Zoraptor Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 All three should be charged. Putin should not be charged with what he is though, the only reason he faces that (and it went straight to an arrest warrant forgoing the usual probe) is because the west doesn't like him, and he can't face charges of Pillage or Waging Aggressive War because if he did Blair and Trump would be there too. Which they too should be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 19 hours ago, Zoraptor said: For what it matters- basically nothing, since it's non binding- the UNGA has voted 153-10 for an immediate ceasefire. Last ceasefire vote in the UNGA back in October was 121-14 so a lot of abstentions flipped to yes including some minor pillars of the Rules Based Order. 12000 dead civilians in 9 weeks is still all good with most of the most vocal proponents; US, UK, Germany all voted no or abstained. To put it in perspective the vote for Russia to withdraw from Ukraine was 141-5. Have some outrage at Canada's vote here, apparently they abandoned Israel in her our of need or some dramatic bull****. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67732895 Have to think if they had just been Palestinian civilians, no one would have cared. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 (edited) Majority of civilian deaths on 7 october were due to IDF as well basically shooting anything that moves with attack helicopters Edited December 16, 2023 by HoonDing The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/3/can-south-africas-icj-case-against-israel-stop-war-in-gaza Im not sure if everyone is aware that SA is accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza and the case is being heard next week at the ICJ What does everyone think the outcome will be? I doubt the ICJ will find Israel guilty of genocide because genocide has a specific definition But lets see how things unfold "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 hours ago, BruceVC said: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/3/can-south-africas-icj-case-against-israel-stop-war-in-gaza Im not sure if everyone is aware that SA is accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza and the case is being heard next week at the ICJ What does everyone think the outcome will be? I doubt the ICJ will find Israel guilty of genocide because genocide has a specific definition But lets see how things unfold I checked a few of the definitions of genocide. I would say, it fits very well. Even if it didn't, they could still put them on the international court for uncountable war crimes and crimes against humanity. The stuff people used to get hung for, when losing a war. edit: the official Oxford dictionary looks like behind a paywall, so googles summary will have to do... /ˈdʒenəsaɪd/ /ˈdʒenəsaɪd/ [uncountable, countable] the murder of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group, with the aim of destroying that nation or group. You could argue Israel is now aiming for eliminating the Palestinian presence in Gaza completely and forcing them off the land (sending them to whichever country will take them and kill them if there are no takers) “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 52 minutes ago, Gorth said: I checked a few of the definitions of genocide. I would say, it fits very well. Even if it didn't, they could still put them on the international court for uncountable war crimes and crimes against humanity. The stuff people used to get hung for, when losing a war. edit: the official Oxford dictionary looks like behind a paywall, so googles summary will have to do... /ˈdʒenəsaɪd/ /ˈdʒenəsaɪd/ [uncountable, countable] the murder of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group, with the aim of destroying that nation or group. You could argue Israel is now aiming for eliminating the Palestinian presence in Gaza completely and forcing them off the land (sending them to whichever country will take them and kill them if there are no takers) The ICJ will decide if its genocide based on the actual evidence presented. I am not convinced and I have never heard of cases of genocide where people are told to leave an area before being attacked or aid is provided? But I do agree Israel can be charged with War Crimes, article 8 at the ICC, but so can Hamas. Do you know taking of hostages is a war crime? Here is list of what constitutes war crimes and both Israel and Hamas are guilty of certain things. But genocide is part of article 6 and the charge Israel is facing is genocide War crimes Article 8 defines war crimes depending on whether an armed conflict is either international (which generally means it is fought between states) or non-international (which generally means that it is fought between non-state actors, such as rebel groups, or between a state and such non-state actors). In total there are 74 war crimes listed in article 8.[101] The most serious crimes constitute either grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, which only apply to international conflicts,[101] and serious violations of article 3 common to the Geneva Conventions of 1949, which apply to non-international conflicts.[65]: article 8(2)(c) Eleven crimes constitute grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and apply only to international armed conflicts:[101] Willful killing Torture Inhumane treatment Biological experiments Willfully causing great suffering Destruction and appropriation of property Compelling service in hostile forces Denying a fair trial Unlawful deportation and transfer Unlawful confinement Taking hostages "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 The definition of genocide was rewritten/ clarified/ changed fairly recently to make it far more easy to apply. With the changes it should definitely apply to Israel's treatment of Palestinians. Whether it does or the ICJ has a Karim Khan equivalent to run interference is an open question. (For anyone wondering ICJ jurisdiction applies to countries so RSA is the accuser and Israel the defendant in this case; ICC jurisdiction applies to individuals. Basically) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 (edited) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67888794 Here is a very informative link about Israel's future plans for Gaza once Hamas is gone. It dismisses some of the Israeli right wing extremist views where the Palestinians will have to leave Gaza which was always an egregious idea and not realistic. The future of Gaza is a "four corner " plan To quote "Under Mr Gallant's now "four corner" plan, Israel would retain overall security control of Gaza. A multi-national force would take charge of rebuilding the territory after the widespread destruction caused by Israeli bombing. Neighbouring Egypt would also have an unspecified role to play under the plan. But the document adds that Palestinians would be responsible for running the territory " "Talk of the "day after" in Gaza has led to deep disagreement in Israel. Some far right-wing members of Mr Netanyahu's government have said that Palestinian citizens should be encouraged to leave Gaza for exile, with the reestablishment of Jewish settlements in the territory - controversial proposals that have been rejected as "extremist" and "unworkable" by other countries in the region and by some of Israel's allies. " Edited January 5 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 10 minutes ago, BruceVC said: A multi-national force would take charge of rebuilding the territory after the widespread destruction caused by Israeli bombing. And presumably pay for it, too. Convenient. