Its official 8.5 Graphics= Lazy Dev

Darth Somethingorother · December 4, 2004

I was surprised by these comments. I really was expecting/hoping for a great storyline with a gigantic twist

To be quite honest we were told not to expect a twist long ago and twists alone don't decide how good a plot arc may be. It would be repetative. I'm really quite surprised at peoples reaction though. It recieved a high score, yet you all seem to focus on the few negatives. Where is your faith?

If you're all so fickle why have you all been here, posting and salivating, waiting for this very game?

Psst. And since when has KOTOR been described as a sweeping epic?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

'ere, 'ere! I like the idea of lots of little twists, it makes it all so much darker- coz it means that what's really going on in the story is revealed as you go along, giving you a feeling of deceit and treachery- like you can't trust anyone, and from what I've been reading, that's exactly what the devs were going for. The effect by the end of the game is still the same (in that it hasn't ended like you thought it would at the beginning)

Lacan · December 4, 2004

To be quite honest we were told not to expect a twist long ago and twists alone don't decide how good a plot arc may be. It would be repetative. I'm really quite surprised at peoples reaction though. It recieved a high score, yet you all seem to focus on the few negatives. Where is your faith?

If you're all so fickle why have you all been here, posting and salivating, waiting for this very game?

Psst. And since when has KOTOR been described as a sweeping epic?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wasn't told anything, considering I wasn't here. I was basing my expectations on Chris Avellone's previous work.

I have expectations, not faith. I NEVER put faith in games, you get burned more often than not.

A sweeping epic? I thought the goal was to aim high.

Gheralt · December 4, 2004

I wouldn't call KotOR a sweeping epic. It was enjoyable. Very enjoyable. It did, however, follow a very set in stone pattern with elements that Bioware has used before in other games.

Even Neverwinter Nights wasn't original in the "go to four places, then gear up for the next part" motif. Legend of Zelda games just about always do that system. I will summarize A Link to the Past: Find three pendants. Get sword. Fight evil boss. Move to next world. Find 8 (or was it 9? Been a while) crystals. Fight final boss. Done.

So, that's a tested (repeatedly, repeatedly) formula for gaming.

Now, in both Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment, you were a Somebody who didn't know he was a Somebody when the game began. Sound familar? It should!

I wouldn't call something "epic" because it involves going to multiple worlds and the fate of the universe is at stake. But then, I'm majoring in Latin and History, and, having read enough Homer, Vergil, Beowulf, and Milton to make one ill, I know that "fancy, variable scenery and impending DOOM" aren't what make epic poetry epic. I won't bore you with the specifics. But I've read epic, and KotOR isn't it. :ermm:

Still, it's a very enjoyable game with an enjoyable (if predictable) story, and that's what counts.

Yes, I said some point on Dantooine, "Hrm. I'm Revan." ;P

--Gheralt

Spook · December 4, 2004

If the graphic is bad it's because it's on xbox. When it comes on PC it will be awsome. :ermm: "

gstommylee · December 4, 2004

you know what i think they should have each game type should has its own stanard from a game form that type not coparing kotor II to halo 2

Gromnir · December 4, 2004

oh come now. clearly you is being silly. notice we compare half-life 2 to vampires game, and halo2 to kotor2? obviously there is different standards as 'tween the various platforms. do not reduce your argument to such ridiculous levels that it becomes meaningless.

is no reason not to compare halo2 to kotor or vampire:bloodlines to half-life2.

