Gamespot's Rumor Control

[Ekkest]

Why is everybody so angry about the game? Sure, the ending was confusing and could (and was going to be) a lot better, but that doesn't mean that the 20-40 hours you put into the game are worth nothing and that the game is a complete peice of crap. It's not. KOTORII was a great, excellent game marred by a convoluted ending, but that still makes it a great game regardless.

[GhostofAnakin]

For those of you who are a bit on the slow side, that means he's got responsibilities, other than indulging the raging fanboys who are so horribly disappointed by the unfinished state of the game that they sign up in the developer's boards to whine and moan, but not disappointed enough to return the game and move on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The bolded part is what I don't understand the most. I've played games in the past that have annoyed me and disappointed me a great deal, most recently Vampire: the Masquerade-Bloodlines. I posted on their forum for a couple of weeks to comment on my disappointment, then did something that these repeated whiners who stick around here for months don't seem to have a grasp of: I traded in the game and stopped posting on that site. Or if I couldn't return the game, I uninstalled it and moved on, just vowing not to buy another game from that developer until I saw proof their next game was better.

 

I just don't get it.

[phiont]

I've played games in the past that have annoyed me and disappointed me a great deal, most recently Vampire: the Masquerade-Bloodlines.  I posted on their forum for a couple of weeks to comment on my disappointment, then did something that these repeated whiners who stick around here for months don't seem to have a grasp of: I traded in the game and stopped posting on that site.  Or if I couldn't return the game, I uninstalled it and moved on, just vowing not to buy another game from that developer until I saw proof their next game was better.

 

I just don't get it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I heard something similar from George W Bush supporters who asked, "Why should the people of Canada care so much about who we vote for president? You don't see us complaining about the leader of Canada." The reality is that Canada's leader just doesn't matter as much in the world as America's leader.

 

Similarly, Vampire: the Masquerade-Bloodlines just doesn't have the huge following that the Star Wars saga has. No matter how badly Vampire could ever be messed up it would never have the scale of impact that mishandling a Star Wars chapter does.

 

 

 

The truth of the matter is that

much like a movie a certain amount of the game ends up on the cutting

room floor.  This is often because the original ideas or design just

don't make sense when put in the context of the final game as it is

being put together.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And as much as we all appreciate the tandem feedback from Feargus Urquhart and Mike Gallo, it would be worth so much more if they could be a bit more specific. Merely stating that using the cut content wouldn't "make sense" is not going to help the existing product to suddenly make sense. For example:

 

Why did it not make sense to include Atton's death scene?

 

How could it possibly make more sense to leave in the GOTO vs Remote scene?

 

Feargus, we are all willing to meet you more than halfway on issues like these if you simply give us a bit more to go on. Believe it or not, nobody here actually wants to believe it was a rush job, but so far, you're not really giving us much choice.

[Delerius_Jedi]

This is what was sent to Gamespot as the official comment from LucasArts and Obsidian:

 

"We've heard from some people that they feel there was another ending

that was not realized in the shipping version of the Star Wars Knights

of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords.  The truth of the matter is that

much like a movie a certain amount of the game ends up on the cutting

room floor.  This is often because the original ideas or design just

don't make sense when put in the context of the final game as it is

being put together.

 

When it comes to KOTOR II, there was material cut at various times in

the game's making, including at the end of the game's development cycle.

We don't feel that the amount of material was much more or less than we

have had to cut from any of the other games that any of us have worked

on.

 

Ultimately, both Mike and I are proud of the game and of the talented

people at Obsidian who made it with the assistance of LucasArts.

 

Sincerely,

 

Feargus Urquhart, Obsidian CEO & President

Mike Gallo, LucasArts Producer"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mr Urquhart: While I do understand that you as CEO cannot simply dennounce your publisher or the way they do buisiness, this statement does seem like an attempt to defuse a potential volatile situation before it gets to far out of hand. Your previous replies to quiries regarding the cut content made to gamers via emails that were sent to you regarding this issue and which clearly brought up where the storyline leaves everyone hanging seems to contradict what you are saying in your above statement.

 

Furthermore: The sudden disappearence of the thread started by Obsidian co-founder and KotOR2 Lead Designer Chris Avellone about Obsidian requesting LucasArts' permission to release a content patch for KotOR2 seems to add credence to the fact that this is simply an attempt by LucasArts to make people stop focusing on this issue.

