Influence System Observations

[EnderAndrew]

Okay. I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about Influence. And then I began worrying about how it might adversely affect the game, especially people playing DS. However, I observed Princess Sarah playing the game and I've noticed a few things.

 

Influence checks come into play mainly when you deal direclty with said NPC. If you kill people, and act like an evil bastard, the game seems to allow for that. If party members reacted adversely every single time, there would be no possible way to turn someone to the dark side, since you'd lose influence with any DS action.

 

In the very beginning of the game, Sarah got some plenty of DS points before the first influence opportunity. When she spoke to the party members, and they argued over the course of action, you could choose to assure either member, or insult either member. You were going to gain a point of inlfuence with either member, or lose influence with one.

 

Looking at the dialogue options, I could see a Sith Lord answering any of the four options, and a Jedi answering any of the four options. Palpatine is an evil bastard who used flattery, and Obi-Wan Kenobi is a Jedi who had little to no compassion for the Gungans, and didn't hesitate to call Jar-Jar "another pathetic creature".

 

People are missing the fact that the Dark Side path is more akin to a true Sith Lord. You can lie to your party members, placate them, and then twist them to do evil deeds. Once you have influence on them, you can corrupt them completely. If you constantly tell your party members to screw off and attempt to bully them, you're not going to turn many people.

 

This isn't a bug. This isn't a broken system.

 

This is exactly as it should be.

 

If the system were changed as some people have asked (where if you turned someone dark, you'd suddenly get influence for doing dark things etc.) then basically you'd automatically get inlfuence with every party member for doing whatever you were going to do anyway with no effort. That's a broken system.

 

Even if you corrupt someone in your brief time with them, they will have their innate instincts and personality they've developed over years. You might push someone towards violence, passion and anger, but that doesn't mean they desire innocent people to be bullied for no reason.

 

We asked for a better dark side path, and we got one.

[nightcleaver]

Exactly. There are even a few chances you have to do an ostensibly lightside action and turn it into something evil.

 

 

Perhaps it's not perfect, though, because their alignment doesn't seem to affect their reactions to what you do/say to them. I think that's relatively minor though, because in real life, you get someone to value your opinion highly, but if you break their trust of your opinions, there'll be hell to pay.

[EnderAndrew]

Realism vs. Game Balance is always a tricky thing.

 

There was a particular quest that popped up. My girlfriend is playing DS, and didn't want to start the quest because it only seemed to have LS potential. Yet, as the quest developed she had a new opportunity to twist the seemingly heroic action into a cruel and self-serving one.

 

If you think like a Sith Lord, and not a thug, you'll see more in this game.

[nightcleaver]

Yeah, and if you recognize that you don't have to take every apparently evil action. The games easy enough as it is that the LS/DS mastery is pretty superfluous.

[Volourn]

"If you kill people, and act like an evil bastard, the game seems to allow for that. If party members reacted adversely every single time, there would be no possible way to turn someone to the dark side, since you'd lose influence with any DS action."

 

And, you consider this a good thing? Geez.. It's no different than KOTOR1. then again, in KOTOR1 they at least said something though, of course, they did nothing.

 

Meh. I'm sure the influence system has some good qualities; but it's nowhere as good as I thought it was gonna be.

 

My 'influence system' for what I'm working on accomplishes both..

 

Meh.. KOTOR2 will still be fun... :cool:

[Judge Hades]

Meh.. KOTOR2 will still be fun... :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If it works.

[Volourn]

It will and it does.

[Judge Hades]

Tell that to the X-Box users that are having problems.

[maia]

But shouldn't the fall to DS affect NPC's reactions and perspective? I mean, it is such a huge thing in SW universe... They may still dislike certain type of behaviour, but their reasons should change - for instance they might think that it is too petty for a Sith Lord and thus demeaning or a sign that the PC thinks small or that it is a useless loss of time, etc.

Also, doesn't being solicitious to your party NPCs in order to get influence result in LS points? I hear that there is no option to lie to them.

 

Now, I also think that change of alignment is a very serious matter and should have been played through a quest or a side-event like in KOTOR1 (only there the NPC's either didn't follow your evil advice or if they did - like Mission betraying the Beks, it had no effect on alignment) . Actually the ideal would be a combination of both systems - i.e you'd have to gain enough influence with an NPC for their quest to activate.

