What Gender?

[Aegis]

Does it matter? They have to pick something and what they picked is a pretty weak argument for which one is the "right" one.

[witchzenka]

But how many female generals have there been?  Boudicca is less a general than a rebellious queen.  She lost to the Roman governor of Britain and then committed suicide a la Cleopatra.  Now, if she had freed Britain and kept the Romans out by military might then you would have a case for women generals.

 

Also, I would like to point out that talking about 'Celts' isn't quite an easy task.  While Celtic is an ethnic group, it covered a wide range of land and several thousand years.  Treating 'Celt' as a monolithic whole doesn't work well. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't buy the whole "has to be an always winning general in order to count" argument. The fact that she existed and did what she did at all is significant, though the Celts were not as misogynist as many/most nations at the time, they were still male dominated. People ruled by might, and due to the weapons (hand to hand melee, mostly) men were more powerful. Added to that, the survival of any group depended on getting women pregnant and those women raising children, and lots of children due to the insane infant/child mortality rates.

Nowadays (and presumably in the SW galaxy) infant and child mortality is so low that we have serious problems with overpoplulation. Woman can conceive fewer children and much later in life. Our cultures do not demand women be tied to the homefront.

Men as a gender in power have throughout history been even violently opposed to sharing power. A woman who gains military power in a history like that is incredibly significant.

And you're right about the awkwardness of simply referring to Celts as such, but my point in doing so was that they were a powerful group of nations that existed for thousands of years - something that evilwhoever has no concept of.

[chibajoe]

If all you are interested in is the digital butt then you could always switch to another character like handmaiden or vissas.  I've always found it hard to roleplay a woman and think the lack of female gamers up until recently is because females have a hard time imagining themselves as males and what a male would say in a certain situation.

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I admit to having had problems playing a female PC; but then Fallout came along. That's the first RPG I can remember where there was a noticeble difference in the gameplay based on the PC gender, and in order to get the everything out of the game, you had to play through as both. As the genere has evolved, devolopers are providing multiple gaming experiences based on what type of character you choose, and you would be cheating yourself if you don't take advantage of what they offer. Incidently, this isn't restricted to gender; for example, try playing through Arcanum as a really low int. character, or Bloodlines as a Malkavian, or OddWorld as crippled fish (with a bad attitude) . Ultimately, it's all about roleplaying, and the more roles the developers let you play, the better (for us).

[chibajoe]

Yes, definitely, that was also a big reason why it failed to be as involving for me. You couldn't talk to, let alone have romances with, the people in your party. BG2 had romances which went really, really far (to having children) which I enjoyed :D

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Waitaminute! Since when could you have kids in BG?!?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yes, definitely, that was also a big reason why it failed to be as involving for me. You couldn't talk to, let alone have romances with, the people in your party. BG2 had romances which went really, really far (to having children) which I enjoyed :D

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Waitaminute! Since when could you have kids in BG?!?

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Aerie

[JediExile]

Actually Viconia was my favorite. For some reason none of the others apealed to me.

 

As far as cheating myself by not playing as a female you could look at it that way, but for me I just don't feel comfortable doing it. For instance I played KOTOR1 both lightside and darkside, but I didn't enjoy playing darkside at all. It may be just a game, but like reading a book I feel for the characters and don't feel right playing darkside. I don't plan to do so in KOTOR2.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Actually Viconia was my favorite.  For some reason none of the others apealed to me.

 

As far as cheating myself by not playing as a female you could look at it that way, but for me I just don't feel comfortable doing it.  For instance I played KOTOR1 both lightside and darkside, but I didn't enjoy playing darkside at all.  It may be just a game, but like reading a book I feel for the characters and don't feel right playing darkside.  I don't plan to do so in KOTOR2.

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Oh mine too, there was something special about the Paladin and the Drow getting it on....

 

Aerie is the only one you can have a child with though iirc.

