.

[Cloris]

This latest discussion reminds me of the bizarity of the black Vulcan in Star Trek Voyager. There are no african-alien Vulcans, damnit! A black Vulcan is like an albino wookie. doesnt happen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am almost embarased to let this much of my geekiness show, but here it goes...

 

If you think for a moment about what you wrote, you'd see the flaw in your logic, and this is where that WASP mentaility that I wrote about above comes into play: why would a dark-skinned Vulcan be bizaare? Hmmm, a harsh-sunned volcanic planet produce dark-skinned populations? No way! It would be far more unlikely that it would produce light-skinned people if you would take just a moment to think about it.

 

Back to the topic: can one of you that have posted in oposition to the protrayal of alternative sexuality in video games further explain why you hold that position? We are all opinionated, that much is certain, and I do not seek to force anyone to change their mind, but I do seek a further understanding of that position and would appreciate help in that regard.

 

Cloris

[213374U]

star trek sucks.

That is relevant to the topic how?

[Kaftan Barlast]

I am almost embarased to let this much of my geekiness show, but here it goes...

 

If you think for a moment about what you wrote, you'd see the flaw in your logic, and this is where that WASP mentaility that I wrote about above comes into play: why would a dark-skinned Vulcan be bizaare? Hmmm, a harsh-sunned volcanic planet produce dark-skinned populations? No way! It would be far more unlikely that it would produce light-skinned people if you would take just  a moment to think about it.

 

 

*simpsons comic book guy voice*

 

 

Evidence A. Up until the premiere of Star trek voyager, there had never been a black Vulcan shown in any of the many films and television series episodes. Not a single one.

 

Evidence B. The Vulcans are a highly evolved society who has existed for tens of thousands of year living in total unity. Under these circumstances, it is impossible to retain ethnical diversity, resulting in a complete homogenisation of the species.

 

Evidence C. The planet Vulcan has no climate zones, the entire planet is Arid. So it is impossible for a part of the population to adapt so specific living conditions since those conditions are identical over the entire surface of the planet.

[Cloris]

*simpsons comic book guy voice*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Teehee! I don't want to debate the Vulcan thing, although I think we could -- I just wanted to thank you for the laugh (even if I did almost spray Cup of Noodles all over my LCD).

 

Cloris

[cewekeds]

I think if the story good and adds depth then all option should be added if possible. I'm secure enough to play a gay PC with no problem will I relate it all depends on the story.

 

Last I checked you can't just punch somebody in the face over words. If the guy a jerk hopfully the people around you will see whats happening. It won't become a hate crime unless you start calling him names like f*****, n***** etc... while you keep beating him the ground. Don't throw the first punch and your in the clear. Hell you can call him any names you want and if he attacks you its his fault. Hate crime really hard to prove in court with gays. 1. they have to prove you knew a person gay. 2. They have to prove you dislike gays. 3. they have to prove the reason you attack this person is because his gay.

[Padmi Skydrunkard]

star trek sucks.

That is relevant to the topic how?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe Star Trek has badly written elements of homosexuality in it?

 

Since in older RPGs the option of playing as female would have probably been rather rare(at least a properly proportioned one without double breast implants), then it is only logical to allow the inclusion of other commonly excluded groups into games.

 

Perhaps it will take longer for Star Wars than others, but surely it is inevitable? Unless the conservatives take over again...which for some reason gives me a mental image of me and other women being chased indoors and handed a broom, by a mob of grey-haired cranky old men

[metadigital]

... Although I am in favor of gay options in video games I know that my next question will aggravate other people in support of a gay option. My next question is if specifically RPG games should give a person the option to design a character without limitations would you be in support of having a pedophile option? I seriously doubt it as neither I but we have to look at the situation from a neutral perspective. Is being romantically attracted to someone underage worse than being a cold - blooded murderer of innocents?

So the real question is where do we draw the line and why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even though this has been covered in adequate detail previously, I have a comment, too.