 

Their likes/dislikes or at least reasons for them should change along with alignment change. If after the change the PC persists in doing things they hate, however, their alignment shouldn't change again - such flip-flopping just trivialises the whole fall/redemption issue. Instead, they should just become less and less helpful and more derisive and eventually they should leave the party and/or fight the PC, etc. It would also be awesome if an NPC that left the party in scorn subsequently appeared at the side of your enemy in a boss fight, etc.

[bodrock]

Okay.  I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about Influence.  And then I began worrying about how it might adversely affect the game, especially people playing DS.  However, I observed Princess Sarah playing the game and I've noticed a few things.

 

Influence checks come into play mainly when you deal direclty with said NPC.  If you kill people, and act like an evil bastard, the game seems to allow for that.  If party members reacted adversely every single time, there would be no possible way to turn someone to the dark side, since you'd lose influence with any DS action.

 

In the very beginning of the game, Sarah got some plenty of DS points before the first influence opportunity.  When she spoke to the party members, and they argued over the course of action, you could choose to assure either member, or insult either member.  You were going to gain a point of inlfuence with either member, or lose influence with one.

 

Looking at the dialogue options, I could see a Sith Lord answering any of the four options, and a Jedi answering any of the four options.  Palpatine is an evil bastard who used flattery, and Obi-Wan Kenobi is a Jedi who had little to no compassion for the Gungans, and didn't hesitate to call Jar-Jar "another pathetic creature".

 

People are missing the fact that the Dark Side path is more akin to a true Sith Lord.  You can lie to your party members, placate them, and then twist them to do evil deeds.  Once you have influence on them, you can corrupt them completely.  If you constantly tell your party members to screw off and attempt to bully them, you're not going to turn many people.

 

This isn't a bug.  This isn't a broken system.

 

This is exactly as it should be.

 

If the system were changed as some people have asked (where if you turned someone dark, you'd suddenly get influence for doing dark things etc.) then basically you'd automatically get inlfuence with every party member for doing whatever you were going to do anyway with no effort.  That's a broken system.

 

Even if you corrupt someone in your brief time with them, they will have their innate instincts and personality they've developed over years.  You might push someone towards violence, passion and anger, but that doesn't mean they desire innocent people to be bullied for no reason.

 

We asked for a better dark side path, and we got one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I absolutely agree -- it's allzabout being manipulative.

[GhostofAnakin]

Glad to hear that, Ender. This makes me a happy camper.

[EnderAndrew]

But shouldn't the fall to DS affect  NPC's reactions and perspective? I mean,  it is such a huge thing in SW universe...  They may still dislike certain type of behaviour, but their reasons should change - for instance they might think that it is too petty for a Sith Lord and thus demeaning or a sign that the PC thinks small or that it is a useless loss of time, etc.

Also, doesn't being solicitious to your party NPCs in order to get influence result in LS points? I hear that there is no option to lie to them.

 

Now,  I also think that change of alignment is a very serious matter and should have been played through a quest or a side-event like in KOTOR1 (only there the NPC's either  didn't follow your evil advice or if they did - like Mission betraying the Beks, it had no effect on alignment) . Actually the ideal would be a combination of both systems - i.e you'd have to gain enough influence with an NPC for their quest to activate.

 

Their likes/dislikes or at least reasons for them should change along with alignment change.  If after the change the PC persists in doing things they hate, however,  their alignment shouldn't change again - such flip-flopping just trivialises the whole fall/redemption issue. Instead, they should just become less and less helpful and more derisive and eventually they should leave the party and/or fight the PC, etc. It would also be awesome if an  NPC that left the party in scorn subsequently appeared at the side of your enemy in a boss fight, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the first thing I thought of when other people brought up influence complaints.

 

I thought of how I would design it differently. Then it occured to me that there is a problem.

 

Let's say you decide to turn NPC1 into a dark sider. This NPC gives you influence points by being nice. Being a bully seems to turn him off. Yet, you can corrupt him to the dark side by playing upon his passions. As he becomes more and more dark, should he's be affected less by bullying?

