Ravager = Star Destroyer?

[Zilod]

The Star Forge must've had some limitation. If it didn't, Revan would've had it produce a fleet big enough to crush the republic, end of story.

is exactly what is happening, regardless of all the efforts and resources the republic is putting in they are not able to stop that fleet

 

in the game there are some points that makes it quite clear, that regardless of the loses the Sith fleet continue to grow.

 

 

Not beyond a certain point. You develop weapons to counter an opponents developments. If your technology is the best, you don't need more unless there are other niches you may want to fill (and making better ships that fill the same function as a previous one is not an example of that). Basically, all you'll end up with if you do that is weapons that drains more resources for the same job. To use the shotgun and fly analogy from before; what is the most efficient thing to do if you want to kill flies? Roll up a million newspapers or make one shotgun? Anything beyond a rolled up newspaper is just overkill and a waste of resources and efficiency.

I agree with that but you say yourself that your technology have to be the best, even in the military field for what we know Rakatan technology at the apex of their empire where far superior to republic one in many fields.

It will seem quite strange to me that a race of fighters will not develop weapons that take advantage of the best scientific knowledge of the race.

 

just for example, it seem that Rakatan where able to use the force as a form of energy, it makes sense to me that it powered also their weapons.

 

for the sith ship design seem very reasonable to me that, as said by tu2thepoo, the project cold be a mix of republic and rakatan design/technology, but still it doesn't make it a republic ship

[Aegis]

The star forge drew its raw material from the Rakatan sun...

 

Yes, I know. However, it's more likely a matter of energy (haha, get it? Matter - energy. Oh forget it). A sun is basically made up of hydrogen and helium. Using a sun to produce material is not very efficient. You could however drop in iron, titanium etc. at the top and watch as a ship falls out the bottom, as the Star Forge use the energy from the sun to construct the ship. Transporting material and actually producing the ships will take time and resources (or at least *something* did as Revan didn't have an unlimited armada of ships).

 

(I'm not even going to try and figure out the alchemy involved).

 

Not that complicated, really. No more so than anything else in Star Wars at least. If it's just energy, the fusion in the sun result it heat and radiation which you can absorb, convert to kinetic energy which you then convert to electricity. Same principle as a nuclear reactor, really. As for matieral, it's a bit more complicated, but that's basically what fusion does. You take two light atoms, fuse them into one that is heavier (such as 2 hydrogen atoms in the sun going through fusion to become one helium atom). Theoretically, you can use fusion to create anything out of anything, it'll just might require a lot of energy to do it (I believe iron is the critical point where you'll need to add extra energy into the system. You'll need to at previous stages as well, though, unless you can recycle 100% of the energy and if you ignore the initial energy boost you need to initiate the reaction) and you'll need some way to contain the massive amount of heat that the fusion reaction will create.

Come to think of it, it is rather complicated.

 

Anyway, since I read through the game's official site again (thanks Drakron), I don't know what to make of the whole Ravager/Leviathan similarity. If the Leviathan was a unique/new Republic interdictor design... I dunno, maybe the Ravager was a precursor (and that's why it doesn't look so streamlined).

 

Well, regardless of what the Leviathan is, the Ravager can't be anything but a Republic ship. It pre-dates the Star Forge, so it's not from there. It participated in the battle at Malachor, so it's either a Republic ship or a Mandalorian ship. KotOR2 rather clearly implies that it's *not* a Mandalorian ship, so that doesn't leave a whole lot of options.

[Aegis]

is exactly what is happening, regardless of all the efforts and resources the republic is putting in they are not able to stop that fleet

 

That's utterly false. The fact that the Republic was alive and well long enough for Revan to be captured rather clearly implies that the Star Forge had some limitation. If if it didn't, the Republic would not have been intact long enough to capture Revan, and Revan certainly wouldn't have had time to destroy it before Malak had produced enough ships to finish the job.

 

It will seem quite strange to me that a race of fighters will not develop weapons that take advantage of the best scientific knowledge of the race.

