Ukraine Conflict - "An empire founded by war has to maintain itself by war"

[kanisatha]

20 hours ago, Chilloutman said:

Gas and oil prices were keeping Russia floating this summer, I think they have like 30% of GDP from those. It will be interesting what will happen next year if prices really fall and EU stop buying them from Russia

And despite all that revenue from oil and gas, per the IMF's estimation, Russia's GDP will shrink by as much as 6% for 2022 itself, much, much worse for 2023.

[pmp10]

1 hour ago, kanisatha said:

And despite all that revenue from oil and gas, per the IMF's estimation, Russia's GDP will shrink by as much as 6% for 2022 itself, much, much worse for 2023.

Their latest estimations for Russian real GDP contraction are of 3,4% this year and 2,3% the next.

[Zoraptor]

Is there anything more pathetic than thinking anyone who disagrees with you must be a paid Russian troll? Could it be hiding behind a publicly announced ignore and still- as always with such people, just grab Bartimaeus's script ffs it's there in his sig- actually reading messages and sniping away because you can't help yourself. Sheesh man, have some self control.

Tell you what Lexx- or anyone else for that matter- complain to the admins if you think I'm actually a paid shill, or using morphs. Stop being a coward and actually make the accusation instead of just implying it so you can weasel out. If I'm not, you can post a public apology, or get one of the mods to do it for you if your battered ego can't handle it.

No? Then you're a gutless hypocrite. Personal attack? Well no, objective fact really. If you aren't willing to back your words then you don't actually believe what you're saying but are still making accusations as red herrings, ie actual whataboutism.

Also, massive over estimation of time required anyway, and, of course, always a giggle having Bruce say I'm never around any more followed by me being a full time Russian agent.

(FTR I have a lot of under utilised time as I look after my dad who has dementia. Can't do anything for hours at a time that requires proper concentration and which can't be dropped at a moments notice, hence loads of things like gardening and yeah, mucking around on the internet reading stuff. Not something I bring up much for obvious reasons, only time I recall doing it was wrt Bruce Willis, since my dad had exactly the same symptoms)

9 hours ago, Mamoulian War said:

Man, you are really delusional, you have absolutely no clue, how and when people are offended, and you talking bull****, that I did not care about what NATO did to Yugoslavia, and USA did to Iraq, is offending me to the max level.

That's a massively long bow to draw from me replying to Bruce's obvious trolling by giving him an answer he couldn't troll back at- and was not directed at you at all.

Let's be blunt though, celebrating the moral superiority and fantastic response Europe achieved by, uh, taking the 3rd world's resources is an absolutely terrible look for anyone not western. It's also hilarious when you're constantly told that colonialism is 'in the past'.

[Hurlshort]

What if we hire Zoraptor to troll AGAINST Russia? I mean, they can't be paying him too much. I bet we could double it!

I have a gift card to Pressed Juicery I can offer in support. 

Sorry to hear about your dad, btw.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Hurlshort

[Malcador]

I wonder how much the Russian shills actually get paid, though. I could use some side income.

 

[Sarex]

15 minutes ago, Malcador said:

I wonder how much the Russian shills actually get paid, though. I could use some side income.

Idk, if they are based in Moscow, as seems to be the claim, I would imagine a decent amount. I don't think it's below 1k USD a month.

@ZoraptorSorry to hear about your dad.

[Malcador]

9 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Idk, if they are based in Moscow, as seems to be the claim, I would imagine a decent amount. I don't think it's below 1k USD a month.

Time to bust out my Adidas then.

[Zoraptor]

About £1000 p/w for working in the troll factory apparently, though the source on that is lol (The Scum, so fair chance it's just made up). You can pick St Pete's, Moscow or, uh, Ghana?

