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Ukraine Conflict - The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his


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6 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

Ofcourse he would, he's French, surrendering is all those ****ers are good for

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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3 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

well the point is that you don't want your enemy to know those data either, thats why they are confidential during war.

You don't, but you also really don't want your own side knowing either.

If Zelensky says 7:1 losses in Ukraine's favour* and that isn't the case then you have two issues. Firstly, it shows he lied about that so trust is lost and he's less likely to be believed in other things which may be true. And secondly if the ratio is 7:1 Ukraine is winning since Russia will run out of troops first- if it's closer to 1:1 then Ukraine is losing, since they'll run out of troops first. That's bad for morale, and you end up with people who don't want to fight because there's no point dying for an inevitably losing cause. Not necessarily a massive number and those people clearly exist to an extent already anyway, but it also doesn't have to be a massive increase or absolute number to have a significant effect in terms of numbers of surrenders or drop in combat effectiveness. That also drags down the effectiveness of those who are willing to fight. A collapse in morale is far more of a threat to Ukraine than outright military defeat.

End of the day the Russians/ Ukrainians will probably have a decent idea of opposition losses already, anyway, albeit a bit too positive for their own side.

*7:1 can be 'true' if you go by raw reports. The trouble with raw reports is that everyone is John Rambo when it comes to raw reports and massively overstates their own effectiveness.

Edited by Zoraptor
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4 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

well the point is that you don't want your enemy to know those data either, thats why they are confidential during war. I mean I am all for open government but I can see why at this point its not reasonable to expect such imformation to be shared. Its not like it contains 'truth' about biological weapons facittilies in Ukraine or some such nonsense

Yep, but it is useful for us spectating, and just in theory, as I said.  Although, if the leaks are just an aggregate sum or WIA/KIA, would that be useful to the Russians ? If it were by unit and/or location, I could see that.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Not sure at all that Swedes should be making derogatory comments about how other nationalities maintain morally acceptable behaviour during wartime...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_iron-ore_industry_during_World_War_II

By that very definition, you can go whatabout crazy. US invading the Middle East, Blackwaters actions and so on. My favourite is a video from an US attack helicopter painting civilians from a couple of clicks away.

The ****er is trying to deal with the CCP, **** him, the least I can do is meme about them. Atleast we didn't try and encourage the Allies to negotiate peace with the Nazis.

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Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

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6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I agree, from what I have seen its nothing that we dont already know or has been raised from one source or another. Also what difference does it make if the Ukrainians have lost more people  than they are open about, why would that change anything? They the ones fighting against an invasion

Information is as good as ammunition and food in a war... if (big if) Ukraine downplayed their losses considerably, it may negatively impact the morale of the defenders when revealed to be misleading. Deflated numbers may also hide, that they struggle to launch the much advertised counter offensive in any meaningful manner. Something Russia would appreciate knowing, as that could definitely affect their planning (such as it is) and strategy for conclusion of the war, which needs a new objective now that the original operation didn't quite meet its targets and is very unlikely to.

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Continued from old thread:

 

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Once again, the coveted author tag is mine.

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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7 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

The trouble with raw reports is that everyone is John Rambo when it comes to raw reports and massively overstates their own effectiveness.

Just as a side note, I wonder whether this well-known error / problem is in fact somewhat necessary or at least positive, from the point of view of morale. And we know that loss of morale is pretty much the worst enemy you can have in war.

@Gorth, it would indeed be interesting to know what Russia's current aim really is, as the original target is pretty much lost and Ukrainian hatred for Russians[*] is guaranteed for generations upon generations. Personally, I doubt they even have a specified aim, they're sort of improvising because they're unable to stop.

 

[*] Most of Russia's neighbors either fear or hate Russia, or both. It's a sad indictment indeed.

Edited by xzar_monty
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7 hours ago, Azdeus said:

My favourite is a video from an US attack helicopter painting civilians from a couple of clicks away.

