Malcador Posted June 16 Author Share Posted June 16 https://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/en/home/das_eda/aktuell/dossiers/konferenz-zum-frieden-ukraine/Summit-on-Peace-in-ukraine-joint-communique-on-a-peace-framework.html Very productive summit. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted June 16 Share Posted June 16 I particularly like how the list of "countries" supporting the proposal includes the EU, 4 times. Probably the only theoretically Russia leaning country to turn up that supported it was Serbia, the others (Brazil, KSA, India etc) did not. Almost exactly as expected in every respect really, though Ukraine's energy infrastructure must be in a real mess if item #1 is them getting the ZNPP back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 8 hours ago, Zoraptor said: I particularly like how the list of "countries" supporting the proposal includes the EU, 4 times. Probably the only theoretically Russia leaning country to turn up that supported it was Serbia, the others (Brazil, KSA, India etc) did not. Almost exactly as expected in every respect really, though Ukraine's energy infrastructure must be in a real mess if item #1 is them getting the ZNPP back. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/80-countries-at-swiss-summit-agree-ukraines-territorial-integrity-required-for-peace Not really, the EU consists of 27 countries and 100 countries attended. And 78 countries signed it So the outcome definitely wasnt just an " expected " EU response. And its based on the UN view around respect for territorial integrity and sovereignty That hasnt changed and never will, you cant just invade a country and create your borders and the support for this document is more or less the same as how UN votes go around the war where Russia gets very little support but countries abstain But it wont stop the war, Putins committed to his warmongering and the invasion. Its more symbolic "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 The Swiss list includes the Council of Europe, European Commission, the European Council* and the European Parliament. Technically of course that's only the EU three times over, plus each individual country, but it's lol time anyway since the Swiss claimed they were- direct quote- "countries" who supported the communiqué. Of course population wise the combined 70 are dwarfed by those who turned up but didn't sign, let alone those who didn't turn up at all. They couldn't even get the Vatican to sign it. *yes, there is a Council of Europe (this is the one not quite the same as the EU, eg it has Norway, UK and others) and European Council for anyone wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 38 minutes ago, Zoraptor said: The Swiss list includes the Council of Europe, European Commission, the European Council* and the European Parliament. Technically of course that's only the EU three times over, plus each individual country, but it's lol time anyway since the Swiss claimed they were- direct quote- "countries" who supported the communiqué. Of course population wise the combined 70 are dwarfed by those who turned up but didn't sign, let alone those who didn't turn up at all. They couldn't even get the Vatican to sign it. *yes, there is a Council of Europe (this is the one not quite the same as the EU, eg it has Norway, UK and others) and European Council for anyone wondering. Yes but the Council of Europe, European Commission, the European Council are just 3 examples of the 78 who signed it Its easier to understand when you see the list and its definitely not mostly EU countries. There are African and South American and Asian countries "Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Benin, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cabo Verde, Canada, Chile, Comoros, Costa Rica, Côte d’Ivoire, Council of Europe, Croatia, Cyprus, Czechia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Estonia, European Commission, European Council, European Parliament, Fiji, Finland, France, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Guatemala, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Kenya, Kosovo, Latvia, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, New Zealand, North Macedonia, Norway, Palau, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Romania, Rwanda, San Marino, Sao Tomé and Principe, Serbia, Singapore, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Somalia, Spain, Suriname, Sweden, Switzerland, Timor Leste, Türkiye, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States, Uruguay" But I do find it interesting how Russia's EU " allies " that include Slovakia, Hungary and Serbia signed it I would have assumed they wouldnt have signed it? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 The only one which is in the least bit surprising, and not much considering its geographic position, is Serbia. Though they'd also be pretty surprised to find that they're now in the EU... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanisatha Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 I would really love to see the US government publicly take the position that henceforth the United States' policy on the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries will be exactly the same as their policy towards Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 17 Author Share Posted June 17 https://www.thetimes.com/uk/defence/article/why-are-arms-dealers-hiking-prices-for-ukraine-92hqdtlx2 https://archive.is/IMaDq "For some, it was a time of terrible sacrifice and loss. For others, it was a time of great opportunity" Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, kanisatha said: I would really love to see the US government publicly take the position that henceforth the United States' policy on the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries will be exactly the same as their policy towards Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. But what other countries or examples would that apply to because Im missing the point you making? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 1 minute ago, BruceVC said: But what other countries or examples would that apply to because Im missing the point you making? Israel’s unrecognised annexation of Golan, the completely unlawful invasion and annexation of the Kingdom of Hawaii, China’s annexation of the country of Tibet… I’m sure there are more, but it shows the different standards of “international law” (I.e. might makes right) 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 17 Author Share Posted June 17 Morocco and Western Sahara Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 (edited) I suppose no one is surprised that Serbian football fans have been chanting for Vladimir Putin on the streets in Germany. (Hah: Serbia is a country I always want to lose a football match; I've been to enough international matches in my life to conclude that Serbian players take the lack of sportmanship to a very ugly level, way beyond what other countries generally do. The only other football country I always want to lose is Holland, for their players' long history of completely unnecessary violence on the pitch. As for the obvious question that this raises, I haven't witnessed a match between Serbia and Holland, so I don't know.) Edited June 18 by xzar_monty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 Neither Serbia nor the Dutch are close to being the worst. Luis Suarez probably wins the title, solo, for Uruguay. 