Funnily enough trolling people for money is one of the things I certainly could do. I could do it in my sleep, no concentration at all required and if I can 'troll' people without trying imagine if I put my mind to it...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I think people really need to get better at spotting the difference between trolls, disinformation, and people with opinions you don't like. Unfortunately posters here are going to be doing it for free, so to speak, instead of getting a fat stack for pissing off fans of niche videogames. Really if a guy's posts are 1000 word essays and not insinuations that you enjoy having watching other men have sex with your wife or cheap infographs, then you're probably not dealing with a troll or bot.

2 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Is there anything more pathetic than thinking anyone who disagrees with you must be a paid Russian troll?

If you want to be literal: nazifurs, findom pay pigs, fans of Sailor Moon Crystal, the guy who tried to assassinate David Lynch on the astral plane, and reply guys.

I spend too much time on the internet.

Sorry about your dad.

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

Idk, if they are based in Moscow, as seems to be the claim, I would imagine a decent amount. I don't think it's below 1k USD a month.

Hmm, if I farmed that out to two or three people, I could make enough to pay the rent with some extra change.

[Sarex]

3 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

Hmm, if I farmed that out to two or three people, I could make enough to pay the rent with some extra change.

You know what's funny... rent is getting there here in Belgrade too... The Russians have skyrocketed the real estate...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

14 minutes ago, Sarex said:

You know what's funny... rent is getting there here in Belgrade too... The Russians have skyrocketed the real estate...

I think rent is spiking everywhere, I know in the US part of the reason is an algorithm: https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-realpage-rent

Honesrly it wouldn't surprise me if it is being adopted worldwide and causing everyone who isn't a landlord major grief. Additionally in the US we have a lot of people who buy up properties over market rate with cash and that really drives up housing costs.

[Sarex]

6 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

Additionally in the US we have a lot of people who buy up properties over market rate with cash and that really drives up housing costs.

Same thing over here, it's just that everyone is wondering who these people are, as this aint the US.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

10 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Same thing over here, it's just that everyone is wondering who these people are, as this aint the US.

Ah. I'm not sure what Serbia's finance or property laws are like, but a substantial number of properties here are being bought by businesses rather than people. It certainly explains the ability to get their hands on enough liquid cash.

[Sarex]

7 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

Ah. I'm not sure what Serbia's finance or property laws are like, but a substantial number of properties here are being bought by businesses rather than people. It certainly explains the ability to get their hands on enough liquid cash.

Anyone can buy anything as long as they pay taxes. I know that in western europe the same thing is happening where companies are buying whole buildings and making it impossible for anyone to own a property in the major cities, so they can set obscene rents. The difference here in Serbia is that residential development is not well regulated, so the supply somewhat keeps up with demand, where as in europe it's very hard to get permits to build a residential property.

[Gfted1]

Iirc, my house will be paid off in 7 years. Then Im going to party like its 1999, then when I retire Ill piss off to Mexico and rent it out. Thus becoming a fatcat.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

56 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Anyone can buy anything as long as they pay taxes. I know that in western europe the same thing is happening where companies are buying whole buildings and making it impossible for anyone to own a property in the major cities, so they can set obscene rents. The difference here in Serbia is that residential development is not well regulated, so the supply somewhat keeps up with demand, where as in europe it's very hard to get permits to build a residential property.

Hmm, well I do recall you saying that a lot of Russians (who work in tech?) ended up in Serbia, so it could be they brought capital with them and are using it. But I don't know much about Serbian real estate and don't want to put my foot in my mouth, so I'll just express sympathy with renters who are dealing with rising costs whatever the cause.

How to get this back on topic.....Well I bet rent in Ukraine is going to skyrocket when (hopefully) the war ends. We will see how many strings reconstruction comes with.

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Is there anything more pathetic than thinking anyone who disagrees with you must be a paid Russian troll? Could it be hiding behind a publicly announced ignore and still- as always with such people, just grab Bartimaeus's script ffs it's there in his sig- actually reading messages and sniping away because you can't help yourself. Sheesh man, have some self control.