 

There are precious few games where the protagonist is a serial killer. (I never played "Man Hunt", nor do I wish to; even that "Hitman" series is mostly offensive for commoditizing murder (of undesirables), much the way a vigilante might, and I found that too limited to play, too). GTA, for all the hype, is about being a better criminal, which, ironically, helps remove the criminals from the cities. (So you could argue that the protagonist could always do an Al Pacino in The Godfather Part III and exercise contrition to become a reformed repenter. :D )

 

Murder is a staple, but we are constantly killing d

[Child of Flame]

... Although I am in favor of gay options in video games I know that my next question will aggravate other people in support of a gay option. My next question is if specifically RPG games should give a person the option to design a character without limitations would you be in support of having a pedophile option? I seriously doubt it as neither I but we have to look at the situation from a neutral perspective. Is being romantically attracted to someone underage worse than being a cold - blooded murderer of innocents?

So the real question is where do we draw the line and why?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even though this has been covered in adequate detail previously, I have a comment, too.

 

There are precious few games where the protagonist is a serial killer. (I never played "Man Hunt", nor do I wish to; even that "Hitman" series is mostly offensive for commoditizing murder (of undesirables), much the way a vigilante might, and I found that too limited to play, too). GTA, for all the hype, is about being a better criminal, which, ironically, helps remove the criminals from the cities. (So you could argue that the protagonist could always do an Al Pacino in The Godfather Part III and exercise contrition to become a reformed repenter. :D )

 

Murder is a staple, but we are constantly killing d

[metadigital]

I agree with just about everything in this post, and will even add it was stated excellently, but I would like it if you could extrapolate on your opinion of the Hitman games. 

 

I assume you haven't played them, or at least haven't played them extensively, or something, because Agent 47 is a good guy.  He is a good guy who makes his living killing, but it's not too much different from someone like Sam Fisher, or Gordan Freeman. 

 

It was established in Hitman 2, that he has a very strong conscience, he felt guilty over all the people he had sent to their graves (even though they were arguably really bad dudes), so much so, he sought religion, and was living at a church. 

 

At the end of Hitman 2, he was given a rosary, it is assumed he still has it and carries it around.  He is more or less a practicing Catholic. 

 

All the actual hits you're supposed to carry out, are for very, very bad men.  Mostly terrorists, always murderers of one sort or another. 

 

The only time you kill innocents is when you're going after all the extra weapons, otherwise, killing innocents, or even flunkies (i.e. anyone who is not your target, but associated with them), you lose points. 

 

The emphasis on the Hitman games, is take out the bad dude, with the least amount of collateral damage (ideally none).

 

He doesn't even sell drugs (hell, he's been known to take out the occassional Opium Lord), make money off of prostitution, or purvey smut.  I find it disturbing you think Tommy Vercetti or any of the other GTA characters are better guys than him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on. I haven't played the Hitman series, so I was talking out of school. (I did play a demo of one of them, but I didn't really get into it: more about the controls than the ideology, though " )

 

So I would have to defer to your analysis of the games as I have no first hand experience. Nice to hear that I was correct in my assessment, though, in that people don't play games to murder people, but to stop injustices. (Role playing evil dudes aside, of course. :D )

[213374U]

And you should play the Hitmans... damn cool games. :cool:

[mkreku]

And you should play the Hitmans... damn cool games. :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, they're cool. Except for the fact that you probably need to be a hitman in real life to be able to complete them. They're extremely difficult games! (I only played Hitman and Hitman 2 though)

[metadigital]

And you should play the Hitmans... damn cool games. :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, I shall.

[Cloris]

[Murder is a staple, but we are constantly killing d

[metadigital]

Yeah, heaven help the Hollywood producers; now they have to atually provide bad guys that are not a cliche. They can't just rely on an accent, look, or mannerism; now they actually have to give the writers more authority. Whatever will they do with their makrketing forecasts?

 

Evilness based on the content of their characters? Where have I heard that before ...

 

(That's why I like Kreia.)

[213374U]

Yeah, only Kreia wasn't evil. Just senile.

[Invoker]

Yeah, only Kreia wasn't evil. Just senile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With Senility comes great power. Just look at how she whacked all the three Masters in the Enclave.