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Ukraine Conflict - The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his


Malcador

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4 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.technology.org/2023/04/18/americans-surprised-by-what-they-saw-inside-the-t-90a-tank-photo/

 

@Gfted1 you will appreciate this with your interest in military hardware 

Some guy saying enemy's equipment is trash, truly a shock.  Surprised they even took the tank back to the US at all

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13 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Some guy saying enemy's equipment is trash, truly a shock.  Surprised they even took the tank back to the US at all

Sure but he is also talking about basic maintenance which should be done?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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7 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

I wonder if China is reluctant because they dont want their gear getting smoked or captured for study. 🤔 

Non issue for China, since they wouldn't be sending/ selling their advanced stuff anyway. Far more significant issue for the west who have sent some advanced stuff among the older junkers that makes up most of the aid, and will probably be peeved about Iranian knock offs of Javelins and NLAWs turning up at some point much like they were a bit grumpy about Toophans (ie cloned TOWs) and cloned drones.

Should also be noted that while China has been saying they won't sell weapons to Russia, to the west, they've been publicly saying the exact opposite to the Russians- with the sure knowledge that some people in the west can speak Chinese/ Russian. Given the Chinese penchant for trolling they're probably not selling anything to Russia, but selling them to the D/LPR under the spirit of US arms sales to that internationally recognised integral part of China, Taiwan.

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Lol yeah, didnt someone post a link in one of the earlier iterations about truckloads of US weapons and supplies already being sold off?

But Im just generally interested in seeing some specs or performance of Chinese equipment. Everyones invincible right up until they get to a battlefield. I still cant believe how badly Russia is performing.

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I'd kind of presume that most of the non bulk advanced stuff (ie not ATGMs) has... countermeasures against being simply sold off- that is likely part of what the NATO special forces mentioned in the leaks are tasked with. Not like there's a huge amount of advanced equipment anyway, and much of the newish stuff is like the Caesar- just a gun on a truck with a guidance system the French were selling to the Russians a couple of years ago, so not much to learn from.

Even if China started supplying stuff (and frankly, they almost certainly are already, to an extent) it won't be J-20s or Type 99+s or anything else remotely 'interesting'. Old ex Soviet knock offs with plausible deniability and consumables like ammo and rockets, or things they can pass off as being supplied by DPRK/ Iran etc only, most likely.

Depends a lot on Taiwan and general western relations though, but even if they get sufficiently annoyed there they still won't be supplying the good stuff, just more openly supplying old systems. End of the day there's nothing in something like a Type 80 tank anyone would be particularly interested in, 30 odd years later. If you were as the US you could, well, just buy a Pakistani or Sudanese one, after all.

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https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3367924/biden-administration-announces-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine/

Latest  US military aid for Ukraine, to quote 

  • Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS);
  • 155mm and 105mm artillery rounds;
  • Tube-Launched, Optically-Tracked, Wire-Guided (TOW) missiles;
  • AT-4 anti-armor weapon systems;
  • Anti-tank mines;
  • Demolition munitions for obstacle clearing;
  • Over 9 million rounds of small arms ammunition; 
  • Four logistics support vehicles;
  • Precision aerial munitions; 
  • Testing and diagnostic equipment to support vehicle maintenance and repair;
  • Port and harbor security equipment;
  • Spare parts and other field equipment.

 

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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This is probably one of the most cogent and well explained economic summaries of the  current state of the  Russian economy and the strength of the Ruble and why its been impacted and influenced by Russian sanctions. Its 30 minutes long but well worth it 

@Gorth @Mamoulian War you will appreciate it 

 

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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@xzar_monty

Think of the Edward Snowden case: the leak contained an awful lot of stuff that was very inconvenient for the NSA, and the press did not comply to any requests to keep it away from public view, so the description of the media as good doggies doesn't really hold, at least not in all cases.

I applaud the mainstream media for not complying with the feds and releasing that information back then. I wish the mainstream media still had integrity and the cojones to do that today. Thank God there are still independent journalists out in the world that still do their jobs. 

