sith lord vrook??? "spoiler"

[master skidder]

just a question you all. why do most of you say that vrook is a sith lord, he is a jedi master. he may have a narrow view of the jedi. just a question on this topic

[steelfiredragon]

from what i hear is that he attacks you becuase your a wound in the force, and fears you becuase of it.

fear leads to the dark side.

[Kalfear]

Reason I refer to him as a Sith Lord is he is a prime example of everything a Jedi shouldnt be!

 

While im not a stickler for the Star Wars lore like some readers here, could care less about the EU (novels and other articles) and really coud care less about the continuity of the Star Wars lore as longs as what im playing is fun, there is certain things even I expect and demand stay consitant.

 

One of those things is the True and real Jedi are shining examples of GOOD. They are the examples of people that have forsaken relationships (in theory), material gains, ego driven goals, and above all else...intellegent and wise, for the sake of bettering those around them and sticking up for the little guy. Master Vrook is none of those things.

 

In the game (when you repair the droid at the Dantoine Landing Pad) you learn that Vrook has carried a grudge since your early days as a padawen in the jedi academy. Even back then his arguement regarding you was based on insults and suspicions rather then hard facts and knowledge. Then in the holocron about you being exiled you get the impression once again hes motives are anything but pure and is one of the driving forces in having the council lie to you (Jedi are not suppose to lie).

 

When you save him from the Mercs he is trapped in a cage and you have learned that the mercs are going to attack the settlers REGARDLESS of him being held prisoner (his bounty and the attack planned on the settlers do NOT effect the other). Yet rather then be thank ful and concerned about the settlers he is arrogent and concieted to a fault believing that as long as he is a captive that will satify the mercs (it wont and doesnt). This incident is NOT intellegent, its NOT wise, it is based soly on ones over inflated ego of themselves and would have ultimately done great harm to the settlers if you had not interveined. Yet in his arrogent driven conceit he is unable to see this or just refuses to acknowledge this (again, this is dark side, not light side traits).

*addition*: If you play Dark Side, Vrook doesnt even warn the settlers you have fallen to the darkside and allows them to put their hope and faith in YOU rather then show himself and safe them. He potentially sacrafises them to save himself once again.

 

The REALLY REALLY telling tale for me tho is when they they try to strip your power. While I think all 3 jedi are out of place in the meeting, Vrook again comes of as having personal and ego driven reasons for the act. The fact of the matter is by this time you are the ONLY jedi in existance to not only meet the new sith threat but survive it on two occations now. You have saved the Dant settlers (if playing lightside of course), Saved the Onderon Queen and stabilized their political climate (when the master Jedi there decided to do things behind the sceens to achieve his own agenda at the very posible cost of the queens rule and life), eliminated the exchange from Nar Shadaar and helped countless refugees towards makeing a better life for themselves (when the master jedi there only hid and did nothing for those that could not defend themselves and were being exploited).

 

You have set in place the foundation for the Onderon people to form a uneasy but potentially great self benefiting alliance with the Mandalorians on Dunx and the Onderon people.

 

So after all this, Vrooks choice is a hastily agreement giving no thought or care to the costs of innocent lives and only the current power he currently holds (he says they see the deatyh of the force, but since there is only 4 known jedi left (not counting yourself), he votes to strip you of the force so himself and 3 others maintain connection to the force rather then him losing his own force powers and defeating the current enemy laying waste to the known republic planets.

 

In other words, he chooses 4 people over millions all for greedy and self absorbed reasons.

 

I dont call the other two (Kavar and whats his name on Nar Shadaar) sith because at least prior to the very poorly layed out encounter where they try to strip you of your powers they at least act (or comacross) as jedi. Cowerds yes but still Jedi. Vrook NEVER in the entire game (or really game 1 either if you think back) comes across as jedi'ish. He is driven by hiw own quest for personal power. He is arrogent, acts on his emotions rather then the facts, self obsorbed, and just not very smart or wise. Those traits make for a Sith, not a Jedi, not a padawen, and definately not a member of the Jedi Council. His lust for power is greater then some of the supposive villians you face, but its more dangerous because he hids it behind the false image of the Jedi.

 

As I said at the start, Im not big on the whole EU and all that, I have NEVER even read a Star Wars novel (I prefer fantasy and fiction (The God Father, Oliver Twist, War and Peace, ect) over sci fi) but even I find fault in the presentation of Vrook.

 

Based soly on what I have seen and my (undeniable) lack of knowledge in everything Star Wars, his title shall always remain, Sith Lord Vrook to me.

 

PS: That council meeting where they try to strip you of your power reallly makes NO sence what so ever if you have played up to it as a LS Jedi. It was just a badly layed out senario in what otherwise is a awsome and incredible game.

[Dark Jedi Master]

Reason I refer to him as a Sith Lord is he is a prime example of everything a Jedi shouldnt be!

 

While im not a stickler for the Star Wars lore like some readers here, could care less about the EU (novels and other articles) and really coud care less about the continuity of the Star Wars lore as longs as what im playing is fun, there is certain things even I expect and demand stay consitant.