 

As has been stated previously in this thread: These aren't gripes we're talking about; it's major plot points that, when added up just doesn't come together to form a cohesive ending to an otherwise good game. I am fully aware that cuts have to be made during game development, but those cuts should not be major plot-points that end up compromising the story-telling. And I do believe that you and the rest of your team are aware of this. And that is why people here are still talking about it; because KotOR2 ended up comprimising its storytelling to make Christmas 2004.

[absinthewfaust]

This is often because the original ideas or design just

don't make sense when put in the context of the final game as it is

being put together.

 

the final retail version didn't make much sense either!

 

if the kotor2 final product that is on store shelves now is any indication of "original ideas or design," then i'd hate to see how they plan on butchuring the neverwinter nights franchise.

 

 

Ultimately, both Mike and I are proud of the game and of the talented

people at Obsidian who made it with the assistance of LucasArts.

 

Sincerely,

 

Feargus Urquhart, Obsidian CEO & President

Mike Gallo, LucasArts Producer"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

no they will not openly admit, ever, that lucas put thier iron fist of 'must get holiday sales' deadline down on them. in the end, the result was an unfinished, half assed product, that they knew the masses would go out and blindly purchase, becasue of the success of the first kotor.

 

the game is unfinished and half assed. and now the ceo of the developer is openly stating that the end product met thier vision of how they wanted the game to be.

 

so here's to aurora and her crew being able to do what the original developers didn't, or couldn't or wouldn't...

 

i pray nwn2 is a beautiful thing, not a bargain bin - fire sale of the week. <_<

[Mad_Scientist]

the game is unfinished and half assed. and now the ceo of the developer is openly stating that the end product met thier vision of how they wanted the game to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He said they were proud of the work they did. There is a difference.

 

Really, what are people expecting from an official response? "Yep. We rushed the game to get it out by Christmas 2004 on at least one platform. Thanks for the sales... suckers!"? I mean, come on, and be reasonable people.

 

Though I do admit that this official respone really didn't seem to answer everything, and sidesteped a couple of things. But still, give Feargus a break, and realize that he a CEO with responsiblities to his company's employees, and coming out and saying "YES! Lucasarts rushed us, it's all their fault!" is probably not something that's going to help Obsidian's future relationships with publishers, even if it is true. Plus, for all we know, Obsidian is in the middle of trying to convince Lucasarts to fund a content patch and/or expansion pack, and therefore doesn't want to do anything to annoy them. Though maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part.

[phiont]

...

 

Plus, for all we know, Obsidian is in the middle of trying to convince Lucasarts to fund a content patch and/or expansion pack, and therefore doesn't want to do anything to annoy them. Though maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My part too.

 

In fact, if that's not the case then it's truly tragic for it to be taking so long for a mere bug patch to be released. At least then, the modding community would have a relatively bug-free platform with which to pick up the baton from where Lucas Arts dropped it.

[Sneaky Smurf]

Additional content would be wonderful, but I could easily live with bugfixes...

 

I really want to win the swooptrack races, but im always disqualified

 

KOTOR2 as it is is a extremely fun RPG and is leagues ahead of any other rpg to come out in the last 12 months, I think we all need to remember that sometimes.

[Hive]

LOL, you guys really crack me up. Perhaps you should re-read Feargus' siggy thing. It clearly reads "CEO, Obsidian Entertainment, Inc". For those of you who are a bit on the slow side, that means he's got responsibilities, other than indulging the raging fanboys who are so horribly disappointed by the unfinished state of the game that they sign up in the developer's boards to whine and moan, but not disappointed enough to return the game and move on.

 

Not *everyone* have the option to return the game, and not *everyone* enjoys throwing money away.

 

Yes, kids, his responsibilities go beyond that. Despite what mummy says, you aren't the center of the universe, and people can't risk their livelihood just to make you happy.

 

Wtf? Are you arguing that it's ok to sell people unfinished products just because you might risk losing money yourself if you do not? What kind of selfish and deceiptful attitude is that?

 

Feargus isn't going to come along and say "hell yeah, half of the game was cut because LA didn't like it and they wanted to have a holiday release".

 

No, he likely isn't. But that doesn't make it anymore right.

 

It just isn't going to happen, and the sooner you realize that, the happier everyone will be, and the less electrons you will waste flooding these boards with complaints nobody really cares about.  )

 

Nobody cares? Newsflash: look around, dude. This board is filled with posts complaining about KotOR II being incomplete. There are internet sites with editorials addressing the issue, there's even a petition. Now YOU might not care, but you are not *everyone*. And you accuse others of seing themselves as the center of the universe? lol

 

I am aware that Feargus have little choice in this matter, and that Obsidian have been put in an unfortunate position by LucasArts. But that doesn't relieave either from their responsibility to their customers.