 

Because they don't need to. That's why you don't use a shotgun to kill a fly, despite the fact that shotguns are far more advanced than a rolled up paper. And just because your civilization is advanced, it doesn't mean you will have or use advanced weapon technology. The might've been warriors, but even warriors wouldn't use shotguns against a flies. If there are two ways to solve a problem and one is considerably more simple than the other, why should you ever pick the harder one?

 

just for example, it seem that Rakatan where able to use the force as a form of energy, it makes sense to me that it powered also their weapons.

 

I can't recall anything like that, and I'm usually quite attentive to such things. Regardless, unless my impression of the force is all wrong, any such technology would depend on the user being able to use the force, which in turn would severely limit the use of such ships in the Jedi Civil War as a fairly small portion of those who participated were jedi.

[Zilod]

is exactly what is happening, regardless of all the efforts and resources the republic is putting in they are not able to stop that fleet

 

That's utterly false. The fact that the Republic was alive and well long enough for Revan to be captured rather clearly implies that the Star Forge had some limitation. If if it didn't, the Republic would not have been intact long enough to capture Revan, and Revan certainly wouldn't have had time to destroy it before Malak had produced enough ships to finish the job.

we have 2 games that say that, even when the Exile talks to Kreia it say something like that Revan had endless resources.

Not to say that even in KOTOR1 is stated more than once.

 

Even the fact that Revan is used by the jedi to find the starforge imply that they know that they can't win the war if they will not destroy that factory.

 

the Revan capture was not a technology fault, just a good strategy for the republic that prepared a trap and used also Bastila's battle meditation.

 

In the game is also stated that if Revan will still be the leader the sith had won at that time and even now, with just Malak, the republic is "alive" mostly due to the battle meditation skill.

 

Consider also that Revan suffered many casualities during the mandalorian wars, after he won the war he haven't attacked the republic and i think this imply that he had not such strong forces, both of mens and ships.

 

He moved war to the republic after he discovered the starforg and built a powerfull fleet.

 

for the fly example i don't think is so pertinent, is obious that i will not use a shotgun for a fly but just because the technologies that the shotgun is based on is not appropriate for that purpose.

Is not that the shotgun is an "advanced" version of the paper to crush the fly, they are very different things.

 

 

just for example, it seem that Rakatan where able to use the force as a form of energy, it makes sense to me that it powered also their weapons.

 

I can't recall anything like that, and I'm usually quite attentive to such things. Regardless, unless my impression of the force is all wrong, any such technology would depend on the user being able to use the force, which in turn would severely limit the use of such ships in the Jedi Civil War as a fairly small portion of those who participated were jedi.

This is mostly my supposition and probably "it seem to me" was more appropriate, i think about that because Rakatans says that their techonlogy used the force and that their ship where very fast, after they lose the force they where forced to build ships with different technology and they where no more able to travel as fast as before.

 

This makes me think that the force played an active role for their propulsion system so more likelly and energy itself or a power to handle some unknow energy.

 

In both case is probable that a technology like that, that handle a very powerfull energy, can be used even for weapos and not just for "engines".

 

also if i'm not wrong in EU there are some example of weapons powered by the force but i have not a direct knowledge of it so i leave this for EU experts

[Topaz Quasar]

One thing's for sure: The Ravager & Leviathan are not the same design. The Leviathan has a rounded shape near the front, and a defined gap. The Ravager was more wedge shaped and streamlined (probably not as big either). They aren't exactly the same as ISD's, which have a more defined bridge tower.

 

I believe they were both Republic ships, designed with a similar architecture model (which was used even during the Clone Wars 4000 years later). It was suggested the Star Forge could replicate models, thus the Leviathan design could've been used as a template by Revan & Malak. They never explicitly said the Leviathan were alien design either.

 

The Endar spire & Harbinger style ships were much different, probably older, type of warship. Most of the Leviathan/Ravager ships, if not taken by Revan, were destroyed in the Mandalorian Wars, leaving little to the Republic fleet.