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 16 minutes ago, Malcador said: And presumably pay for it, too. Convenient. I agree, the cost is going to be huge. That is a contentious reality but someone has to help with the reconstruction costs of Gaza. I imagine it will the US, Israel, several Western countries and some of the ME countries but Gaza has be rebuilt for the Palestinians to live there again "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 The international community should seize Israeli assets to fund the reconstruction 3 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melkathi Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 I absolutely support that motion. 1 Unobtrusively informing you about my new ebook (which you should feel free to read and shower with praise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 "The international community should seize Israeli assets to fund the reconstruction" That would amount to a second holocaust. 1 The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 6 Author Share Posted January 6 Here is an interesting video from Bill Maher about the conflict, as usual with him I agree with some things he says and disagree with others But he makes some good points about the history of this conflict and other historical examples of land being taken and how this gets handled in the interests of peace. Its only 8 minutes and I think @Gorth @Gfted1 @Zoraptor@Malcador would appreciate it? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 It's a pretty one sided affair isn't it. The only thing he said I agree with, is that the peace itself would have been worth infinitely more than the struggle, it takes two to tango though. 1 Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuhhii Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) most likely they will get away with colonizing gaza just like before only question is will the backlash be bigger or smaller when they colonize next region Edited January 6 by uuuhhii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 7 Author Share Posted January 7 Here is an interesting update about the military progress Israel has made and how the war will be changing, I cant provide links but it comes from an official X\Twitter Israeli source. Hopefully this signals the beginning of the end of the military invasion and we can look at the next phase which is rebuilding of Gaza and who manages Gaza The IDF announced this evening the disbandment of all 12 Hamas battalions in the northern Gaza Strip - half of Hamas' military strength in Gaza. And yet, the disbanding of the battalions does not mean that all the terrorists in the area have been eliminated or that all the underground tunnels in it have been destroyed. About 8,000 terrorists were eliminated in the area out of about 14,000. That is, most of the military force in the region >> 2/ There is still fighting in this area. But the IDF is switching to a different method of operation there. The forces no longer permanently hold the entire area, but have left most of the area, and are focusing on the area close to Israel. In the rest of the area - targeted raids are carried out on compounds, where more terrorists are eliminated, military personnel and intelligence are seized, and tunnels are destroyed. And it will take a long time >> 3/ And now the IDF is left with this task - the dismantling of 12 more Hamas battalions, in the center of the Gaza Strip (4), in Khan Yunis (4) and in Rafah (4). A picture of the situation regarding the central and southern battalions: 2 battalions - North Khan Yunis and East Khan Yunis (marked in white) - the IDF is close to disbanding them >> 4/ In 3 more battalions - West Khan Yunis, South Khan Yunis and Borij (marked in blue) - the fighting is still going on and there are many IDF forces fighting during these hours as well. In 2 battalions - Nusirat and Ma'azi (marked in green) - the IDF is on the outskirts of the area according to reports and is probably expected to operate there soon as well >> 5/ With the rest of the battalions, and especially the that are in Rafah - it does not seem that the IDF will soon operate in a broad ground manner, but the airstrikes there continue all the time and the method of operation is different. "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 As many of us know on Thursday South Africa is taking a case of genocide to the ICJ and I just listened to an interview with a professor of international law called Andre Thomashausen who is based in SA. He is German and normally I disagree with his legal assessments but he makes sense in this case He says the case is meritless and he explains legally why, its only 16 minutes long and I encourage those interested in the allegation that Israel has committed genocide to listen to it. It could change your opinion on this allegation https://omny.fm/shows/powertalk-archive/a-101-on-the-international-court-of-justice-south "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuhhii Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 it is genocide or at least massacre but that hardly been new meanwhile the massacre may expand to much less soft target than gaza that will not end well for anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 7 hours ago, uuuhhii said: it is genocide or at least massacre but that hardly been new meanwhile the massacre may expand to much less soft target than gaza that will not end well for anyone None of us are qualified lawyers and none of us have much legal experience with how the ICJ defines genocide and thats what this case is about, the legal definition and classification of genocide Of course we all entitled to our own opinions but we not entitled to our own facts So Im going to wait for the ruling from the ICJ, they the experts and knowledgeable on these matters "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 I have had the TV on in the background and the SA ICJ lawyers have been on , some compelling comments around what I understand I am interested in what Israel says tomorrow "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-781767 Sort of boiler plate response to Israel catching any criticism, really. I do like the idea that Israel's fighting for the whole world they've been trying. Didn't really sell for Ukraine, doubt it's going to work here. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melkathi Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 The South Africa presentation was so good, it will probably be taught at universities in the future. The Israel presentation had one point of merit, the attempt to show that South Africa did not give Israel enough opportunity to respond, therefore the court couldn't be invoked yet. The court could dismiss on that if they really wanted to, but they must know that it will destroy the institution if they do, as countries outside the west will completely lose all faith in the system, worse than the prospect of Sting ever losing his faith in you. Unobtrusively informing you about my new ebook (which you should feel free to read and shower with praise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 (edited) 12 hours ago, melkathi said: The South Africa presentation was so good, it will probably be taught at universities in the future. The Israel presentation had one point of merit, the attempt to show that South Africa did not give Israel enough opportunity to respond, therefore the court couldn't be invoked yet. The court could dismiss on that if they really wanted to, but they must know that it will destroy the institution if they do, as countries outside the west will completely lose all faith in the system, worse than the prospect of Sting ever losing his faith in you. But the ICJ has 9 judges out of 15 that arent from Western countries, the ruling will be based on the evidence. It wont be because of " evil, Western Capitalist countries control the ICJ " . And its a UN institution so its not like its going anywhere whatever the final ruling Edited January 15 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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