 

One of those things is the True and real Jedi are shining examples of GOOD. They are the examples of people that have forsaken relationships (in theory), material gains, ego driven goals, and above all else...intellegent and wise, for the sake of bettering those around them and sticking up for the little guy. Master Vrook is none of those things.

 

In the game (when you repair the droid at the Dantoine Landing Pad) you learn that Vrook has carried a grudge since your early days as a padawen in the jedi academy. Even back then his arguement regarding you was based on insults and suspicions rather then hard facts and knowledge. Then in the holocron about you being exiled you get the impression once again hes motives are anything but pure and is one of the driving forces in having the council lie to you (Jedi are not suppose to lie).

 

When you save him from the Mercs he is trapped in a cage and you have learned that the mercs are going to attack the settlers REGARDLESS of him being held prisoner (his bounty and the attack planned on the settlers do NOT effect the other). Yet rather then be thank ful and concerned about the settlers he is arrogent and concieted to a fault believing that as long as he is a captive that will satify the mercs (it wont and doesnt). This incident is NOT intellegent, its NOT wise, it is based soly on ones over inflated ego of themselves and would have ultimately done great harm to the settlers if you had not interveined. Yet in his arrogent driven conceit he is unable to see this or just refuses to acknowledge this (again, this is dark side, not light side traits).

*addition*: If you play Dark Side, Vrook doesnt even warn the settlers you have fallen to the darkside and allows them to put their hope and faith in YOU rather then show himself and safe them. He potentially sacrafises them to save himself once again.

 

The REALLY REALLY telling tale for me tho is when they they try to strip your power. While I think all 3 jedi are out of place in the meeting, Vrook again comes of as having personal and ego driven reasons for the act. The fact of the matter is by this time you are the ONLY jedi in existance to not only meet the new sith threat but survive it on two occations now. You have saved the Dant settlers (if playing lightside of course), Saved the Onderon Queen and stabilized their political climate (when the master Jedi there decided to do things behind the sceens to achieve his own agenda at the very posible cost of the queens rule and life), eliminated the exchange from Nar Shadaar and helped countless refugees towards makeing a better life for themselves (when the master jedi there only hid and did nothing for those that could not defend themselves and were being exploited).

 

You have set in place the foundation for the Onderon people to form a uneasy but potentially great self benefiting alliance with the Mandalorians on Dunx and the Onderon people.

 

So after all this, Vrooks choice is a hastily agreement giving no thought or care to the costs of innocent lives and only the current power he currently holds (he says they see the deatyh of the force, but since there is only 4 known jedi left (not counting yourself), he votes to strip you of the force so himself and 3 others maintain connection to the force rather then him losing his own force powers and defeating the current enemy laying waste to the known republic planets.

 

In other words, he chooses 4 people over millions all for greedy and self absorbed reasons.

 

I dont call the other two (Kavar and whats his name on Nar Shadaar) sith because at least prior to the very poorly layed out encounter where they try to strip you of your powers they at least act (or comacross) as jedi. Cowerds yes but still Jedi. Vrook NEVER in the entire game (or really game 1 either if you think back) comes across as jedi'ish. He is driven by hiw own quest for personal power. He is arrogent, acts on his emotions rather then the facts, self obsorbed, and just not very smart or wise. Those traits make for a Sith, not a Jedi, not a padawen, and definately not a member of the Jedi Council. His lust for power is greater then some of the supposive villians you face, but its more dangerous because he hids it behind the false image of the Jedi.

 

As I said at the start, Im not big on the whole EU and all that, I have NEVER even read a Star Wars novel (I prefer fantasy and fiction (The God Father, Oliver Twist, War and Peace, ect) over sci fi) but even I find fault in the presentation of Vrook.

 

Based soly on what I have seen and my (undeniable) lack of knowledge in everything Star Wars, his title shall always remain, Sith Lord Vrook to me.

 

PS: That council meeting where they try to strip you of your power reallly makes NO sence what so ever if you have played up to it as a LS Jedi. It was just a badly layed out senario in what otherwise is a awsome and incredible game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Man you sure have alot of time on your hands...or your just bored...

 

P.S. you spelled awesome wrong. ^_^

[Kalfear]

Man you sure have alot of time on your hands...or your just bored...

 

P.S. you spelled awesome wrong. ^_^

 

LOL, a little of one and alot of the other, take your pick at which is which! heh

[DrSpock]

Vrook is not a Sith Master. Just like it makes no sense that Atris is a Sith Master which is apparently what you're supposed to believe. There is a huge difference about having qualities which LEAD to the dark side (fear, anger, agression) and actually embracing the dark side. Anakin fufills every single darkside emotion in Episode 2, he is afraid at times, he is very angry, he is arrogant of his power, but does this make him someone who follows the dark side of the Force? No! It simply leads to it. As we know in the next movie, this path he has created will be fufilled.