Reminds me of that old video, where the Apache gunner was really hot to shoot at some people and multiple times requested to be allowed to fire. They transformed those people into mist. Afterwards it turned out that they annihilated a bunch of civilians and journalists. Who knows how often such stuff happened and we never heard about it.

Edited by Lexx
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8 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Not sure at all that Swedes should be making derogatory comments about how other nationalities maintain morally acceptable behaviour during wartime...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_iron-ore_industry_during_World_War_II

Talking about iron ore production for the Nazi war engine from the Nordic countries, I watched a movie called Narvik about the same thing happening in Norway. Its a really good movie

https://www.whattowatch.com/features/is-narvik-a-true-story-the-real-details-behind-the-netflix-world-war-two-drama

@Azdeus @Pidesco

Maybe this is why Sweden is becoming  a Neo-Nazi country, historical ties to WW2?

 

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Funniest thing about Norway in WW2 was how close it came to them being a co-belligerent on the Axis side- literally the few days difference between the Allied invasion plan and the German one. Strangely enough that Allied invasion plan of a neutral country... isn't widely publicised.

Indeed, if certified military genius Winston Spencer Churchill had been in charge 6 months earlier he'd have had the UK fighting Germany, Italy, the USSR and Norway simultaneously by June 1940. Potentially France too, and they'd been his ally a week prior. Thank god for Chamberlain, and you won't see that thought expressed very often.

Winnie sure had some good speeches though.

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17 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Goodness gracious me what on earth are you talking about?

Dont you know about the success of the  Neo-Nazi political party in Sweden?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/16/sweden-election-far-right-democrats/

 

They dont support illegal immigration, they clearly Neo-Nazi ;)

 

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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5 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Dont you know about the success of the  Neo-Nazi political party in Sweden?

The SD has some neo-fascist past, this much cannot be denied. It's also on the right. To conclude from this that it's a Neo-Nazi party is precisely the kind of thing that tends to make internet discussions both abrasive and worthless. I think it would be a good idea to either become better informed or less extreme [sic] in how your phrase yourself.

And no, I have no sympathy for the SD at all.

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2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Just as a side note, I wonder whether this well-known error / problem is in fact somewhat necessary or at least positive, from the point of view of morale. And we know that loss of morale is pretty much the worst enemy you can have in war.

@Gorth, it would indeed be interesting to know what Russia's current aim really is, as the original target is pretty much lost and Ukrainian hatred for Russians[*] is guaranteed for generations upon generations. Personally, I doubt they even have a specified aim, they're sort of improvising because they're unable to stop.

 

[*] Most of Russia's neighbors either fear or hate Russia, or both. It's a sad indictment indeed.

Oh, they still do pursue their goal of denacification. Russian state press has published article on their hoals recently, and it puts Mein Kampf to shame… They plan to “cleanse” the hatred out of “people formerly known as Ukrainians”…

 

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24 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

The SD has some neo-fascist past, this much cannot be denied. It's also on the right. To conclude from this that it's a Neo-Nazi party is precisely the kind of thing that tends to make internet discussions both abrasive and worthless. I think it would be a good idea to either become better informed or less extreme [sic] in how your phrase yourself.

And no, I have no sympathy for the SD at all.

Sorry I realize my point was lost in translation 

I dont think Sweden is becoming a Neo-Nazi country and I dont think the US or any Western country is becoming a Neo-Nazi country . But there are people in the media and general commentators who define the success of the SD party in Sweden as " Sweden is becoming Neo-Nazi " when in fact most  people in Sweden voted for them because they not happy with current immigration  policies and the increased crime and gang violence linked directly to immigration

And my post was related to a previous discussion we had where its become normal to say " look its Neo-Nazi " when often thats not the reason for an event  or political development 

Here is another example of media hyperbole with the headline " How Sweden Became a Thriving Base of neo-Nazi Ideology"...yes there are Neo-Nazi in Sweden like every EU country but its not "thriving base "  IMO