On the subject of Edward Snowden, the man is a hero in my eyes. I'm pro whistleblower. I'm thankful there are people out there exposing the crimes that people in power are committing abroad and/or to their own constituents. The US government likes to portray themselves as a beacon of fairness, like we're so evolved beyond the barbaric practices of the tyrants of yesteryear. Hilarious. The feds condemn other nations for the mistreatment of journalists while they bully and intimidate our own and they've held Julian Assange for over 4 years without a conviction, heck, he hasn't even been formally charged with anything.

The US government conducts imperialist operations around the globe assassinating people, staging coups, installing puppet governments, all the same stuff the Romans did 2000 years ago. They do it under the guise of "spreading democracy" and in some cases that may actually be true, but other times it's not.

All of this is nothing new. This is all standard operating procedure for sociopaths in power. I'm thankful there are people out there around the globe willing to risk their livelihoods and in some cases their very lives  to wipe away the holier than thou veneer.

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:lol: 

Well at least with that announcement, won't have to hear Melnyk crying.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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2 hours ago, Keyrock said:

@xzar_monty

 

I applaud the mainstream media for not complying with the feds and releasing that information back then. I wish the mainstream media still had integrity and the cojones to do that today. Thank God there are still independent journalists out in the world that still do their jobs. 

On the subject of Edward Snowden, the man is a hero in my eyes. I'm pro whistleblower. I'm thankful there are people out there exposing the crimes that people in power are committing abroad and/or to their own constituents. The US government likes to portray themselves as a beacon of fairness, like we're so evolved beyond the barbaric practices of the tyrants of yesteryear. Hilarious. The feds condemn other nations for the mistreatment of journalists while they bully and intimidate our own and they've held Julian Assange for over 4 years without a conviction, heck, he hasn't even been formally charged with anything.

The US government conducts imperialist operations around the globe assassinating people, staging coups, installing puppet governments, all the same stuff the Romans did 2000 years ago. They do it under the guise of "spreading democracy" and in some cases that may actually be true, but other times it's not.

All of this is nothing new. This is all standard operating procedure for sociopaths in power. I'm thankful there are people out there around the globe willing to risk their livelihoods and in some cases their very lives  to wipe away the holier than thou veneer.

Wow, lots of very subjective things you are stating and also several inaccurate things

Just one example, the US is not holding Assange. He has never been captive in the US. He is currently imprisoned in the UK fighting extradition to the US and then he will  face a criminal trial 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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1 minute ago, BruceVC said:

Just one example, the US is not holding Assange. He has never been captive in the US. He is currently imprisoned in the UK fighting extradition to the US and then he will  face a criminal trial 

 

He's held in the UK on behest of the US. The US may not physically be holding him, but, for all intents and purposes, the US is holding him.

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"Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks

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11 minutes ago, Keyrock said:

He's held in the UK on behest of the US. The US may not physically be holding him, but, for all intents and purposes, the US is holding him.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wikileaks-assange-timeline-idUSKBN29B00I

Here is a sequence of the timelines around Assange's current incarceration, he is currently imprisoned because he skipped his bail conditions around being extradited to Sweden back in 2012. He was kicked out the Ecuadorian embassy in April 11, 2019 and then UK law jailed him for 50 weeks for skipping  the Swedish rape  case. Thats UK law and nothing to do with the US

Then on the June 11, 2019 the US formally applied to have him extradited but he is fighting the extradiation and he is being held because he has demonstrated he is a flight risk after how avoided the Swedish prosecution

The timelines are clear in the link I provided. Assange wouldnt be in this  situation if he had just gone to Sweden to face the rape charges

And I assume you dont consider Sweden a proxy of the US so he would have got fair trial?

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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3 hours ago, Malcador said:

 

:lol: 

Well at least with that announcement, won't have to hear Melnyk crying.

Politics moving to twitter.
For context: Stoltenberg made a far reaching comment that all NATO members have agreed to admit Ukraine.

For a second it gave the impression that something more than the 2008 "timeline: never" promise was on offer. 