[tu2thepoo]

Not that complicated, really. No more so than anything else in Star Wars at least. If it's just energy, the fusion in the sun result it heat and radiation which you can absorb, convert to kinetic energy which you then convert to electricity. Same principle as a nuclear reactor, really. As for matieral, it's a bit more complicated, but that's basically what fusion does. You take two light atoms, fuse them into one that is heavier (such as 2 hydrogen atoms in the sun going through fusion to become one helium atom). Theoretically, you can use fusion to create anything out of anything, it'll just might require a lot of energy to do it (I believe iron is the critical point where you'll need to add extra energy into the system. You'll need to at previous stages as well, though, unless you can recycle 100% of the energy and if you ignore the initial energy boost you need to initiate the reaction) and you'll need some way to contain the massive amount of heat that the fusion reaction will create.

Come to think of it, it is rather complicated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I know how fusion works. I just didn't remember seeing any transport ships at the end of KOTOR1 and figured the Star Forge must've been set up to be autonomous, which would imply that it could only work from what materials it could leech from the sun.

 

Well, regardless of what the Leviathan is, the Ravager can't be anything but a Republic ship. It pre-dates the Star Forge, so it's not from there. It participated in the battle at Malachor, so it's either a Republic ship or a Mandalorian ship. KotOR2 rather clearly implies that it's *not* a Mandalorian ship, so that doesn't leave a whole lot of options.

again, I'm aware of that. My point of confusion was that they kept calling it a Sith ship, and since it looked so much like the Leviathan (and the Star Forge ships by association), I thought maybe they were implying that the Ravager was also a Star Forge ship.

[Aegis]

we have 2 games that say that, even when the Exile talks to Kreia it say something like that Revan had endless resources.

Not to say that even in KOTOR1 is stated more than once.

 

Endless? That's not entierly true, first of all. Stars will burn out eventually, even more so if you steal matter from it to build ships. If you don't steal matter, your limit is the raw material you can find. Either way, the source is limited.

Second, it's irrelevant how long the Star Forge can remain operational. What is releveant is how fast it operates. You're claiming that all ships of any other design would be replaced by Star Forge ships because they are better. Whether this is true or not, which you're yet to prove, that would still mean the Star Forge would have to produce enough ships to make the limiting factor people to crew them (unlikely). Anything else would mean that the old ships would still be used, as one strong and one weak ship is always better than one strong.

 

If this is true, then the Republic would've fallen within months, battle meditation or not. As it is, it'll fall *eventually*. That's a given, assuming the Star Forge can remain operation for as long as it's needed and produce ships fast enough to keep the Republic at bay (which wouldn't actually require it to be that efficient). The Sith would win by attrition even if they couldn't gather a fleet strong enough to defeat the Republic in battle. It's a very common military strategy, actually.

 

the Revan capture was not a technology fault, just a good strategy for the republic that prepared a trap and used also Bastila's battle meditation.

 

Not the fault of it, no, but technology could've prevented it. They never would've been able to board Revan's ship if it had been in the middle of a fleet of other ships. Had Revan had an endless supply of ships, there would be no reason for him/her to expose him-/herself like that.

 

for the fly example i don't think is so pertinent, is obious that i will not use a shotgun for a fly but just because the technologies that the shotgun is based on is not appropriate for that purpose.

Is not that the shotgun is an "advanced" version of the paper to crush the fly, they are very different things.

 

Fine, if you want to kill an unarmoured man, do you use an assault rifle or a pistol (Keep in mind that you'd have to go through the process of researching, building and financing the assault rifle)? That said, yes, it is the same thing if used it in this simplified scenario, as we assume that both the rolled up paper and the shotgun was developed specifically to kill flies. That's more or less the scenario that the builders of the Star Forge would've had, except on a much bigger scale. You have weapons that kill things and weapons that kill things more efficiently. How they do it is irrelevant.

[The Great Phantom]

maybe Carth was on Leviathan when Telos was destroyed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And Saul was kind enough to supply him with means of transportation of the ship after he was done with his homeworld.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He could have used an escape pod.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He says that he was away, probably dealing with the after affects of the Mandalorian Wars, or trying to head off some Sith diversion elsewhere...

[AngryTarsier]

nope, he was on telos, how else could he hold his dying wife...