 

Yes and no.

 

If we can now bully without reprieve, then influence means nothing. He agrees with what you do either way. From a game mechanic perspective we can't do that. Part of the replay value and challenge of KOTOR:2 is gaining influence with different NPCs. You can't please them all, all of the time.

 

I think the best way to handle this is to be careful how influence checks are handled later in the game.

[LoneWolf16]

I don't get it.

 

This system they've got certainly seems more sithly than KOTOR's constant bullying. First, people were complaining that the DS route was too direct, and made the PC seem like nothing more than a thug. Now, when the system has been revamped to be a much more...subtle, insidious type of thing...people whine that they can't bully their party members around.

 

I thought the sith were more than just brutish morons. I thought they worked in nice, evil, manipulative ways, turning friends against eachother and causing the downfall of all that is good by pulling certain strings within it.

 

Guess I was wrong. Thanks Ender, agree with ya wholeheartedly.

[EnderAndrew]

You can bully your party members into a few things, but it's really not that effective.

[i c stupid people]

an example: you want handmaiden to trust you, problem is your evil she isnt, what do you do? basically what you have to do is bite the bullet. do things that the handmaiden approves of like being nice to people and giving them a fair fight. this will help you gain influence.

 

possible spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

an example of gaining influence with handmaiden: your at Dantooine in the sublevels that Jorran guy is down there trapped behind a door. you kill all of the enemies in the area and let him out. If you decide to kill him for all the artifacts he salvaged handmaiden will not approve because she believes in the whole fair fight crap. this willl lose influence.

to gain it you just have to be nice to him and pay him for the stuff hes found. sadly this will gain you LS points. the payoff is influence with handmaiden which will eventually turn her.

[maia]

If we can now bully without reprieve, then influence means nothing.  He agrees with what you do either way.  From a game mechanic perspective we can't do that.  Part of the replay value and challenge of KOTOR:2 is gaining influence with different NPCs.  You can't please them all, all of the time.

 

I think the best way to handle this is to be careful how influence checks are handled later in the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

OTOH, isn't the goal of influencing NPC's alignment to get companions that agree with you? I mean, what's the point of "redeeming" somebody if they still react negatively if you chose LS options? IMHO, as their alignment changes, either NPC's priorities should also change, or/and their reasons for them should change. Or maybe the most important of NPC's likes/dislikes shouldn't be aligned along the LS/DS axis to begin with.

 

For instance, let's say there is an NPC who worships courage and reacts negatively when you duck any challenge. He starts dark, but you can redeem him. You'd still lose influence with him if you don't accept challenges, but your other LS choices shouldn't upset him anymore. Etc.

 

Or an LS char that hated bullying to begin with might still hate it after becoming DS - as a sign of PC's weakness and small-mindedness, but would heartily endorse other DS actions.

 

Further, you should be able to lessen a negative impact of your actions on an NPC to certain degree via high persuasion - explaining to the first how battling insignificant opponents is beneath you, for instance, and to the second that it is helping you towards the main goal, etc.

 

I'd really love a game where I could slowly corrupt a young idealist via the "end sanctifies the means", "it's us or them" and "sacrifices must be made for the good of the future generations" route that works so well in RL ...

[EnderAndrew]

What you're asking for can be accomplished to a sense, but would be very difficult and complex.

 

I think the influence system is 5 steps in the right direction.

[Dread]

I will preface this by saying that I haven't played through as much as some of you, so this might be moot, but observing a few things that I will put under spoiler text.

 

 

What the dialog with other party members seems to lack is more opportunities to Lie to them. To give an example from the beginning of the game:

 

When I rescue Atton/Bao Dur/T3 from various prisons, most of the time they apologize for getting captured, and you're given some options like the following, to paraphrase:

 

Evil: You should be. Fail me again, and I'll kill you.

Less Evil: You should be. I need competent companions not dolts.

Neutral: That's alright. Just get back to the ship.

Good: It wasn't your fault, I'm glad to have you at my side.

 

Now, as an aspiring Sith Lord, who is more of a quiet Sideous type character, I would want to make my companion think that I valued him (which I do, as a tool), and make him think that I am a person he can trust and look up to. That I judge situations fairly, and that he can place his faith in me and become that much more loyal to myself and my goals.