 

This is why it is so ridiculous that the game imposes Atris is darkside, simply because she is arrogant and harbors a grudge against you. She wants to train Jedi, not Sith, even if she has some flaws, how is this darkside? You don't have to be a Yoda with 100% lightside meter or else you're evil, how silly would that be? lol

 

Saying Vrook is a Sith is even more ridiculous. If you say he is a Sith simply because he is often arrogant and holds a grudge, then I guess if everyone on our planet were in the Star Wars Universe, we'd all be Sith! If you recall from the first KotOR, Vrook is the one who doubts you the most, that you truly can follow a different path from that of Revan. If you decide to go the darkside route, then he is even proved right, and his accusations and suspicions have merit!

 

The absurdity that this game tries to imply that anyone with even a hint of bad emotions is darkside is just awful.

[Darth Ravok]

You're looking too much into this Vrook thing, he is a jedi not a sith. Fear may lead to the dark side, but he's not afraid, hes trying to "save" people.

[Carth Vader]

Spoken like a true Sith DrSpock.

[Kalfear]

Vrook is not a Sith Master. Just like it makes no sense that Atris is a Sith Master which is apparently what you're supposed to believe. There is a huge difference about having qualities which LEAD to the dark side (fear, anger, agression) and actually embracing the dark side. Anakin fufills every single darkside emotion in Episode 2, he is afraid at times, he is very angry, he is arrogant of his power, but does this make him someone who follows the dark side of the Force? No! It simply leads to it. As we know in the next movie, this path he has created will be fufilled.

 

This is why it is so ridiculous that the game imposes Atris is darkside, simply because she is arrogant and harbors a grudge against you. She wants to train Jedi, not Sith, even if she has some flaws, how is this darkside? You don't have to be a Yoda with 100% lightside meter or else you're evil, how silly would that be? lol

 

Saying Vrook is a Sith is even more ridiculous. If you say he is a Sith simply because he is often arrogant and holds a grudge, then I guess if everyone on our planet were in the Star Wars Universe, we'd all be Sith! If you recall from the first KotOR, Vrook is the one who doubts you the most, that you truly can follow a different path from that of Revan. If you decide to go the darkside route, then he is even proved right, and his accusations and suspicions have merit!

 

The absurdity that this game tries to imply that anyone with even a hint of bad emotions is darkside is just awful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmmmm thats a different take on things!

 

What I got from Atris was she was sith not only because she allowed her anger to control her and harbored jealousy and grudges but because she was activly learning the sith secrets and embracing them.

 

She does go as far as saying that the old Jedi teachings were incorrect and only she is qualified to teach new jedi under her OWN system (which is a combination of Jedi AND Sith principles).

 

I had no issues what so ever with Srtis being called a Sith as I guessed that part at our original meeting as it was. It was that obvious. Altho I never went as far as calling her a Sith Lord. Regardless of claims it seemed to me she was quite content to learn the sith secrets alone with only her SERVANT around her. She didnt really seem all that interested in gathering or teaching others to be honest. Kinda a Junari character from KotOR1, she ran away and stayed in her self impossed prison/exile while embracing the dark side.

 

Vrook tho is Sith all the way. No doubt about it what so ever.

 

heh, and yes Dr, most folks here would be sith, not jedi if this was reality! Thats whats great about Sci fi and fantasy, you get to play the hero you can never truely be in reality! You get to immerse yourself into a fantasy (imaginary) role. You get to be the character you always wished you could be deep down inside.

 

Thats what RPGs are all about

[horuslvx]

Many good points have been made and there are also some fine rebuttals (well one find rebuttal, from DrSpock, no one else bothered to actually argue the points and just said "blah no blah.")

 

I thought I'd add my page(s) here (since I have a lot of time on my hands, and am very bored) to offer a somewhat different idea about the meeting with the three masters, Atris, and the three masters themselves.

 

The Masters:

 

All of the Jedi Masters from your trial play seperate roles in the game, each being far different from the Jedi who banished you, but all representing aspects of paths available to you in the game. They each have their own viewpoint on "what must be done" and "how to do it," and some have fallen quite far from the epitome of a Jedi. This being a game filled with complex characers with complex agendas and emotions, it isn't so simple to label them as you might think, but I think it is fair to draw some generalizations about them.

 

Quite specifically, if you pick certain dialogue options with Master Kai-Ell on Nar Shaddaa, you will find that he has broken from the Jedi Order and refuses to have anything further to do with the Jedi. He feels the Jedi, and the teachings they have embraced and put forth are responsible for much of the suffering that has occured throughout the galaxy, and therefore has seperated himself from them. He even welcomes your vengeance on him because he himself feels responsible for not speaking out about his worries, taking a firm stance either way about your exile, and most importantly, refusing to act during the Mandalorian Wars. In one game I had to talk him out of forcing me to kill him. With this in mind, I believe he represents the "Gray" Jedi, those who live beyond the Jedi Code but have not fallen to the darkside, and earned my respect immediately for his stance on this, though I can only blame him for his ambivalence as it has affected your whole life and the stability of the Galaxy. At least he realizes his mistakes and decides to "face the music," be it in a final battle with you, or by rejoining the Council on Dantooine. My favorite quote from him is where when you ask about what happened after the trial and he says, "While I won't keep promises to Jedi, I do keep promises to my friends." Quite a complex character for the amount of time he appears in the game.