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I don't think a comparison to different genres is very comparable. Fair? Who knows? Helpful? Not really. I would imagine the coding is vastly different for a shooter than an rpg. Also, writing thousands of pages of dialogue allocates resources toward that end instead of graphics. Not much dialogue in Halo. So should they be penalized because the nature of the game is different? A straight comparison is not helpful, the nature of shooters will always place their graphics quality above an rpg. A genre comparison seems more realistic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the whole notion of numeric reviews with limited categories is bunk, but to try and split up each category even further and to compare w/i a genre, especially in this day and age, would make such reviews relatively meaningless. when dungeon siege came out, many people were impressed with its graphics. game scored very well in graphics. not much dialogue in that game. as noted above, the notion of there being clear-cut genres is an increasingly specious one. if you wanna hang your argument on a genre by genre breakdown, then you is in for a world of hurt.

also of note is that nobody suggests that the music or sound in a crpg should be weaker simply 'cause of all the dialogue that had to be written. heck, is not like the people who is doing the dialogue is also doing sound and programming too.

if graphics is a secondary concern for folks, then why does they care if it not score as well as halo2?

HA! Good Fun!

Lacan · December 4, 2004

the whole notion of numeric reviews with limited categories is bunk, but to try and split up each category even further and to compare w/i a genre, especially in this day and age, would make such reviews relatively meaningless. when dungeon siege came out, many people were impressed with its graphics. game scored very well in graphics. not much dialogue in that game. as noted above, the notion of there being clear-cut genres is an increasingly specious one. if you wanna hang your argument on a genre by genre breakdown, then you is in for a world of hurt.

also of note is that nobody suggests that the music or sound in a crpg should be weaker simply 'cause of all the dialogue that had to be written. heck, is not like the people who is doing the dialogue is also doing sound and programming too.

if graphics is a secondary concern for folks, then why does they care if it not score as well as halo2?

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm in for a world of hurt? Not really, because I don't care much about reviews. Just pointing out that uncategorized comparisons are fairly meaningless. Most every game shares some convention with a genre. FPS, RPG, RTS, MMO can still be characterized by substantial differences and shared conventions.

Of course not. But certainly you realize it takes money to hire people to write that dialogue. You have a finite amount of resources to complete a project. A decision must be made to cut certain things, such as r&d in a graphics engine.

Again, I don' care. I just believe it's misleading.

Gromnir · December 4, 2004

p.s. some of you might have a leg to stand on if the numeric categories that gamespot and ign uses necessarily were weighted equally to get a final score... but they ain't.

HA! Good Fun!

Lacan · December 4, 2004

p.s. some of you might have a leg to stand on if the numeric categories that gamespot and ign uses necessarily were weighted equally to get a final score... but they ain't.

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which is why I never claimed it did??? It does state this at the bottom of every review, on both sites iirc.

Gromnir · December 4, 2004

"I'm in for a world of hurt? Not really, because I don't care much about reviews."

not see how that observation helps your argument none.

" Just pointing out that uncategorized comparisons are fairly meaningless. Most every game shares some convention with a genre. FPS, RPG, RTS, MMO can still be characterized by substantial differences and shared conventions."

again, your observation does the opposite of what you wish. games is increasingly becoming cross-genre titles, and attempts to divide according to genre gives us a standard that becomes proportionally meaningless. is dungeon siege more adventure or role-play? is there some formula based on % of adventure to rp that we can use to come up with an appropriate value for graphics? for each game we would have to come up with a different formula. avoid this kinda calculus not help us neither. after all, does it make sense that a simple re-categorization would result in a game getting two completely different scores?

"Of course not. But certainly you realize it takes money to hire people to write that dialogue. You have a finite amount of resources to complete a project. A decision must be made to cut certain things, such as r&d in a graphics engine."

this is true in any game. genre not change this. is always up to a developer to spend more resources on programming as posed to other aspects.

"Again, I don' care."

we noticed, and is hardly moved by the recognition o' your apathy. is also maybe why your arguments make less and less sense as we go along.

HA! Good Fun!

manifestus · December 4, 2004

Hrm ... what a convoluted yet meaningless argument you propose. Every game is an amalgamation of a variety of factors. As you adroitly pointed out, games have been shuffling towards a cross-genre feel. So what? KOTOR2 is meant to be it's own game -- it's not Deus Ex, Halo, MGS, or GTA.