[lothos]

He/him can be used as gender neutral terms when you're making general statements that could apply to either gender (or if the gender is unknown). Example: "If a customer were to visit a Baskin-Robbins store, he would probably be there to buy ice cream." This doesn't somehow mean that the customer is automatically a male, it just means that the person's gender is indeterminate and that "he" is being used as a gender neutral term because, after all, the customer could just as easily be a female. It would be incredibly awkward to have to constantly use "he or she" when you can stick to the nice, streamlined gender-neutral use of "he" in such cases.

 

In some manuals and strategy guides, I've seen the PC referred to as she/her despite the fact that you can choose to have a male PC. Does this mean that the PC is automatically a female just because "she" is referred to as one? Of course not! In such cases, I certainly don't go around acting like a j------ claiming that the PC is a female just because the writer of the manual/guide opted to use feminine pronouns instead of masculine ones (for once). I find the whole "Revan's a male because they used he and him, not she and her... so nyah!" argument to be ridiculous, immature and highly annoying.

 

I suspect that LA just used "he" for Revan because his/her gender is determined by the player who may be either male or female. Of course, if they've posted some specific image of Revan as a guy and specifically stated that that is what he looks like AND that it is official canon, I can live with it. However, as far as I know they haven't, but I guess it'd make avatar selection a lot easier if you only had one image to choose from and absolutely no choices about anything (hooray for fewer options)! <sarcasm> Everyone knows that the dialogue is just plain screwed up and flip-flops from one gender to the other because the devs messed it up. Trying to claim that the use of "he" is a sign that Revan is definitely a male is just plain silly! At any rate, Revan should be whomever you want her... or him to be, just don't try to force it down other people's throats.

[The Great Phantom]

Umm... HOLY COW! Last time I checked the post, 17 were Male-Male, 29 Female-Female...

 

Now it's 50+ for each, with M-M in the lead... Sorry for the off topic, just wanted to keep everybody posted. I'll delete if necessary...

 

I want Revan to be a guy, don't care bout the Exile, but would PREFER a male... I would like to see some unfair advantages for female PC's in the next game though... the Handmaiden thingy wasn't very fair... :ph34r:

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Looks like someones being doing a mailing job :D

 

I havnt voted yet.

[JediExile]

I was just thinking that the developers could have made this a easier on themselves if the male and female were actually two seperate characters. For isntance in resident evil you could play two differnt characters that follow similiar paths and meet up in the end of the game. The way it is now kind of leaves a ? in the store wars history.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

He/him can be used as gender neutral terms when you're making general statements that could apply to either gender (or if the gender is unknown). Example: "If a customer were to visit a Baskin-Robbins store, he would probably be there to buy ice cream." This doesn't somehow mean that the customer is automatically a male, it just means that the person's gender is indeterminate and that "he" is being used as a gender neutral term because, after all, the customer could just as easily be a female. It would be incredibly awkward to have to constantly use "he or she" when you can stick to the nice, streamlined gender-neutral use of "he" in such cases.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He or she is almost entirely used when refering to example characters so you dont have to keep writing s/he or she/he or he/she etc.

 

For example from the D&D rules.

 

"Slow Fall (Ex): At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm

[FortranDragon]

I don't buy the whole "has to be an always winning general in order to count" argument.  The fact that she existed and did what she did at all is significant, though the Celts were not as misogynist as many/most nations at the time, they were still male dominated.  People ruled by might, and due to the weapons (hand to hand melee, mostly) men were more powerful.  Added to that, the survival of any group depended on getting women pregnant and those women raising children, and lots of children due to the insane infant/child mortality rates.

Nowadays (and presumably in the SW galaxy) infant and child mortality is so low that we have serious problems with overpoplulation.  Woman can conceive fewer children and much later in life.  Our cultures do not demand women be tied to the homefront. 

Men as a gender in power have throughout history been even violently opposed to sharing power.  A woman who gains military power in a history like that is incredibly significant.

And you're right about the awkwardness of simply referring to Celts as such, but my point in doing so was that they were a powerful group of nations that existed for thousands of years - something that evilwhoever has no concept of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It matters because Boudicca didn't show she was a general. Used popular unrest to her own ends, yes, but a general, no.