 

Next in line of those having parted from the Jedi Order, we have Atris, who has gone from Jedi Master to eventually taking on the mantle of Darth Traya. If any of you believe Kreia's answer about not knowing her as well as she should, although she understands her well enough, then you should go back over that comment a few times and compare it carefully to what Kreia lets slip about her own past and the enemies you face, along with her answers at the end. Atris is nearly a mirror for Kreia, and is a key to understanding Kreia's more obscure moments and figuring out the meaning of the ending for each particular path in the game. Firstly, Atris is thought dead by the other Jedi Masters, who are completely taken off guard by the knowledge of the "school" on Telos. The only student at the Telos Academy is Atris herself, as her anger and passion for you (well, passion if you're a male exile) wars within her, her lust for knowledge causes her to _steal_ Jedi Holocrons and artifacts from Dantooine (see the Disciple's dialouge) send looters to the Sith Academy on Korriban (see the poor Twi'leks Datapad and various remains inside) to take Sith Holocrons, and then locking herself for what must be days at a time inside a room filled with them.... Suffice to say the ancient Sith who invested their spirits in those Holocrons found her a willing student. She was on the path to becoming a Sith the day she sat at your trial, she was just taking the final steps down the dark path when you re-entered her life. She represents one path to the darkside, the one Kreia took, where anger combines with a lust for knowledge, leading one ever deeper down the path to the darkside until the idea that it's possible to turn back is forgotten.

 

On the other hand, as the subject of this thread, we have Master Vrook (who could easily win the award for most hated KOTOR character.) Vrook is a representation of the path that leads ever downward through pride. He believes himself to be the last bastion of the Jedi Order, believes himself capable beating any challenge, and most importantly (and most damning,) is arrogant enough to believe that he is beyond reproach for his actions. He firmly states throughout both games that he doesn't trust either player character (Revan or the Exile,) that they shouldn't be trained/allowed to use the Force and that they represent, in his eyes, a danger to all. This sounds an awful lot like jealousy and fear talking to me. He seems to be ever to eager to condemn the player character without even hearing how vindictive and vicious he sounds when he says it. To put it mildly, he envies Revan's strength and the Exile's abilities, envies them their position of pivotal importance to the galaxy, and is constantly wondering why he, a famed and important Jedi Master who sits on the Jedi Council, determining the path all the Jedi will take, is nothing more than a sideshow exhibit. His pride that he is unblemished when all around him have fallen, and his envy of those whose destinies are beyond his ability to imagine, have corrupted him totally; turned him into a fanatic who believes only he has the right to judge others. So this is what he does, he judges all around him, refusing to face the monster that he has become inside. This represents the danger Jedi face from pride, the silent corrupter. That one can become lost to the darkside and still convice themselves that they act for the good of all.

 

Finally we reach Master Kavar, the last true Jedi Master in the galaxy. He is the only one left who continues to follow the true Jedi Code, who believes that his life must be put forth in defense of what is good and right, as he does on Onderon. He is also the only Jedi Master who shows any faith in the Exile and who is actively seeking out the new threat that destroyed the Jedi Order, despite that all who have gone looking have died or disappeared. He is a Jedi Guardian to his last breath, ever facing danger head on at the risk of his own life, faithful to the Code he has served for so long. His only flaw is that very faith. Since he himself is pure, he does not question the purity of the remaining Jedi, and in the end that faith dooms him to death. He represents all that a Jedi is supposed to be, and serves as a wonderful example of what it is to truly care about something more than you do yourself.

 

The Meeting:

 

When you face the three Jedi Masters, it's obvious Vrook has had his way with the others. It would be easy to convince Kavar of the "rightness" of their actions, since his faith doesn't allow him to question it much, considering it's for the "good" of the galaxy that it must be done, despite his friendship and understanding for you. Kai-Ell would be the skeptic, already having come to reject the Jedi Order, although in truth, you yourself are mostly to blame for him agreeing to this plan. By showing faith in the Jedi yourself, you've given him a new purpose in life, to live up to his responsibility as a Jedi Master. With this in mind, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to theorize that after Vrook had convinced Kavar, that he would listen to his friends advice (Kavar's I mean) and accept the 2/3s majority against his dissension and agree.

 

On the subject of them cutting you off from the Force, for a couple of reasons I doubt it would have succeeded, or that they would have lived through it, even without Kreia's intervention. Considering your combined ability to absorb the Force from others and form Force Bonds so quickly and easily, Im of the believe that the act of pouring the amount of Force energy into you that it would require to sever your link would only have drained them until they were nothing more than empty shells. On the second part, since your renewed connection to the Force came from the Bonds you had forged to the planets you visited and to those you traveled with, severing that link would be almost like trying to cut the Force off from all life itself.