Tell you what Lexx- or anyone else for that matter- complain to the admins if you think I'm actually a paid shill, or using morphs. Stop being a coward and actually make the accusation instead of just implying it so you can weasel out. If I'm not, you can post a public apology, or get one of the mods to do it for you if your battered ego can't handle it.

No? Then you're a gutless hypocrite. Personal attack? Well no, objective fact really. If you aren't willing to back your words then you don't actually believe what you're saying but are still making accusations as red herrings, ie actual whataboutism.

Also, massive over estimation of time required anyway, and, of course, always a giggle having Bruce say I'm never around any more followed by me being a full time Russian agent.

(FTR I have a lot of under utilised time as I look after my dad who has dementia. Can't do anything for hours at a time that requires proper concentration and which can't be dropped at a moments notice, hence loads of things like gardening and yeah, mucking around on the internet reading stuff. Not something I bring up much for obvious reasons, only time I recall doing it was wrt Bruce Willis, since my dad had exactly the same symptoms)

That's a massively long bow to draw from me replying to Bruce's obvious trolling by giving him an answer he couldn't troll back at- and was not directed at you at all.

Let's be blunt though, celebrating the moral superiority and fantastic response Europe achieved by, uh, taking the 3rd world's resources is an absolutely terrible look for anyone not western. It's also hilarious when you're constantly told that colonialism is 'in the past'.

Thats quite a  rant, are you feeling better? You demonstrate whataboutism all the time, its fine but just own it 

Oh and you making personal attacks on me when you call me a troll, I've told you many times Im not a troll. There is a  pattern to the  way  you respond to Russian actions  and how you handwave war crimes and constantly use whataboutism. Maybe you not aware of it but several people notice it and its not just me and  it has been pointed out to you several times 

And you perfectly entitled to your opinion but dont get all defensive when its raised. Russian paid trolls and shrills are real and exist. Im not suggesting you are one but they exist and Im sorry that seems to bother you  so much. Its the Internet, that's how it goes 

 

[Gorth]

7 hours ago, KP From Another World said:

Ah. I'm not sure what Serbia's finance or property laws are like, but a substantial number of properties here are being bought by businesses rather than people. It certainly explains the ability to get their hands on enough liquid cash.

Same thing here. They have become investment objects instead of bonds or gold bars. People with either spare cash or good bank connections buy up homes in numbers, driving up rent and prices, making owning your own home unachievable for more and more "normal" working families with normal day jobs.

 

[Gorth]

Putting on the moderator cap:

I'm not going to bother pruning this thread, but it's time to lay off the personal attacks. That goes for everybody involved. Yes, 'everybody' implies more than two people...

 

edit: Yes, censorship can be alive an well if required. Doesn't take an autocrat to do...

[xzar_monty]

22 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Same thing here. They have become investment objects instead of bonds or gold bars. People with either spare cash or good bank connections buy up homes in numbers, driving up rent and prices, making owning your own home unachievable for more and more "normal" working families with normal day jobs.

Haven't noticed or read of the same thing here, but don't take that as an indicator that it doesn't exist.

It's quite unfortunate that the math of money tends to work that way, i.e. once the "game" goes on long enough, more and more money tends to end up in fewer and fewer hands, which in turn skews the whole system in ways such as this. Nobody has to do anything illegal or even immoral, but things can still get quite ugly.

Getting from zero money to a reasonable income can be extremely difficult. But once you already have plenty of money, making plenty more generally isn't all that difficult if you're not foolish or carelessly rapacious.

And yes, of course the societies themselves are different and give different starting points: I got a superb university education and paid zero money for it (without scholarships or anything, just by happening to live in the Nordic countries), whereas an equal of mine in the US would likely be in serious debt by the time they graduate. Which would be an awful starting point.

[BruceVC]

4 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Haven't noticed or read of the same thing here, but don't take that as an indicator that it doesn't exist.