 

But, for the sake of argument, let's say she was a general. You have her and Joan of Arc. How many more women throughout history can you name? Count them and then count all the men. If you compare the two then you'll most likely have a statistically insignificant number. Thus, it would require a female Revan to have an extraordinary background to have become a general. [side note: Since PCs are supposed to be extraordinary, building that type of background for female Revans would be a huge bonus. It would make a female Revan that much more potent than a male Revan. ]

 

To wind back around to my initial point, when people tend to view Revan as a man by default or even canonically a man, then they are doing it quite rationally given what humanity actually does in these situations. Bioware did the female Revan a disservice by emphasizing just how much more incredible she would be over a male Revan. (It would also have been fun to see that fact stick in the Mandolorian's craw. ;-) Their arrogance would have gotten an even bigger shock I bet.)

 

As far as overpopulation goes, you have to be kidding me. Hyperdrive makes overpopulation effectively a non-issue. While a planet might be a 'big-city planet' a la Asimov's Trantor, it wouldn't be a common thing. It is just too easy to get up and live somewhere else.

 

I'd also point out that the Celts were groups of tribes, not nations. Vercingtorix (sp) was the first to really try to wield some Celtic tribes into a nation. Unfortunately he had to deal with Caesar...

[Aegis]

Yeah, like I said, I'm not sure if the gender neutral interpretation applies when you're as specific as the chronicles. "Revan did this and that, then he did something else". That being said, I'm not sure, and I can't think of another way to write it.

[NeoHunter]

I chose Revan to be a male character because the name "Revan" just has this "male sound" to it. It wouldn't suit a female.

 

As for the Exile, I chose female because the name Exile is more of a place holder that a name, so we can make the Exile be any gender we like. I personally like the Exile to be female. What better than to have a female Jedi running into battle on Malachor V with a lightsaber?

[Odinson]

Never thought I gain gender wisdom from a video game message board.

[stop_him]

All these "women make crap generals" arguments give more credence to the fact that a female Revan would have more reason to wear a mask than a male Revan would.

 

Even before her "Fall," Revan wore a mask. Why? Could it be due to the fact that she indeed knew an army of men would have had a problem following a woman into battle, but NOT someone whom because of a mask, other men would simply presume was just another man? I'm not the most Star Wars savvy person here, but I don't know many Jedi who go around wearing masks just for the hell of it or because it looks cool.

 

However, a woman who had to pretend to be a man in order to gain the respect of an army, which could never conceive of a strong female leader, would. Many women in the Civil War dressed up like men in order to fight. A female Jedi would probably do the same.

 

However, I'd also like to point out that this all takes place in a galaxy far, far away. It is not our world, but at the same time it is, which causes quite a few problems.

 

The other argument that Revan had to be a man simply because all the strongest Jedi are men is a fallacy. Those who write the Star Wars universe are primarily men, who write for an audience, which again is composed of primarily men.

The number of women who play games and gain an interest in Science fiction (and by extent Star Wars) is steadily increasing. Once the number of female writers and female audience increases, the more strong female Jedi we'll find.

 

And yet, I'm sure people will still find many ways in which to impede their already limited imaginations with their "traditional values."

 

But I'd still like to point out the fact that it's up to each and every player to decide Revan's sex. Therefore, all these posts about Revan had to be male/female due to this or that reason (including mine) are pointess.

[The Great Phantom]

Ummm... Where does Revan wear a mask before his fall? He wears it in the Ruins on Dantooine, but he had already begun his decent into darkness.

 

I don't think Revan is a guy because of the General thing. A Jedi is a Jedi. I think Revan is a guy because of the Bastila thing, and puts a whole spin on the Redemption thing. I know many girls will say they'd do the same for good girlfriends, but with a guy it shows that Love can Save as often as Destroy. It fits more into Kreia's ORIGINAL plan, that way... Besides, they're stronger when around eachother, which is a huge key for a successful relationship.

 

Exile also makes sense as a guy, because of the unfortunate Handmaiden incident. This seems much more Classic, imho. I strongly believe that the choice should remain.