 

As an explanation to this, after spending far too much time playing this game and considering the implications throughout all of the dialogue and the story of the game itself, I've come to believe that when people look at you and see a "wound/death/hole" in the Force, that they're in actuality seeing the Force itself. It's no jump in logic to assume that the Exile is instrumental to the survival of the galaxy, and therefore the Force itself, and that the Force has patterened the path your life will take until you are carrying, quite literally, the whole of the Force with you. This is why Kreia sees the death of the Force in you, that if you die then the Force would wither and die. This is why the Master see you as a threat to the Force itself, because you carry it's continued existence on your shoulders. Anyway, thats just a theory that has occured to me, and I think it gives a better perspective on the more difficult and confusing plot points in the game, while also giving a connection between the Exile and Revan (in that Revan was the "heart" of the Force and the Exile is the "corpus" so to speak.)

 

But that's neither here nor there... I'll let yall get back to slandering Vrook so I can enjoy it some more.

 

-horus -lvs-

[Dark Jedi Master]

JUST KEEP IT SIMPLE...LIKE:

 

Yes Vrook is a Sith Lord in Disguise

No Vrook is not a Sith Lord, but sucks as a Jedi Master

 

SEE...SIMPLE

 

I say he...is BOTH :D

[Ostkant]

Well Vrook is just another example of the average Jedi in the KOTOR universe. They all preach, they all have problems forgiving, and refuse to show any sort of gratitude when being saved.

 

Bastila and Vrook are examples - two stubborn Jedi. Atris as well...

 

This is why I hate the Jedi of the KOTOR era, I prefer the Gizkas over them. Nor do I prefer the Sith though... I'd probably just use the Jedi to build up my strength and abandon them. I'd still stick to my favourite side (the Dark side), which would make a simple Dark Jedi, a fallen Jedi.

[ryan12177]

Jedi.. Sith.. they are just words. .. The thing I take from the StarWars universe is that just like the religions we have in the real world, the beliefs and what they truly mean ar ein the eye of the beholder.

 

Christianity before 400 AD was vastly different than the set in satone belief system that it is now and thats no different than StarWars at the time of KOTOR and by the time of the Revenge of the Sith...

 

In the days of KOTOR the concept of jedi's not having attachments etc wasn't as set in stone as it was in the days of Yoda. It wasn't common to have up to 3 padawans for any master and Jedi's were often married. One of the things I do like about the KOTOR story is that it explains whyt he Jedi became more strict with their padawans and started to forbid attachment.

 

Off subject, ut my main view is that the fall of the Jedi was actualyl caused by Yoda moreso than anything else.. think abou tit, you had this guy who believed things should be oenm way and the strict jedi belief system and forbiddence of attachments is what truly caused Vader to turn from the Jedi, not any out and otu need to be evil... If the jedi had realized Yoda was an idiot they'd have avoided their own deaths.

 

 

Oh, and I can't believe you mentioned the GodFather book.. one of the greatest movies of all time.. but one of the absolute worst books ever. You had dazzling sub-plots of a man with a foot long ****, his girlfriend who had to have an operation to fix her **** that was the size of a **** and other such events.. thank god the movie left out Puzo's dumber ideas... but on that note the new Godfather niovel is a lot better than the original, pick it up.

[Kalfear]

Many good points have been made and there are also some fine rebuttals (well one find rebuttal, from DrSpock, no one else bothered to actually argue the points and just said "blah no blah.")

 

I thought I'd add my page(s) here (since I have a lot of time on my hands, and am very bored) to offer a somewhat different idea about the meeting with the three masters, Atris, and the three masters themselves.

 

The Masters: 

 

All of the Jedi Masters from your trial play seperate roles in the game, each being far different from the Jedi who banished you, but all representing aspects of paths available to you in the game.  They each have their own viewpoint on "what must be done" and "how to do it," and some have fallen quite far from the epitome of a Jedi.  This being a game filled with complex characers with complex agendas and emotions, it isn't so simple to label them as you might think, but I think it is fair to draw some generalizations about them.

 

Quite specifically, if you pick certain dialogue options with Master Kai-Ell on Nar Shaddaa, you will find that he has broken from the Jedi Order and refuses to have anything further to do with the Jedi.  He feels the Jedi, and the teachings they have embraced and put forth are responsible for much of the suffering that has occured throughout the galaxy, and therefore has seperated himself from them.  He even welcomes your vengeance on him because he himself feels responsible for not speaking out about his worries, taking a firm stance either way about your exile, and most importantly, refusing to act during the Mandalorian Wars.  In one game I had to talk him out of forcing me to kill him.  With this in mind, I believe he represents the "Gray" Jedi, those who live beyond the Jedi Code but have not fallen to the darkside, and earned my respect immediately for his stance on this, though I can only blame him for his ambivalence as it has affected your whole life and the stability of the Galaxy.  At least he realizes his mistakes and decides to "face the music,"  be it in a final battle with you, or by rejoining the Council on Dantooine.  My favorite quote from him is where when you ask about what happened after the trial and he says, "While I won't keep promises to Jedi, I do keep promises to my friends."  Quite a complex character for the amount of time he appears in the game.