 

I think we get an idea from pearl harbor, big ships approach, they assume they're with the good guys, sith launch the fighters and all hell breaks lose.. carth being a pilot tries to fight back, failing that tries to rescue his family, finds his wife dead x_x

 

is it just me.. or does the ravager looks bigger than the leviathan??

I'm more inclined to think the ravager was a carrier ship and the leviathan a cruiser type vessel, interdictors like the leviathan are good for blockades

[jedipodo]

In my opinion the story of Kotor1 isn't flawed in the point that the Leviathan has been a Republic ship.

 

The story of Kotor1 had been written down before they finished the animation of the battles.

 

Bioware gave the Republic only small weak looking vessels and Malak the big boss capital ship, because of a much more simple identification who are the good guys and who are the bad.

 

 

Someone argued that the Leviathan is an alien design. But what is the exact definition of "alien" in a galaxy in which an uncountable number of species are living?

[213374U]

Endless? That's not entierly true, first of all. Stars will burn out eventually, even more so if you steal matter from it to build ships. If you don't steal matter, your limit is the raw material you can find. Either way, the source is limited.

Yes, limited, as in not mathematically infinite. However, the amount of matter you can draw from a sun to put together little ships (in comparison to the sun itself) is... nearly unlimited. There are instances of stars that are so close to black holes that the black hole leeches gas from it... much faster than the SF could. And the fact that we have been able to see it is a testament to how long can a star last while an external source draws from it. So, yeah, for practical purposes those were unlimited resources.

 

 

If this is true, then the Republic would've fallen within months, battle meditation or not. As it is, it'll fall *eventually*. That's a given, assuming the Star Forge can remain operation for as long as it's needed and produce ships fast enough to keep the Republic at bay (which wouldn't actually require it to be that efficient). The Sith would win by attrition even if they couldn't gather a fleet strong enough to defeat the Republic in battle. It's a very common military strategy, actually.

You have not been paying attention to K2 it seems. Revan wasn't trying to crush the Republic, at all. And only a few months passed between Revan being abducted and Malak's demise. While Malak's fleet was probably overrunning the Republic, he still had the Battle Meditation to deal with, and more importantly, his utter lack of competence as a military commander. That last factor alone has turned the tide on more battles than any advancement in weapons technology, ever.

 

If sheer power could have been enough to win the war, Malak wouldn't have been wasting time searching for Bastila like that. And no matter what you may infer, his resources were unlimited. SW is not a science, and the narrator's word is law. This discussion is an example of what happens when that narrator messes up.

 

 

Not the fault of it, no, but technology could've prevented it. They never would've been able to board Revan's ship if it had been in the middle of a fleet of other ships. Had Revan had an endless supply of ships, there would be no reason for him/her to expose him-/herself like that.

We have no details about how Revan's capture really happened. It could have been that in the middle of a battle, the Jedi had used a captured Sith vessel to sneak aboard Revan's ship. All of that is pure speculation and it's weight as an argument is next to zero.

 

 

That's more or less the scenario that the builders of the Star Forge would've had, except on a much bigger scale. You have weapons that kill things and weapons that kill things more efficiently. How they do it is irrelevant.

Again, that's speculation. We don't know if the rakata were the only ones with advanced technology. They may have had to wage war against other technologically advanced races. All we know is that at the apex of their civilization, they controlled a vast empire. For all we know, all that gave them the edge over their enemies was their mastery of the Force. Let's stick to what we do know, people.

[BattleCookiee]

1) The Leviathan is Republic:

 

2) SF's energie. The Star Forge drawed it's energy from the Force, corrupting it to the DS. Few could keep the SF in control as it would kill them drawing the Force out of them. Only Revan and Malak could.

The SF was the Main Reason for the Rakatans loss of the Force, as it was the SF that corrupted them, started them to fight eachother and other people and in the end consumed them...

Meaning SF's engersies were unlimited, as the Force is in all things.

 

3) Carth tried to get to Telos to save the planet, but when he arrived with a Republic fleet he was too late, and Saul bombed it into oblivion. In KOTOR2 he is on time and also says: "I don't want to be to late to save my homeworld the second time"

 

4) Revan WAS captured in the middle of the fleet, because Malak ordered all his ships to fire on Revan's vessel, trying to kill the Jedi and Revan in one blow. It failed.