It's quite unfortunate that the math of money tends to work that way, i.e. once the "game" goes on long enough, more and more money tends to end up in fewer and fewer hands, which in turn skews the whole system in ways such as this. Nobody has to do anything illegal or even immoral, but things can still get quite ugly.

Getting from zero money to a reasonable income can be extremely difficult. But once you already have plenty of money, making plenty more generally isn't all that difficult if you're not foolish or carelessly rapacious.

And yes, of course the societies themselves are different and give different starting points: I got a superb university education and paid zero money for it (without scholarships or anything, just by happening to live in the Nordic countries), whereas an equal of mine in the US would likely be in serious debt by the time they graduate. Which would be an awful starting point.

Do you guys have privately owned universities in Finland, or are the universities all state funded and controlled? And is it  the same with your hospitals. Does everyone have free access to your hospitals or do you have to have medical aid 

The reason I ask is I consider the Nordic countries to be a successful hybrid of socialism and Capitalism but it depends on what the definition of socialism is. On Codex someone said to me that the Nordic countries are not socialist, they have social programs?

My definition of socialism is the textbook definition 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

"Socialism is a left-wing[1] economic philosophy and movement encompassing a range of economic systems characterized by the dominance of social ownership[2] of the means of production[3][4] as opposed to private ownership.[5][6][4] As a term, it describes the economic, political and social theories and movements associated with the implementation of such systems "

So  if all the hospitals and education is state controlled in Finland  and not in the private sector thats socialism to me. And it clearly works and is successful yet Finland also has  a vibrant and successful private sector which is why I call it a hybrid of socialism and Capitalism

Is that accurate for Finland, do you consider Finland to be socialist and Capitalist?

 

 

[Gorth]

25 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Do you guys have privately owned universities in Finland, or are the universities all state funded and controlled? And is it  the same with your hospitals. Does everyone have free access to your hospitals or do you have to have medical aid 

The reason I ask is I consider the Nordic countries to be a successful hybrid of socialism and Capitalism but it depends on what the definition of socialism is. On Codex someone said to me that the Nordic countries are not socialist, they have social programs?

My definition of socialism is the textbook definition 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

"Socialism is a left-wing[1] economic philosophy and movement encompassing a range of economic systems characterized by the dominance of social ownership[2] of the means of production[3][4] as opposed to private ownership.[5][6][4] As a term, it describes the economic, political and social theories and movements associated with the implementation of such systems "

So  if all the hospitals and education is state controlled in Finland  and not in the private sector thats socialism to me. And it clearly works and is successful yet Finland also has  a vibrant and successful private sector which is why I call it a hybrid of socialism and Capitalism

Is that accurate for Finland, do you consider Finland to be socialist and Capitalist?

 

 

I believe Finland is very much a Nordic country, not only in a geographical sense, but a cultural and societal way. I.e. "The Nordic Model". Which is privately owned and run companies with government run services (financed through taxes). Personal tax tends to be a lot higher than corporate tax btw, to encourage the growth of businesses. That being said, labour laws and regulations tends to be handled between unions and employers (the latter also have an organisation to bolster their combined bargaining power as employers). Only if voluntary agreements fail, does the government step in and enforce work place regulations (at least that was my experience 20+ years ago).

 

[Elerond]

25 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Do you guys have privately owned universities in Finland, or are the universities all state funded and controlled? And is it  the same with your hospitals. Does everyone have free access to your hospitals or do you have to have medical aid 

The reason I ask is I consider the Nordic countries to be a successful hybrid of socialism and Capitalism but it depends on what the definition of socialism is. On Codex someone said to me that the Nordic countries are not socialist, they have social programs?

My definition of socialism is the textbook definition 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

"Socialism is a left-wing[1] economic philosophy and movement encompassing a range of economic systems characterized by the dominance of social ownership[2] of the means of production[3][4] as opposed to private ownership.[5][6][4] As a term, it describes the economic, political and social theories and movements associated with the implementation of such systems "

So  if all the hospitals and education is state controlled in Finland  and not in the private sector thats socialism to me. And it clearly works and is successful yet Finland also has  a vibrant and successful private sector which is why I call it a hybrid of socialism and Capitalism

Is that accurate for Finland, do you consider Finland to be socialist and Capitalist?