 

Next in line of those having parted from the Jedi Order, we have Atris, who has gone from Jedi Master to eventually taking on the mantle of Darth Traya.  If any of you believe Kreia's answer about not knowing her as well as she should, although she understands her well enough, then you should go back over that comment a few times and compare it carefully to what Kreia lets slip about her own past and the enemies you face, along with her answers at the end.  Atris is nearly a mirror for Kreia, and is a key to understanding Kreia's more obscure moments and figuring out the meaning of the ending for each particular path in the game.  Firstly, Atris is thought dead by the other Jedi Masters, who are completely taken off guard by the knowledge of the "school" on Telos.  The only student at the Telos Academy is Atris herself, as her anger and passion for you (well, passion if you're a male exile) wars within her, her lust for knowledge causes her to _steal_ Jedi Holocrons and artifacts from Dantooine (see the Disciple's dialouge) send looters to the Sith Academy on Korriban (see the poor Twi'leks Datapad and various remains inside) to take Sith Holocrons, and then locking herself for what must be days at a time inside a room filled with them....  Suffice to say the ancient Sith who invested their spirits in those Holocrons found her a willing student.  She was on the path to becoming a Sith the day she sat at your trial, she was just taking the final steps down the dark path when you re-entered her life.  She represents one path to the darkside, the one Kreia took, where anger combines with a lust for knowledge, leading one ever deeper down the path to the darkside until the idea that it's possible to turn back is forgotten.

 

On the other hand, as the subject of this thread, we have Master Vrook (who could easily win the award for most hated KOTOR character.)  Vrook is a representation of the path that leads ever downward through pride.  He believes himself to be the last bastion of the Jedi Order, believes himself capable beating any challenge, and most importantly (and most damning,) is arrogant enough to believe that he is beyond reproach for his actions.  He firmly states throughout both games that he doesn't trust either player character (Revan or the Exile,) that they shouldn't be trained/allowed to use the Force and that they represent, in his eyes, a danger to all.  This sounds an awful lot like jealousy and fear talking to me.  He seems to be ever to eager to condemn the player character without even hearing how vindictive and vicious he sounds when he says it.  To put it mildly, he envies Revan's strength and the Exile's abilities, envies them their position of pivotal importance to the galaxy, and is constantly wondering why he, a famed and important Jedi Master who sits on the Jedi Council, determining the path all the Jedi will take, is nothing more than a sideshow exhibit.  His pride that he is unblemished when all around him have fallen, and his envy of those whose destinies are beyond his ability to imagine, have corrupted him totally;  turned him into a fanatic who believes only he has the right to judge others.  So this is what he does, he judges all around him, refusing to face the monster that he has become inside.  This represents the danger Jedi face from pride, the silent corrupter.  That one can become lost to the darkside and still convice themselves that they act for the good of all.

 

Finally we reach Master Kavar, the last true Jedi Master in the galaxy.  He is the only one left who continues to follow the true Jedi Code, who believes that his life must be put forth in defense of what is good and right, as he does on Onderon.  He is also the only Jedi Master who shows any faith in the Exile and who is actively seeking out the new threat that destroyed the Jedi Order, despite that all who have gone looking have died or disappeared.  He is a Jedi Guardian to his last breath, ever facing danger head on at the risk of his own life, faithful to the Code he has served for so long.  His only flaw is that very faith.  Since he himself is pure, he does not question the purity of the remaining Jedi, and in the end that faith dooms him to death.  He represents all that a Jedi is supposed to be, and serves as a wonderful example of what it is to truly care about something more than you do yourself.

 

The Meeting:

 

When you face the three Jedi Masters, it's obvious Vrook has had his way with the others.  It would be easy to convince Kavar of the "rightness" of their actions, since his faith doesn't allow him to question it much, considering it's for the "good" of the galaxy that it must be done, despite his friendship and understanding for you.  Kai-Ell would be the skeptic, already having come to reject the Jedi Order, although in truth, you yourself are mostly to blame for him agreeing to this plan.  By showing faith in the Jedi yourself, you've given him a new purpose in life, to live up to his responsibility as a Jedi Master.  With this in mind, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to theorize that after Vrook had convinced Kavar, that he would listen to his friends advice (Kavar's I mean) and accept the 2/3s majority against his dissension and agree. 

 

On the subject of them cutting you off from the Force, for a couple of reasons I doubt it would have succeeded, or that they would have lived through it, even without Kreia's intervention.  Considering your combined ability to absorb the Force from others and form Force Bonds so quickly and easily, Im of the believe that the act of pouring the amount of Force energy into you that it would require to sever your link would only have drained them until they were nothing more than empty shells.  On the second part, since your renewed connection to the Force came from the Bonds you had forged to the planets you visited and to those you traveled with, severing that link would be almost like trying to cut the Force off from all life itself. 

 

As an explanation to this, after spending far too much time playing this game and considering the implications throughout all of the dialogue and the story of the game itself, I've come to believe that when people look at you and see a "wound/death/hole" in the Force, that they're in actuality seeing the Force itself.  It's no jump in logic to assume that the Exile is instrumental to the survival of the galaxy, and therefore the Force itself, and that the Force has patterened the path your life will take until you are carrying, quite literally, the whole of the Force with you.  This is why Kreia sees the death of the Force in you, that if you die then the Force would wither and die.  This is why the Master see you as a threat to the Force itself, because you carry it's continued existence on your shoulders.  Anyway, thats just a theory that has occured to me, and I think it gives a better perspective on the more difficult and confusing plot points in the game, while also giving a connection between the Exile and Revan (in that Revan was the "heart" of the Force and the Exile is the "corpus" so to speak.) 