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Stoltenberg's done that at least twice in the last week or so and he's been told no agreement has been made by multiple countries, including the US. May have gone rogue, more likely some sort of good cop/ bad copesque schtick.

Annual debunking of Bruce's entirely inaccurate analysis of Assange Follows:

Reminder that Julian Assange was told that he was fine to leave Sweden and would not be facing charges. Then a new prosecutor reinstated them, leaked massive amounts of information including victim statements, for which there were no prosecutions. Reminder that Assange was sentenced to 50 weeks by Britain, in 2019. So he's now in his 3rd year of extra detention explicitly due to the US charges. Oh yes, and because Bruce is big on The International Law or only when it suits him? he's being held under Arbitrary Detention per the UN since... 2015.

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https://tvpworld.com/69347060/documents-show-kremlin-seeks-to-build-antiwar-coalition-in-germany-report

@Lex

More evidence of Russian interference and influence  in German political parties, both far left and and far right 

Edited by BruceVC
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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Don't really need such documents to realize this. Just listen to the garbage those politicians tell and you know they are paid by Moscow. Worst part about it is that it works. There's crapton of idiots who are falling for this.

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8 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Stoltenberg's done that at least twice in the last week or so and he's been told no agreement has been made by multiple countries, including the US. May have gone rogue, more likely some sort of good cop/ bad copesque schtick.

Annual debunking of Bruce's entirely inaccurate analysis of Assange Follows:

Reminder that Julian Assange was told that he was fine to leave Sweden and would not be facing charges. Then a new prosecutor reinstated them, leaked massive amounts of information including victim statements, for which there were no prosecutions. Reminder that Assange was sentenced to 50 weeks by Britain, in 2019. So he's now in his 3rd year of extra detention explicitly due to the US charges. Oh yes, and because Bruce is big on The International Law or only when it suits him? he's being held under Arbitrary Detention per the UN since... 2015.

But you haven't answered my fundamental question that I have been asking for years

Why didnt Assange go to Sweden to face the rape charges? He skipped bail on these charges and ended up in the Ecuadorian embassy. The US  didnt force him to do this, he made a choice and committed a criminal act 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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About the Stoltenberg’s hint at Ukraine’s future in NATO. I am 100% sure, I have read this morning some articles claiming that Hungarian media confirmed the Hungarian Yes despite Orban’s “fake” outrage. Unfortunatelly I am not able to find the links anymore, so take this as a rumour for now.

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Erdogans price may end up being steep though. It would require at least a few billion dollars on his Gibraltar and New Jersey bank accounts to buy Ukrainian membership 😝

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On 4/21/2023 at 3:20 PM, Keyrock said:

On the subject of Edward Snowden, the man is a hero in my eyes. I'm pro whistleblower.

Strictly on the subject of Snowden and whistleblowers: I find it curious that Obama[*] got and still gets such good press. Of all the US presidents, he is by far the most aggressive and punitive when it comes to whistleblowers. Also, he made a plea for Snowden to return to the US so that he could receive a "fair trial", even though he must have known that as a person suspected of treason, Snowden was not going to have any right for a "fair trial", i.e. Obama was lying.

But this is how it goes with facts vs. general perception. It's endlessly fascinating.

 

[*] How on earth he was awarded the Nobel Peace Price is beyond me.

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3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Strictly on the subject of Snowden and whistleblowers: I find it curious that Obama[*] got and still gets such good press. Of all the US presidents, he is by far the most aggressive and punitive when it comes to whistleblowers. Also, he made a plea for Snowden to return to the US so that he could receive a "fair trial", even though he must have known that as a person suspected of treason, Snowden was not going to have any right for a "fair trial", i.e. Obama was lying.

But this is how it goes with facts vs. general perception. It's endlessly fascinating.

 

[*] How on earth he was awarded the Nobel Peace Price is beyond me.

Obama is charismatic and a terrific public speaker, plus his PR game is on mother****ing point. Those factors go a long way toward creating an illusion of a warm, gregarious, just man, when in reality his regime committed their fair share of atrocities. I think he ramped-up drone bombings more than anybody ever and the absolutely heinous stuff the US has been helping to do in Yemen started under Obama. The coup in Ukraine that led to Zelenskyy gaining power, and has had no small part in leading to the subject of this thread, that was an Obama regime project too.