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2017-12-30/ty-article-magazine/.premium/how-sweden-became-a-thriving-base-of-neo-nazi-ideology/0000017f-f90d-d47e-a37f-f93ddfb50000

 

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Mamoulian War said:

Oh, they still do pursue their goal of denacification. Russian state press has published article on their hoals recently, and it puts Mein Kampf to shame… They plan to “cleanse” the hatred out of “people formerly known as Ukrainians”…

The Twitter link you posted tallies perfectly with some of the points that the historian Timothy Snyder made in the link I recently posted. Ukraine is a huge threat to Russia because it is in the process of demonstrating that a former Soviet state is capable of developing into something of a democracy and getting closer to other European nations. This is intolerable for Russian rule, because it cannot allow its citizens to dream of a "better world", so to speak. In Russia, all elections are just a show[*], and this is why Trump was such a gift from heaven for Russia: the whole Trumpian enterprise was to cast doubt on the democratic process, and nothing could have pleased the Russian rulers more: the more discord there is within democracies, the better it is for Russia, because it allows them to claim with at least some justification that other countries aren't any better than Russia.

 

[*] An academic who studies Russia said recently that all talk of democracy, human rights, environmental concern etc. are, in Russia, just empty talk to such an extent that most Russians are genuinely unable to believe that things like this can have any substance anywhere else in the world, either. (It's the old chestnut about liars being unable to trust anyone else.)

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https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/south-koreas-yoon-opens-door-possible-military-aid-ukraine-2023-04-19/

SK is more than likely going to start providing military aid to Ukraine, now Im not  a conspiracy theorist but one of the " leaks " was about the mild  criticism the US had towards SK not providing military aid

And now they going  to when the " leaks" went public ...makes you think how the leaks actually could be helping the Ukraine war effort 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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5 hours ago, Lexx said:

Reminds me of that old video, where the Apache gunner was really hot to shoot at some people and multiple times requested to be allowed to fire. They transformed those people into mist. Afterwards it turned out that they annihilated a bunch of civilians and journalists. Who knows how often such stuff happened and we never heard about it.

I think we're thinking about the very same video actually. Fires the autocannon on the people, and then a couple of rounds into the car aswell.

4 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

The SD has some neo-fascist past, this much cannot be denied. It's also on the right. To conclude from this that it's a Neo-Nazi party is precisely the kind of thing that tends to make internet discussions both abrasive and worthless. I think it would be a good idea to either become better informed or less extreme [sic] in how your phrase yourself.

And no, I have no sympathy for the SD at all.

They're a neo nazi party for things such as this;

ByswmDoIMAAEs53.jpg

And many, many, many, many, many other similar reasons.

Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

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32 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

They're a neo nazi party for things such as this;

The Nordic Resistance Movement and Nordic Strength are neo-Nazi parties / groups, whereas the SD are not, despite plenty of shady things in their past (and present). I don't think there's much to argue about in here.

Edited by xzar_monty
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https://apnews.com/article/china-taiwan-weapons-germany-ukraine-2a51d2c64c12fca75683d20fbafba475

This is a few days old but its the " official " view from China that they wont provide lethal aid to Russia

Im not sure if it can be trusted but it does give more credibility to China wanting to be involved in finding a peaceful solution 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Just now, Gfted1 said:

I wonder if China is reluctant because they dont want their gear getting smoked or captured for study. 🤔 

I dont believe China wants increased tension with the US\West for several reasons and they want to focus on there own geopolitical ambitions. If they supplied military aid to Russia they would only increase Western criticism towards them

Also I think they were hoping for a quick Russian victory but the numerous failures of the Russian military strategy has ended this. I believe they want to stay out of any military connection to Russia because it would also undermine there stated comments  that they want to help find a peaceful solution and if they provide military aid it will only prolong the war and they will appear as hypocrites 

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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https://www.technology.org/2023/04/18/americans-surprised-by-what-they-saw-inside-the-t-90a-tank-photo/

 

@Gfted1 you will appreciate this with your interest in military hardware 

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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