 

But that's neither here nor there...  I'll let yall get back to slandering Vrook so I can enjoy it some more.

 

-horus -lvs-

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LOL, interesting and good write up Horus.

 

Gotta admit I dont follow your line of thinking about Dr. Spock tho, all he basically said was everyone else was wrong with out really backing up his statement (IE: blah blah as you stated) but thats a different discussion for a different time!

 

You made alot of good and interesting points, many of them actually shadowed what I had said but you went way more in depth and involved all the characters.

 

In the end I guess it all comes down to how you veiw the characters and their actions. I agree Kavar is the closet thing to a real jedi left (said as much in my own postings). Nar Shadaar guy just comes off as the cowardly Lion to me. I think the storyline would have been more interesting to be honest if the jedi master on Korriban was the one alive and the Nar Shadaar guy was the one dead to be honest. Whats her name that died on Korriban seemed by far the more interesting of the two characters, but that never really got explored.

 

To myself, Vrook is well on his way to being a Sith Lord. All his actions and motives that drive him embrace the dark said, all that is left is for his to openly admit it.

 

heheh, just for arguement sake tho, I think GoTO wins the award for most HATED KotOR characters! LOL. Vrook (or Hanhaar) might get second place tho!

[Kalfear]

Off subject, ut my main view is that the fall of the Jedi was actualyl caused by Yoda moreso than anything else.. think abou tit, you had this guy who believed things should be oenm way and the strict jedi belief system and forbiddence of attachments is what truly caused Vader to turn from the Jedi, not any out and otu need to be evil... If the jedi had realized Yoda was an idiot they'd have avoided their own deaths.

 

 

Oh, and I can't believe you mentioned the GodFather book.. one of the greatest movies of all time.. but one of the absolute worst books ever. You had dazzling sub-plots of a man with a foot long ****, his girlfriend who had to have an operation to fix her **** that was the size of a **** and other such events.. thank god the movie left out Puzo's dumber ideas... but on that note the new Godfather niovel is a lot better than the original, pick it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Problem with that Ryan is Yoda has played no role what so ever in Old Republic storylines what so ever. Obviously Jedi are falling to the darkside long before either Darth Vader or Yoda became players so how can Yoda be heald responcible? Just something to think about!

 

Also, sorry cant agree. Like most classics, the book was 100000 time better then the movie (which was awsome, dont get me wrong). But the movie ledt entire storylines out for the sake of time restrictions.

 

<snickers> and before you heap to much credit on the movie you should realize that Coppola did such a terrible job first time around that the producer of the movie (after test screening) chewed him a new A###ole and forced him to reedit the entire thing from start to finish (appearantly Coppolas vision of the movie played out like some 4th rate Love Story and lost almost all resemblance it had to the original book other then character names).

 

To each their own tho. Godfather stays as one of the best peices of "modern" literature I have read.

*much much much better then some of the follow up book Puzu wrote*

[cewekeds]

why was the Handmaiden mom kicked out of the order? becacuase she had a child and married.

 

I hated Vrook because he sits back then judge after the fact. Remember Visa says there are many forms of anger and hate. She was sith because of her hate even though she like kindness.

 

Vrook might not be a sith but he was not a Jedi.

[Kalfear]

why was the Handmaiden mom kicked out of the order? becacuase she had a child and married.

 

I hated Vrook because he sits back then judge after the fact. Remember Visa says there are many forms of anger and hate. She was sith because of her hate even though she like kindness.

 

Vrook might not be a sith but he was not a Jedi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, it is forbided to have relationships so she was kicked out and then she joined Revan during the Jedi civil wars where she died.

[DrSpock]

LOL, interesting and good write up Horus.

 

Gotta admit I dont follow your line of thinking about Dr. Spock tho, all he basically said was everyone else was wrong with out really backing up his statement (IE: blah blah as you stated) but thats a different discussion for a different time!

 

You made alot of good and interesting points, many of them actually shadowed what I had said but you went way more in depth and involved all the characters.

 

In the end I guess it all comes down to how you veiw the characters and their actions. I agree Kavar is the closet thing to a real jedi left (said as much in my own postings). Nar Shadaar guy just comes off as the cowardly Lion to me. I think the storyline would have been more interesting to be honest if the jedi master on Korriban was the one alive and the Nar Shadaar guy was the one dead to be honest. Whats her name that died on Korriban seemed by far the more interesting of the two characters, but that never really got explored.

 

To myself, Vrook is well on his way to being a Sith Lord. All his actions and motives that drive him embrace the dark said, all that is left is for his to openly admit it.