I have no doubt that had Snowden taken Obama up on his plea he would have been subject to a kangaroo court. I'm honestly surprised that he hasn't had an "unfortunate accident" yet.

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On 4/19/2023 at 6:04 PM, Gfted1 said:

 I still cant believe how badly Russia is performing.

Why?  I think it's becoming clear at this point (with the benefit of hindsight).  The numbers demonstrated everything even before the invasion.  Russia's economy was roughly the size of Italy's and they simply don't have the funds to muster a truly capable and mature military.  Add a significant lack of reserves (except for old soviet equipment) to the mix and this should have been fairly easy to assess from the get-go.  I do think the biggest variable to Russia's performance though was underestimating the Ukranians ability to fight.  I still think Russia will at least win control of the Donbas due to the sheer manpower advantage they have but there was certainly lots of writing on the wall beforehand about the whole affair.

 

If you thought Russia had a superior military because Russian bear man big and strong and brutally effective in war well, you fell into the exact same trap the Russian chauvanits did.

China right now is only supplying very basic equipment to the Russians like shoes and bags, it is not in China's geopolitical interests to fully support Russia's cause and they are seeking a diplomatic solution to the war, which would really boost their international prestige tenfold were they able to  negotiate.

 

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58 minutes ago, Keyrock said:

Obama is charismatic and a terrific public speaker, plus his PR game is on mother****ing point. Those factors go a long way toward creating an illusion of a warm, gregarious, just man, when in reality his regime committed their fair share of atrocities. I think he ramped-up drone bombings more than anybody ever and the absolutely heinous stuff the US has been helping to do in Yemen started under Obama. The coup in Ukraine that led to Zelenskyy gaining power, and has had no small part in leading to the subject of this thread, that was an Obama regime project too.

I have no doubt that had Snowden taken Obama up on his plea he would have been subject to a kangaroo court. I'm honestly surprised that he hasn't had an "unfortunate accident" yet.

You mean the heinous stuff the Iranians have been doing in Yemen, and the coup in Ukraine that brought Zelenskyy's predecessor to power.

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1 hour ago, Keyrock said:

Those factors go a long way toward creating an illusion of a warm, gregarious, just man, when in reality his regime committed their fair share of atrocities.

Slightly off topic, for which apologies, but who do you think was the most recent genuinely good American president? (And why, perhaps.)

The reason I ask is that some kind of loathing for the government tends to be so common among Americans, and I often wonder whether they regard their system of government as inherently effed or whether they just think they've had particularly bad rulers in the recent past. Either way it is, I think it's extremely unfortunate, particularly because so many Americans seem to be totally uninterested in the whole political process or regard it as not worth participating in.

In my view, this is in sharp contrast with the fact that so many Americans also think that it's the greatest country in the world and it generally has nothing whatsoever to learn from any other country anywhere. And these two things fit together rather badly, in my view.

I tend to be both sceptical and critical towards my own government, but as a rule, I think the system actually works quite well: I am extremely pleased with everything that I have received with the taxes that I've paid (everything from superb education to excellent health care and so on), and while "the system" certainly isn't perfect, I honestly think it's at least OK and definitely a lot better than in most countries in the world. Size, of course, is a factor, which I certainly am aware of.

Anyway, I would love it if Americans were more interested in their system, cared more about refining it and didn't constantly comment so disparagingly upon it. But it is also possible that they are right in thinking that it's all beyond saving now -- and if that is the case, it's a sorry state indeed.

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56 minutes ago, ComradeYellow said:

Why?

Russia had plenty of everything before the start of the war. Imo, what we are witnessing is literally a failure of every other conceivable metric: planning, predeployment, equipment readiness, leadership capability, troop training and morale, equipment that doesnt perform to expectations, execution of objectives, etc... Now theyve suffered brain drain and crushing technological sanctions, so I dont see any way theyre a conventional force threat again in the next decade or longer.

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