[manitsbuggy]

Feargus and OE obviously need PR management. KOTOR II is mostly a good game but OE and LA are both guilty of rushing a PC GOTY and STAR WARS game to market for the benefit of Christmas sales and xbox-MS interests. The result has been a gross mismanagement of a high profile entertainment product of which many PC gamer enthusiasts have cried foul.

 

It appears OE and LA are determined to remain obstinate in face of the consumers they very depend. PC gamers with their latest video cards, gig of ram, gighz processors are not going to continue in the slightest to accept xbox-console leftovers and take second to Christmas holiday console rushes.

 

Holiday season rushes, console ports, overbearing publishers, buggy games, unfinished games missing content and all needing patches is sickening. OE and LA represent the epitome of bureaucratic game development by committee.

 

The game Kotor II only purpose is to generate money and entertain second. That

[draakh_kimera]

@Hive:

 

OE didn't sell the game. LA did. They as the publisher are ultimately responsible for delivering a game that has been rushed. They were most probably well aware of what OE had to do to get the game out in the time given.

 

For all you people blaming OE for the bad game, tell me, what is the developers role apart from developing the game to the publishers wants and needs? I don't believe that the cutting of various parts was OE's fault. It was their decision to do so in order to save time, but it was to appease their publisher's demands, who wanted a Christmas release. Same thing for the bugs. OE wasn't given ample time to fix them because of said publisher's demands.

 

[sarcasm]

As for Urquhart's statement. Some people here want him to own up. Yeah, that's a really good idea, I'm sure LA wouldn't do anything about that. I'm sure it wouldn't break certain contract agreements, or cause a possible lawsuit. No, none of that would ever happen. In fact, it would be great for OE. Securing future publishers wouldn't be a problem at all, it'd probably make things easier for them if they bit the hand that feeds.

[/sarcasm]

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It should be quite clear that since the Xbox version was released eariler and this didnt happen. The entire focus of this comes from leaving files on the game disk.

That is what everyone is fixated on , and without that evidence this would have died shortly after release.

 

Dont do it again Feargus. Screw the modders et al. Think of the company first and clean up your future projects like you would a crime scene.

[Hive]

@Hive:

 

OE didn't sell the game.  LA did.  They as the publisher are ultimately responsible for delivering a game that has been rushed.  They were most probably well aware of what OE had to do to get the game out in the time given.

 

I know, and most of my anger goes towards LucasArts - trust me.

 

But Obsidian are the ones who will suffer from this, they are the ones who will be remembered for it. LucasArts can easily switch to someone else for KotOR III, and put the blame on Obsidian.

 

For all you people blaming OE for the bad game, tell me, what is the developers role apart from developing the game to the publishers wants and needs?  I don't believe that the cutting of various parts was OE's fault.  It was their decision to do so in order to save time, but it was to appease their publisher's demands, who wanted a Christmas release.  Same thing for the bugs.  OE wasn't given ample time to fix them because of said publisher's demands.

 

Yes, Obsidian have little blame in this. But what kind of comfort is that to the customers? You expect us to be all like "Oh well, we got robbed - but let's praise Obsidian for it, it's not their fault"?

 

[sarcasm]

As for Urquhart's statement.  Some people here want him to own up.  Yeah, that's a really good idea, I'm sure LA wouldn't do anything about that.  I'm sure it wouldn't break certain contract agreements, or cause a possible lawsuit.  No, none of that would ever happen.  In fact, it would be great for OE.  Securing future publishers wouldn't be a problem at all, it'd probably make things easier for them if they bit the hand that feeds.

[/sarcasm]

 

I think it's understandable why he doesn't admit that KotOR II was unfinished. But he doesn't have to present us with obvious BS instead.

 

At the end of the day, Obsidian and LucasArts are in this together. Why didn't Obsidian object to LucasArts rushing plans? Now you might say "well that's because they had signed a contract allowing LucasArts to do these things" - but who's responsibility is *that*, if not Obsidian's?

[Hive]

It should be quite clear that since the Xbox version was released eariler and this didnt happen. The entire focus of this comes from leaving files on the game disk.

That is what everyone is fixated on , and without that evidence this would have died shortly after release.

 

Dont do it again Feargus. Screw the modders et al. Think of the company first and clean up your future projects like you would a crime scene.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Leaving the droid factory and droid planet out of the game doesn't upset me. I think it's cool that the cut content is left in for modders to mess with, and I don't think it actually hurts the game much that it isn't in.