 

heheh, just for arguement sake tho, I think GoTO wins the award for most HATED KotOR characters! LOL. Vrook (or Hanhaar) might get second place tho!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I didn't back up my opinion? Did you even pay attention to what I said? I don't need to do an indepth analysis of the plot line to say that it is silly to call Vrook a Sith Lord. You know, maybe you are right, maybe he is, maybe Yoda is too then because Yoda is a little arrogant himself. After all Anakin shows all the signs of going to the dark side and Yoda doesn't even see because he is so absorbed with himself. lol

 

Some of you just overanalysis this waaaayyyy to much. Like I said, which supports my viewpoint completely, just exhibiting some flaws doesn't make you a servant of the darkside! What is so hard to understand about what I am saying? Jedi are not Gods, as shown in this game, and as Jolee shows you in the first one. They make mistakes, and they have flaws like everyone else. There is a huge difference between having a few flaws, and being a Sith Lord.

 

Sith Lords are the apex of evil. They treat life with no respect and feel no remorse for killing millions upon millions of people. A Jedi holds life sacred above all things. Just because Vrook exhibits some arrogance does not make him anywhere close to being a Sith Lord. And, he does not hold a grudge against anyone. He is actually much more intuitive than the other Jedi because in the 1st game he has a feeling you could turn back to the dark side, and in this game he has a similar feeling. This isn't a grudge, its just being cautious.

 

What some of you are saying is that simply because he is arrogant, he is a Sith Lord. So basically, a logical extent of that would be then that Vrook would have no problem killing people and slaughtering thousands of innocents if it suited his goals. But now I'll bet you say that is exactly what he did do by not voting to join the Mandalorian Wars.

 

The reason they did not go in the Wars is because it was the quick and easy path, the obvious choice for victory. The Council was afraid that a greater threat might come of their joining the Madalorian Wars. And despite the Pro-Madalorian War tilt your character possess in this game and the therefore biased view you're presented, the Council was right. The Jedi who did join the war were almost wholly corrupted by the Dark Side. They followed Revan once they saw how much power they could wield so easily through the Dark Side of the force. So the Council's wisdom was indeed correct, despite the many attempts this game, contrary to the original, makes to change your mind.

 

There is something called the greater good, and the greater purpose, and that is why Vrook and the other Masters did not join the war. So for those that will cite this as an example of his willingness to through away lives, you're just being narrow minded and only seeing the facts that you want to. Calling him a Sith Lord is just so ridiculous I can't imagine how anyone could say such a fallacy.

 

If you're so right and he is a Sith Lord, then I want you to tell me how he is just like Malak, Nihilus, Palpatine, and Vader. Because if he is, then you're saying he is just as evil as them. His few personality traits certainly don't amount to anything close, so you're arugments are just completely flawed.

 

Just think about it logically.

[anakins revenge]

i wouldnt call him a sith, but i would say he has a huge ego and is senile.

but the jedi had to make choices when they felt somethin behind the mandalorian wars, and they were right, and in their minds they were SAVING more lives by letting the republic fight in the rim because it was less populated than the inner and core worlds. the jedi are to few to fight wars and still protect the republic. so it was a good thing in my opinion that revan turned cuz it destroyed many jedi who were corrupt, and now the order can redefine itself- each time it starts over it isnt as corrupt. Also the republic will stop depending on the jedi to help if a planetary leader gets a hangnail on anothe world and tries to declare war and strenghtens them in other ways by making them do things for themselves and makin it grow out of a little kid phase

[thepixiesrock]

I will tell you why he is no jedi... If you have Surlu (Guy that you get moisture vaporizers back for) on Dantoine join the Khoonda malitia, then when Vrook shows you a new fighting style he actually attacks Surlu! It was apauling to see a once great jedi fall to the dark path so quickly...

[jaguars4ever]

I will tell you why he is no jedi...  If you have Surlu (Guy that you get moisture vaporizers back for) on Dantoine join the Khoonda malitia, then when Vrook shows you a new fighting style he actually attacks Surlu!  It was apauling to see a once great jedi fall to the dark path so quickly...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So is wasn't just my game. Poor Surlu was so badly wounded he didn't even have any thing to say.

[Jedi_Master_Darkor]

I will tell you why he is no jedi...  If you have Surlu (Guy that you get moisture vaporizers back for) on Dantoine join the Khoonda malitia, then when Vrook shows you a new fighting style he actually attacks Surlu!  It was apauling to see a once great jedi fall to the dark path so quickly...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That idiot Vrook. Acts like an idiot and thinks like a padawan. He's a bigger whiner than Carth. I particularly savored the moment when I used his own Force form against him in my DS game. The buffon is too immature to believe it. I enjoyed sapping his Force.

 

BTW, how do you get Sulru to join the Militia?

[thepixiesrock]

You get his vaporators back from Joran. Also you can get Joran to join the military. You just have to ask Zherron what need to be done around khoonda before the battle and he tells you the malitia needs more men.

[Jedi_Master_Darkor]

Thanks.

[thepixiesrock]

So did I. I only mentioned Joran because you had to talk to him anyway. I was going to leave a little suprise in his game but unfortunetly you ruined it...