 

 

All of the universities are private, which get state funding equal to private capital they are able to rise. In past it was depend on how many people graduated from university in year.

Finland is capitalist, where even fundamental services like electric grid and postal service are privately owned. State only owns percentage of stocks in several companies, but can't directly control even companies which it owns majority of shares.

Although cities own several companies which they have direct control over. And cities fund public health care and schools. Although in end of this year public health moves to be funded by state. 

Police is state funded, as is military and border guard.

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Elerond said:

All of the universities are private, which get state funding equal to private capital they are able to rise. In past it was depend on how many people graduated from university in year.

Finland is capitalist, where even fundamental services like electric grid and postal service are privately owned. State only owns percentage of stocks in several companies, but can't directly control even companies which it owns majority of shares.

Although cities own several companies which they have direct control over. And cities fund public health care and schools. Although in end of this year public health moves to be funded by state. 

Police is state funded, as is military and border guard.

What you and  Gorth is saying is interesting but I want to clarify something. In SA we have universities that are also state funded, most are. But we also have private sector funded universities. But even in the state funded universities you have to pay for your degree unless you can qualify for NSFAS (National Student Financial Aid System ) but this only  applies to students whose parents dont earn much money

So in Nordic countries is all university access free? And then when you say " State only owns percentage of stocks in several companies" that means they minority shareholders but is it  still tax payers money that pays for this minority shareholding?

What is the reason the state owns stocks in private sector companies? Is it a standard percentage of shares across all private sector companies like 20%? 

Im not criticizing this model because it  clearly works but its interesting. In SA we have the PIC (public investment corporation) that invests the government employees  pension funds and they own shares worth  about 14-18% of the total  SA listed companies but it varies from company to company and our PIC  is considered a normal pension fund  investment company but its public sector owned. So maybe thats the same as the Finland model of government owning stocks, is that what you mean?

 

 

[Elerond]

13 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

What you and  Gorth is saying is interesting but I want to clarify something. In SA we have universities that are also state funded, most are. But we also have private sector funded universities. But even in the state funded universities you have to pay for your degree unless you can qualify for NSFAS (National Student Financial Aid System ) but this only  applies to students whose parents dont earn much money

So in Nordic countries is all university access free? And then when you say " State only owns percentage of stocks in several companies" that means they minority shareholders but is it  still tax payers money that pays for this minority shareholding?

What is the reason the state owns stocks in private sector companies? Is it a standard percentage of shares across all private sector companies like 20%? 

Im not criticizing this model because it  clearly works but its interesting. In SA we have the PIC (public investment corporation) that invests the government employees  pension funds and they own shares worth  about 14-18% of the total  SA listed companies but it varies from company to company and our PIC  is considered a normal pension fund  investment company but its public sector owned. So maybe thats the same as the Finland model of government owning stocks, is that what you mean?

 

 

In Finland universities are free for Finnish and EU/ETA decree students. Universities started to collect tuition from students outside of EU/ETA in 2017. If you have not enrolled in university you can still study university course through so called Open University, but then courses cost 15€/study point (26.67h worth of estimated work)

It depends on company, usually they want representative in company board because of strategic significance of company. In not so strategically important companies they just own stocks through investment funds, to increase state income.

For example state owns over 50% of shares in Finland's largest energy company Fortum, and closer to 40% in Finland's largest fuel company Neste, to ensure that they are able to give their opinions how those companies operate. State also owns big share of Finnish postal  company Posti and Finland's largest railway company VR. EU rules put limits on what companies states can fully own and control, which is why Finland privatized most of state owned companies in 1990s when it seek membership in EU.

Pension companies in Finland are mostly private mutual insurance companies (so they are owned by their customers)