 

But even without cut content, anyone can see that Malachor is a mess with terrible plot-holes. So I can't see how removing the cut content completely would change much.

[phiont]

Despite what mummy says, you aren't the center of the universe, and people can't risk their livelihood just to make you happy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh really?? If the customer is not the center of their universe then who is?

 

Newsflash: If there was anything wrong with the money I paid then Lucas Arts would have every right to complain.

 

...clean up your future projects like you would a crime scene.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very well put!!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yes, Obsidian have little blame in this. But what kind of comfort is that to the customers? You expect us to be all like "Oh well, we got robbed - but let's praise Obsidian for it, it's not their fault"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's ridiculous. If you even remotely think that is true then you really havnt played enough games.

 

The end sequences takes all of 2 hours, if that. So no one is being robbed because the ending is about 10% of the game.

 

Halo II ? Finished in under 6 hours. Now that's MY idea of being robbed But that one I rented.

[draakh_kimera]

Yes, Obsidian have little blame in this. But what kind of comfort is that to the customers? You expect us to be all like "Oh well, we got robbed - but let's praise Obsidian for it, it's not their fault"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I'm not saying OE should be praised, I'd just like it if some people (not you) would take a look at the bigger picture.

 

At the end of the day, Obsidian and LucasArts are in this together. Why didn't Obsidian object to LucasArts rushing plans? Now you might say "well that's because they had signed a contract allowing LucasArts to do these things" - but who's responsibility is *that*, if not Obsidian's?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, since OE's a new developer I don't think their objections would carry much weight...

 

Now, I'm not sure about this, but didn't LA decide to move the deadline for the xbox to Christmas after the E3 show, instead of the intended one in February? I dunno, I guess OE wasn't expecting that, but yes, the whole contract thing is ultimately OE's responsiblity. I just blame LA for making what seems to have been an unreasonable contract.

[Hive]

That's ridiculous. If you even remotely think that is true then you really havnt played enough games.

 

Obsidian and LucasArts sold me an unfinished product. The fact that other companies might do the same is of no relevance to me.

 

But I will admit that I have little experience with RPGs. I have played Fallout 1 and 2, and KotOR I and II. That's it. So what?

 

The end sequences takes all of 2 hours, if that. So no one is being robbed because the ending is about 10% of the game.

 

Halo II ? Finished in under 6 hours. Now that's MY idea of being robbed  But that one I rented.

 

I'm not talking about the amount of hours the game takes to complete. Max payne and Call of Duty were both short games, but they were damn good regardles.

 

My problem with KotOR II is not short playing time, but the ENOURMOUS plot holes.

[Hive]

I just blame LA for making what seems to have been an unreasonable contract.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Don't get me wrong, I too see LucasArts as the big evil in this story. I'm merely pointing out that Obsidian does, after all, share some of the responsibility for the game.

[phiont]

The end sequences takes all of 2 hours, if that. So no one is being robbed because the ending is about 10% of the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When was the last time you heard a comedian leave out all the punchlines because, after all, they only constitute a small percentage of what he is saying?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

...clean up your future projects like you would a crime scene.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very well put!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I should put it in my sig :D

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

When was the last time you heard a comedian leave out all the punchlines because, after all, they only constitute a small percentage of what he is saying? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wouldnt use that anology myself. Rather I would see it as the comedian using fresh material for most of the night and then right at the end using a couple of old tired jokes which you already knew the punchline to.

 

That wouldnt ruin the evening because the other material was A+ stuff.

[Guest Dowie100]

sorry obsidian, but that statement is absolute and complete BS

 

Hmmm how much did Lucasarts Pay you to make that statement or did they threaton you?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Obsidian and LucasArts sold me an unfinished product. The fact that other companies might do the same is of no relevance to me.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No they didnt. They sold you a product that was simply not finished to your liking. World of diference there. Unfinished product would have been arriving on Telos and the computer screen going black because there was nothing else there. KOTOR II has an end.

 

The only part that really needed to come out that was left in was Mira/Hanhar , the rest is really easy.

[phiont]

Rather I would see it as the comedian using fresh material for most of the night and then right at the end using a couple of old tired jokes which you already knew the punchline to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...Or perhaps some jokes that a lot of people just don't get.

 

In any case, I think we can agree about where this is all headed. One way or another, the needs will be answered. It's just that I, personally, would much rather get the explanations to Obsidian's jokes from Obsidian than from the modding community.