 

So, I'm going to tell him the good option. Now, because I am being "good" and "understanding", I'm getting Light Side points. When in reality, I only want to appear good and understanding to the NPC.

 

So, in summation, it would have been nice to have a fifth option along the lines of:

 

[Lie?Persuade]: Don't worry about it. It wasn't your fault. I value you as a comrade.

 

And later, when they think I'm an angel, and trust in me completely, I can start twisting them with a few carefully guided conversations that get them to believe that the ends justify the means.

 

[montrossx]

This isn't a bug.  This isn't a broken system.

 

This is exactly as it should be.

 

 

You are incorrect. This is an influence system. Here is a definition for you. "A power affecting a person, thing, or course of events". Your character DOES NOT for the most part affect your party members. If you do not continue the conversation trees according to how the NPCs want you to answer them, you get shut out of their storylines. This is especially true on the DS playthrough. I know because I have played through both sides. What you get is influence failure for Kreia, Atton, and Disciple just off the top of my head. I am sorry, but you should be able to influence through fear just as you influence through care. You are supposed to be this powerful dark Jedi, yet you just let everyone slide when they won't answer your questions? That is simply because the influence system is not correct. _YOU_, the leader and central figure of this game, do NOT influence almost anyone.

[Icon]

Being a PC user I haven't played yet, but I did get a chance to take a look through the cluebook(spoilers don't ruin a game for me). The thing that caught my eye was in Kreia's section on influence. It had conversation options you could get if your influence was suitably high OR low. From what little I saw, a LOW influence was just as good as a high one, as the main options came with both. Anyone know if this is actually the case? It sort of makes sense, in a DS intimidation factor/LS kill 'em with kindness sort of way.

[EnderAndrew]

Well, you can influence and change your NPCs.

 

Yes, you can say the wrong things and get them to shut themselves off to you.

 

Just like real life.

 

If you bully them, you're probably not going to get too far with many of the party members.

 

Just like real life.

 

If you tell party members what they want to hear, and twist upon their existing feelings, you can change them. I've personally watched light side characters become dark side. I've watched NPCs that used to bitch about evil deeds gladly take part in them, and comment accordingly.

 

What more did you want?

 

Personally, I think the influence system went over a few people's heads on the first play through.

[PrincessSarah]

I did nothing but gain influence with Atton and succeeded on all the influence dialogue options.

[Baneblade]

Well, you can influence and change your NPCs.

 

- The changes are cosmetic.

 

Yes, you can say the wrong things and get them to shut themselves off to you.

 

If you bully them, you're probably not going to get too far with many of the party members.

 

Just like real life.

 

- this part worked

 

 

If you tell party members what they want to hear, and twist upon their existing feelings, you can change them.  I've personally watched light side characters become dark side.  I've watched NPCs that used to bitch about evil deeds gladly take part in them, and comment accordingly.

 

- I didn't notice any change in their attitudes or dialogues.

 

 

What more did you want?

 

- Couple of extra lines of dialogue and few triggers, the ability to

lie to your team members

 

 

Personally, I think the influence system went over a few people's heads on the first play through.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

- You're full of it, personally I think you're just easy to please.

[Ludozee]

Personally, I think the influence system went over a few people's heads on the first play through.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

- You're full of it, personally I think you're just easy to please.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I foresee a very familiar discussion developing... "

[PrincessSarah]

There's no need to resort to name calling here. That's already gone too far in another thread.

 

Some think the influence system works. Others don't. So let's just leave it at that.

 

On the subject of Atton...

So Atton used to be this uber bad guy, killing Jedi left and right. But one day, that was too much. So he gave it up.

 

Atton had completley given up on that lifestyle. He had washed his hands of all of i.

 

This is where influence comes into play.

 

If you're LS (like my fiance), you gain influence with Atton, and all he can say is how "refreshing it is to see someone be such a bastion of light".

 

If you're DS, you gain influence with Atton by gaining one or two measly LS points. Then he'll confess, and agree to join you on the Dark Side. Now when we'r killing random innocent NPC's, he says "Glad we got the jump on them"

 

If the influence system didn't work, none of this would happen.