 

The reason why it creates a bubble in SW history is because nobody ever hears of Darth Revan or Darth Exile (or Mistress Revan/Exile) and all their various exploits... So, anything can and should be open. It's not that hard to change a cameo here, or a pronoun there. I should know. :ph34r:

[The Great Phantom]

Oh, and I wish they'd put in an advantage for female PC's in Kotor III, so that we can get an actual canonical female... I recently read something somebody asked LA, and Revan/Exile LS Male is the OFFICIAL thing, but who cares? Once again, nobody EVER hears of them, so anything goes. I say we move on with our lives, and trust in the Devs, and boycott LA until they give us a COMPLETE Kotor III!

[stop_him]

I don't think Revan is a guy because of the General thing. A Jedi is a Jedi. I think Revan is a guy because of the Bastila thing, and puts a whole spin on the Redemption thing. I know many girls will say they'd do the same for good girlfriends, but with a guy it shows that Love can Save as often as Destroy. It fits more into Kreia's ORIGINAL plan, that way... Besides, they're stronger when around eachother, which is a huge key for a successful relationship.

 

Exile also makes sense as a guy, because of the unfortunate Handmaiden incident. This seems much more Classic, imho. I strongly believe that the choice should remain.

Many guys make the claim that a male Revan makes more sense because of his relationship with Bastila, but I would beg to differ.

 

My playthrough as a male Revan seemed cliche. It was just so ho-hum. "But Bastila, you can't fall to the Darkside; LOVE conquers all, baby!" Blah. Been there. Done that. Let's try something new.

 

Bastila's redemption is much more meaningful with a female Revan, because the story doesn't have to fall back on a cheap romance plot. Her redemption is self-realized and therefore EARNED.

 

Ummm... Where does Revan wear a mask before his fall? He wears it in the Ruins on Dantooine, but he had already begun his decent into darkness.

Revan is the Jedi that Juhani worshiped so much back in her childhood days on Taris. She doesn't recognize the PC because Revan was wearing that mask. That's the only explanation available.

 

recently read something somebody asked LA, and Revan/Exile LS Male is the OFFICIAL thing

Of couse. But that's incredibly BORING don't you think?

 

We all know that if forced to choose a sex, L.A. would designate both Revan and the Exile as "White, Anglo-Saxon heterosexual male" just like (for the most part) every single other Star Wars hero. Even a canon *gasp* black, Asian, etc. Revan would be too much. ...Much less female Revan! *GASP!* Unacceptable.

[The Great Phantom]

You strike a good point. And I am much more of a romantic, and NEVER thought of the Bastila Romance as so BLAH... I found it kinda cool, but not in a sexual way. I found it to fit into the apparent theme of Kotor: Sometimes you gotta break a few rules to do what's right...

[phiont]

...

 

But, for the sake of argument, let's say she was a general.  You have her and Joan of Arc.  How many more women throughout history can you name?  Count them and then count all the men.  If you compare the two then you'll most likely have a statistically insignificant number.  Thus, it would require a female Revan to have an extraordinary background to have become a general.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let's not forget that you are comparing a fictional setting where people have been zipping around their galaxy at faster-than-light speed for 21,000 years to our relatively primitive real world where we only actually started using soap in the last century. The story's portrayal of gender roles certainly doesn't come close to the top of my list of ways in which the Star Wars universe is unrealistically different from our own.

[Laozi]

i love the bladerunner avatar

[phiont]

i love the bladerunner avatar

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Heh thanks.

 

I was looking for something a bit linked to my nickname and stumbled upon the pic of Sean Young; at least a homonym of Shan.

[Nitron]

Yes, definitely, that was also a big reason why it failed to be as involving for me. You couldn't talk to, let alone have romances with, the people in your party. BG2 had romances which went really, really far (to having children) which I enjoyed :D

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Waitaminute! Since when could you have kids in BG?!?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Aerie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

A. K. A. It, Triangle Face, Whiny Bitch, etc.