 

5) Revan HAD a large fleet large enough to crush the Republic. Everybody finds it weird (in KOTOR2) that he/she didn't used it to crush the Republic (as easily could), and that he/she stopped producing ships after a small time.

[dufflover]

Leviathan: Star Forge (ie. not Republic) ship

Ravager: Republic ship falling to pieces

 

From Game Design point of view, BioWare designed the Sith to resemble the "Imperials" (ironically, the Republic), hence the identical shiny plastoid armour, arming them with blaster rifles, some of them providing comic relief by being stupid, commanded by Dark Jedi, and to keep the theme, the ships were designed with the Imperial resemblence.

 

I'm guessing Ravager, being a bad guy ship now, was also designed to follow the Imperial theme; however I think this was a bad call by Obsidian, although I suppose it doesn't change much.

 

btw, you hardly see a boss travelling on the worst ship in their fleet - it's usually the best right......

[BattleCookiee]

I don't have the game installed right now, but the scenes of the final battle are quite detailed. Perhaps somebody can post some pics of that.

 

Here, the things the SF produce are clearly Leviathan clones.

[AngryTarsier]

still.. the leviathan could start off as the first of its kind, built by the republic, stolen by its commander Saul Karath and then copied and produced en masse by the star forge, why else would the "database" mention it as a republic cruise

 

btw, I have no idea where they get the design of the ravager... maybe that's how leviathan would look like if it were stripped..

[BattleCookiee]

still.. the leviathan could start off as the first of its kind, built by the republic, stolen by its commander Saul Karath and then copied and produced en masse by the star forge, why else would the "database" mention it as a republic cruise

 

That is how it happened.

And some more comparision pictures of Leviathan and Ravanger.

Now it's easy to see they are different.

And the design of the Ravanger looks like a Super Star Destroyer, even the Deck looks exactly the same.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I was just watching a SW clip show and it dosnt look anything like a Super Star Destroyer, not from that angle at least.

[Zilod]

1) The Leviathan is Republic:

 

again if that model is a republic ship why during the game is said they are of alien design?

 

why we see only siths use this kind of ships?

 

 

 

 

 

for the Ravager... it doesn't like a SSD, the SSD is quite flat and very long, the Ravager is compact and "muscular" more like a "standard" SD, even if the deck is very symilar to the SSD one

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Just to make sure I have the right ship. The SSD is the one that crashes into the deathstar in ROJ isnt it?

[Zilod]

Just to make sure I have the right ship. The SSD is the one that crashes into the deathstar in ROJ isnt it?

yup

 

SSD

 

 

ISD

[BattleCookiee]

again if that model is a republic ship why during the game is said they are of alien design?

 

why we see only siths use this kind of ships?

 

Saul (a Republic warhero) had this ship (one of his kind) in command when defected. It was the first the Republic produced.

Then he took it too the copy machine (SF, see end movie or screenshot a few posts before)

 

They were of Alien design because the SF made them, and it was unknown how a copy could or would be made (nobody knows of the SF, even in KOTOR2).

[Zilod]

They were of Alien design because the SF made them, and it was unknown how a copy could or would be made (nobody knows of the SF, even in KOTOR2).

mmmmmm

 

but that makes not an alien design just a copy of a republic ship

alien or unknown design seem to point more to the shape or the class of the ship not where it was made.