It's our natural tendency to compare games like Half-Life 2 to Vampire Bloodlines -- jeez they use the same Source engine. Being the first two games to utilize the Source engine, people were expecting a bit more out of Vampire Bloodlines graphically (maybe not to the same extent as Half Life 2, but there is a certain bar they were looking for and it definitely did NOT meet it -- I've played both and can safely make that comment).

For KOTOR2 ... I don't care much about the graphics. I'm looking for a gameplay experience, and the short turnaround (this wasn't a 4 year dev cycle buddies) means that I don't expect much to change graphically from the last KOTOR. Take a look at Halo 2 -- graphically how much "better"does it look from the initial one? Yeah some things improved, but it's essentially the same as the original. Don't fix what ain't broken. The graphics weren't broken -- they worked. While it may be NICE to gripe and whine about everything they could have done, it's pointless. They added weather effects. And hell, if you're so pissed, go mod it yourself when it comes on the PC, rather than complaining about the various nuances to the game that aren't going to change regardless. If you don't like it, don't play it -- the graphical issues in Vampire: Bloodlines pissed me off so I stopped playing the game. There you go.

Lacan · December 4, 2004

"not see how that observation helps your argument none."

Not see why it should have to. Are we being graded? Simple statement, you said I was in for a world of hurt. A hugely exaggerated statement in relation to me.

"again, your observation does the opposite of what you wish. games is increasingly becoming cross-genre titles, and attempts to divide according to genre gives us a standard that becomes proportionally meaningless. is dungeon siege more adventure or role-play? is there some formula based on % of adventure to rp that we can use to come up with an appropriate value for graphics? for each game we would have to come up with a different formula. avoid this kinda calculus not help us neither. after all, does it make sense that a simple re-categorization would result in a game getting two completely different scores?"

Maybe in the future a larger number of games will be cross-genre. Today they are still clearly defined. Dungeon Siege is an old example, imo, and doesn't represent a trend. Halo 2, HL2, TSL, World of Warcraft, the games generating current buzz, are all clearly defined. I don't think it's any mystical formula, it's simply in which genre the game is marketed.

"this is true in any game. genre not change this. is always up to a developer to spend more resources on programming as posed to other aspects."

Highly disagree. The genre and type of game you are marketing determines where you allocate resources.

"we noticed, and is hardly moved by the recognition o' your apathy. is also maybe why your arguments make less and less sense as we go along."

Wasn't expecting to move you. But throwing around 'then why does they care if it not score as well as halo2" is incorrect. I'm just pointing out that I don't care, and am curious as to why you keep bringing it up. My argument is pretty clear, feigned confusion on your part is apparent.

Gromnir · December 4, 2004

"Not see why it should have to. Are we being graded? Simple statement, you said I was in for a world of hurt. A hugely exaggerated statement in relation to me. "

in regards to your continued attempts to support such arguments as you has been making, yes, you is/will be in for a world of hurt. am not seeing what is so difficult to grasp.

and as to your observation 'bout cross-genre titles being aberrational rather than representing a trend, we thinks you has not paid much attention over the past couple of years. is a time when kotor would not have been considered a serious rpg. the aforementioned vampire game were accused of being a quasi-shooter game. more and more games is becoming cross-platform and cross-genre. heck, name the hard-core rpgs coming out next year... ones that is arguably not cross-genre. last year we had numerous adventure rpgs like sacred and divine divinity 2 and next year we get... freedom force? nope... is cross-genre. jade empires? cross-genre. how

Lacan · December 4, 2004

"in regards to your continued attempts to support such arguments as you has been making, yes, you is/will be in for a world of hurt. am not seeing what is so difficult to grasp.