4 hours ago, BruceVC said: But what other countries or examples would that apply to because Im missing the point you making? Diego Garcia and Kosovo, obviously. There's even an ICJ ruling for Diego Garcia, plus one of those embarrassing UNGA votes where the noes are close to single digits (six). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 18 Author Share Posted June 18 7 hours ago, xzar_monty said: Serbian players take the lack of sportmanship to a very ugly level, way beyond what other countries generally do Barring Argentina, or a large chunk of CONCACAF. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 @Zoraptor, Suarez was/is villainous indeed, but he is not a collective. Some of Holland's best/worst collective efforts are the world cup final against Spain and the European cup match against Portugal; that's collective disgrace for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 1 hour ago, xzar_monty said: @Zoraptor, Suarez was/is villainous indeed, but he is not a collective. Some of Holland's best/worst collective efforts are the world cup final against Spain and the European cup match against Portugal; that's collective disgrace for you. I think the prefer to be called The Netherlands But I agree. I remember Denmarks match against them in the EC quarterfinals in 1992. Some ugly broken bones and ended careers there, courtesy of the Dutch thugs on the field. Enjoyed sending them packing even more than Germany in the final, that was just a bonus 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 10 hours ago, Zoraptor said: Neither Serbia nor the Dutch are close to being the worst. Luis Suarez probably wins the title, solo, for Uruguay. Diego Garcia and Kosovo, obviously. There's even an ICJ ruling for Diego Garcia, plus one of those embarrassing UNGA votes where the noes are close to single digits (six). Sorry Zora but no ones ever heard of Diego Garcia, I always thought it was someone's name but I looked it up and it is real. Its an island @Gorth do you agree if we have never heard of a development then it cant be counted in the list "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 4 hours ago, BruceVC said: Sorry Zora but no ones ever heard of Diego Garcia, I always thought it was someone's name but I looked it up and it is real. Its an island @Gorth do you agree if we have never heard of a development then it cant be counted in the list Technically It is part of the name of the person that was patron of the person that found the island. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanisatha Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 All true enough, but from a policy stand-point you can't do much about the past, especially the distant past. So my point is about the future, and re-establishing the original principle underlying the concept of sovereignty, which was reciprocity: your sovereignty is recognized and accepted by others only if you recognize and accept others' sovereignty. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarex Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 On 6/17/2024 at 1:30 PM, Zoraptor said: The only one which is in the least bit surprising, and not much considering its geographic position, is Serbia. Though they'd also be pretty surprised to find that they're now in the EU... Trying to play both sides. Probably got something in exchange. On the topic of football, I do not follow it and would outright ban it for a while in Serbia. It's a sport that is completely controlled by the mob, so I would not be surprised if what was said above is true. There is a reason why we are so bad at it. 1 "because they filled mommy with enough mythic power to become a demi-god" - KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted June 18 Author Share Posted June 18 7 hours ago, BruceVC said: no ones ever heard of Diego Garcia Really ? When the US was bombing Afghanistan they mentioned it a whole lot. Sort of a curious argument that only places people have heard of matter though, heh. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 On 6/18/2024 at 5:27 PM, Sarex said: On the topic of football, I do not follow it and would outright ban it for a while in Serbia. It's a sport that is completely controlled by the mob Wow, this is really interesting! Would you care to tell me a little more about it, or perhaps guide me to a good source for information? I'd really appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmp10 Posted Thursday at 06:05 PM Share Posted Thursday at 06:05 PM If FT is to be believed, the US will now redirect recent Patriot production to Ukraine. That's in addition to one more battery that is to be transferred soon. Precaution, reaction or desperation? We won't know until winter bombing campaign begins. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted Thursday at 08:22 PM Share Posted Thursday at 08:22 PM I wish reporters would sort out their phrasing since using patriot missile, patriot system (battery) and launcher as if they're interchangeable is confusing at best. (I'd suspect most patriot missile production, which is the actual subject, is already going to Ukraine. It was one of Saudi Arabia's complaints that they had to jump through hoops to buy old missiles at a 250% mark up to defend against the Houthis while Ukraine got theirs for free- or 'free' since I'm not sure whether their cost came from genuine aid or via loans. Guess from their perspective at least the Houthis have found someone else to lob their missiles at) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted Friday at 05:38 AM Share Posted Friday at 05:38 AM https://www.thedailybeast.com/kremlin-tv-drops-new-tucker-carlson-show I found this hilarious, only in Russia would you find the state controlled propaganda machinery creating a " Tucker Carlon show " without Carlson being part of it "It’s all fake obviously, like most stories in American news media. Of course I have no partnership with Russia. The first I'd heard anything about this was (this) morning,” he said. The CEO of Tucker Carlson Network, Neil Patel, said no deals had been done with Russia. " "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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