[Hammer]

Just to make sure I have the right ship. The SSD is the one that crashes into the deathstar in ROJ isnt it?

yup

 

SSD

 

 

ISD

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

This is correct. The SSD was the most powerful capital ship the Empire ever produced, second only to the Death Star, which was an orbital battle station/planetoid constuct. The SSD had about 500 Turblolasers, etc. The ISD came in several flavors: ISD 1 and ISD 2. ISD 1 was much much weaker, about half as powerful as the ISD 2. It carried about 100 turbolasers and 60 Ion cannons. The SSD was considered 5 times more powerful than an ISD and about twice as powerful as an ISD 2 all things being equal. What made the ISD 2 so much more powerful than the ISD 1 besides extra firepower, was its shield system....although all the ISDs had the shield generator weakness issue....(IE: the shield generators we exposed on the top of the bridge at the edge of the shield system), the ISD 2 also had a *much* stronger hull as well. The SSD was about 7 kilometers long while the ISD's were 1-2 kilometers long. The Death Star was 120 Kilometers at its equator and had over 1000 Turbolasers, 1 Million troops, hundreds of starfighters and of course, the dreaded Superlaser. The 2nd Death Star was slightly larger than the first one, had an even more powerful Superlaser (due to the extra focusing lenses) and carried even more troops. The Death Star was clearly a strategic weapon more than a tactical weapon, although it could serve both functions if neccesary, The Darksaber was essentially an extremely scaled down death star built around the Superlaser, which was probably THE most powerful laser ever developed by the Empire. More on the lines of a scabbard built to house a sword, if you will. What is most often missed in the discussions of these weapons is the tremendous amount of resources required to build them. A Victory Star Destoyer, which is about half as powerful as an ISD, required a year's worth of resources from a single planet to build, while Death Stars would require resources from several SECTORs! That's why they took so long to build and there were so few of them. We aren't even getting into maintenance yet, either, which was another headache. You may recall in ROJ, Darth Vader visiting the Second Death Star ostensibly to ahmm "motivate" the workforce to get "back on schedule?" Production was a big problem in the Empire.

[BattleCookiee]

mmmmmm

 

but that makes not an alien design just a copy of a republic ship

alien or unknown design seem to point more to the shape or the class of the ship not where it was made.

 

I've reloaded some old KOTOR1 saves and the only thing they talk about alien (alien technology) they mean the Star Forge.

 

Where exactly in the game did you hear them call the Leviathan copies of alien design?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

This is correct.  The SSD was the most powerful capital ship the Empire ever produced, second only to the Death Star, which was an orbital battle station/planetoid constuct.  The SSD had about 500 Turblolasers, etc.  The ISD came in several flavors: ISD 1 and ISD 2.  ISD 1 was much much weaker, about half as powerful as the ISD 2.  It carried about 100 turbolasers and 60 Ion cannons.  The SSD was considered 5 times more powerful than an ISD and about twice as powerful as an ISD 2 all things being equal.  What made the ISD 2 so much more powerful than the ISD 1 besides extra firepower, was its shield system....although all the ISDs had the shield generator weakness issue....(IE: the shield generators we exposed on the top of the bridge at the edge of the shield system), the ISD 2 also had a *much* stronger hull as well.  The SSD was about 7 kilometers long while the ISD's were 1-2 kilometers long.  The Death Star was 120 Kilometers at its equator and had over 1000 Turbolasers, 1 Million troops, hundreds of starfighters and of course, the dreaded Superlaser.  The 2nd Death Star was slightly larger than the first one, had an even more powerful Superlaser (due to the extra focusing lenses) and carried even more troops.  The Death Star was clearly a strategic weapon more than a tactical weapon, although it could serve both functions if neccesary,  The Darksaber was essentially an extremely scaled down death star built around the Superlaser, which was probably THE most powerful laser ever developed by the Empire.  More on the lines of a scabbard built to house a sword, if you will.  What is most often missed in the discussions of these weapons is the tremendous amount of resources required to build them.  A Victory Star Destoyer, which is about half as powerful as an ISD, required a year's worth of resources from a single planet to build, while Death Stars would require resources from several SECTORs!  That's why they took so long to build and there were so few of them.  We aren't even getting into maintenance yet, either, which was another headache.  You may recall in ROJ, Darth Vader visiting the Second Death Star ostensibly to ahmm  "motivate" the workforce to get "back on schedule?"    Production was a big problem in the Empire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thought so, the Ravager dosnt look anythingl like an SSD. It does resemble an ISD but in no way is it a copy.

 

The Other ship (leviathon) looks more like a calamari cruiser than anything else to me. Although the back end is different (like bolting two ship designs together).