and as to your observation 'bout cross-genre titles being aberrational rather than representing a trend, we thinks you has not paid much attention over the past couple of years. is a time when kotor would not have been considered a serious rpg. the aforementioned vampire game were accused of being a quasi-shooter game. more and more games is becoming cross-platform and cross-genre. heck, name the hard-core rpgs coming out next year... ones that is arguably not cross-genre. last year we had numerous adventure rpgs like sacred and divine divinity 2 and next year we get... freedom force? nope... is cross-genre. jade empires? cross-genre. how

Gromnir · December 4, 2004

this is getting stoopid. somebody do lacan a favor and type "cross-genre" and "computer games" into a search engine for him. even the obsidian developers has, from time to time, noted the increasing move twoards blurring the genres and even the distinctions 'tween pc and console platforms.

silliness.

"I would like an accurate evaluation of a game's qualities, and the only way I see to make them accurate is to compare by genre."

well then, you do care. please make up your mind.

HA! Good Fun!

anakins revenge · December 5, 2004

they did have a very tight deadline, its kinda lucasarts fault, they wanted to maximize profits by putting it out near christmas. The only thing im tired of is comparing kotor 2 to halo2, completely different genres and saying halo 2 is better, halo 2 has good graphics, but a ****ty story, kotor2-good story, better than average graphics, i think it should be more like the new final fantasy 11 graphics in the next one

shahmirTSL · December 5, 2004

I say 9.3 is just their opinion...

After all it hasnt been released yet and I feel confident that it will actually be better than 9.3

I think that Gamespot will give a higher review so check for that on monday Dec. 6

GhostofAnakin · December 5, 2004

I say 9.3 is just their opinion...

After all it hasnt been released yet and I feel confident that it will actually be better than 9.3

I think that Gamespot will give a higher review so check for that on monday Dec. 6

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What makes gamespot's review more important? And if gamespot gives it a lower score, does that mean that IGN's score is now more important?

It's all semantics when it comes to reviews. It's personal opinion of the reviewer. Nothing more.

shahmirTSL · December 5, 2004

If u guys still feel down about the 9.3 thing then I could remind the X-BOX owners to not forget about the revenge of the sith game

http://www.lucasarts.com/ep3/

I gave the site because of the backround change on the site

shahmirTSL · December 5, 2004

I say 9.3 is just their opinion...

After all it hasnt been released yet and I feel confident that it will actually be better than 9.3

I think that Gamespot will give a higher review so check for that on monday Dec. 6

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What makes gamespot's review more important? And if gamespot gives it a lower score, does that mean that IGN's score is now more important?

It's all semantics when it comes to reviews. It's personal opinion of the reviewer. Nothing more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True Dat ... True Dat

But to tell the truth I'm gonna read all the reviews anyway for random reasons "

Lifthransir Bane · December 5, 2004

Page 8 of this thread reads like this crap paper I wrote drunk at 5 am for a Latin American Revolutions class in my freshman year of college.

The professor was Colombian-born and so I figured if I used infrequent (and sometimes incorrect) lexicology and uncommon (borderline Shakespearean) grammatical patterns I could obfuscate the inescapable veracity of the notion that I knew punctiliously nothing about the Nicaraguan revolution.

I think I got, like, a c minus or something, but on the bright side, I got my paper back about two weeks after everyone else, presumably because the professor had to use a dictionary or get help in grading it.

At least I stuck it to the man.

What are the excuses of the page 8 posters for writing this sophomore termpaper crap and passing it off as intellectualism?

MASTER · December 5, 2004

as long as they are better than this http://www.jk3files.com/screenshots/38/files2/24215_2.jpg

Lifthransir Bane · December 5, 2004

Kotor is story driven.

If the graphics are at least good enough to not detract from the story (and the story's good) I'll be giddy.

Dark_Consular · December 5, 2004

as long as they are better than this http://www.jk3files.com/screenshots/38/files2/24215_2.jpg

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is that from?

MASTER · December 5, 2004

I have no idea was doing a search for a pic and that was one of them. I would geuss some one was trying to mod.

Its official 8.5 Graphics= Lazy Dev

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