Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 5

[Gromnir]

also gonna make the obvious observation that the cost for a human to increase charisma from 19 to 20 is 4 points. math suggests is best for a human to start at 19 charisma as 'posed to 20 but such a choice is most certainly not make or break. one o' the things poe developers addressed were the asinine even v. odd number aspect o' attribute benefits. even v. odd attributes is a silly concern one needs make in wotr. 

have mentioned previous how greatswords is... fine. is not anywhere near the best or worst weapon choice. am assuming a paladin is taking leader background in part for the greatsword bonus, 'cause two-handed weapons is typical better unless you dual-wield and a 10 dex paladin is most obvious not gonna be dual wielding. regardless, greatswords is hardly a best choice but is more than good enough for core or lower difficulties. however, is worth noting there is only a couple decent greatsword choices in the game, and particular since finnean has been nerfed/fixed, it means that in a game spanning many tens of hours o' gameplay, you is only gonna have a couple greatsword drops which is noteworthy. the paucity o' great greatswords won't make game unplayable or too difficult, but w/o meta is ez to miss the one decent act 3 greatsword. miss the holy greatsword and is gonna feel like you are underperforming based on nothing save fact you made a "bad" level 1 choice.

aside, pickpocket is kinda the obvious win background for most builds particular if you play turn-based or higher difficulties. initiative is all too often underappreciated. 

warrior of the holy light loses spell casting. maybe doesn't sound like a big deal, but paladins get some very powerful buffs. is a serious penalty which may not be obvious at first glance.

on core, a heavy armour tank is viable. our first run had a sword & board seelah as a tank and we managed just fine. the holy avenger is a nice weapon and it is gonna be useful the entire game. is also a couple o' shields which is providing extreme useful benefits beyond their ac increase functionality; chances are you are gonna want somebody in your party capable o' wielding at least heavy shields. seelah is the obvious companion for the role. if your main is a paladin and you don't bring seelah along, then is worth considering going sword and board + heavy armour, 'cause none o' the companions is an obvious sword and board choice.

some o' the most challenging content is early, so is worth considering taking a level o' sohei, gendarme, oracle or whatever to acquire your mount as early as possible. with one level o' sohei, you may choose the spirited charge mounted feat which will double your weapon damage on a charge and you will maintain max bab... but that will mean your mark of justice comes one level later. regardless, the easiest way to flatten the difficulty curve sans moving the difficulty slider is with animal companions. 

HA! Good Fun!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 hours ago, Sarex said:

I spoiled the story already, but I do not play it for the story mostly.

You naughty 

4 hours ago, Sarex said:

Still suggestions are welcomed.

So the most important thing is to just play the game how you want. I won't make fun of you for playing on a low difficulty, because iirc even the developers play on easy mode rather than face the monster they created. Playing vanilla Unfair is pretty much only for sadomasochists, getting wiped out by ranged attackers who hit like a truck isn't fun for most people.

As to the build, to start with I'd have knocked down Charisma to 19 and put the remaining points into Constitution and either Dexterity or Wisdom, or maybe take a hit in either Intelligence, Dexterity, or Wisdom to grab 16 Strength. You get an odd number of attribute increases so in the long run it makes more sense to take a small hit for your main attribute at first and go for more well rounded base stats.

Heavy Armor builds don't really have a lot of support in the vanilla game, they will fall behind the unarmored monk dip tanks or animal companions in Ac and the speed malus hurts. Also, if you go mounted you first use the mount's AC, so your heavy armor bonus doesn't contribute to tankiness. To add a bit of insult, imo the unique Heavy Armor options are pretty underwhelming.

The big problem with the Paladin is that it is one of two martial classes without access to Bonus Feats. This means Human is a great choice for that bonus feat (and the extra skill I guess), and that you don't want to take builds that are feat starved (no exotic weapons or twf). In general I'd say that Improved Initiative (especially in Turn-Based, so much that i'd rate it as near essential) and your Weapon Focus/Improved Critical are good choices. If you're going mounted there are a few options you'll want to pick up to help out your mount (if you have ranks in mobility?), and the Teamwork feats are always a good choice for melee. And if you have ranks in Persuasion I'd reccomend Dazzling Display and Dreadful Carnage, as demoralization is really good.

Longsword isn't as good as scimitar or rapier in terms of base stats, but there are a lot of great longswords in the game so they're a solid choice. I believe there are enough so that if you take Seelah and a sekrit companion* you'll still have some good uniques to spare. In general the weapon or armor enhancement bonus can be buffed by magic weapon (greater) andmagical vestments (?), so don't pay as much attention to the enhancement bonus as to weapon properties and unique abilities. The big exception is weapons with a DC effect, you can count on those being worse than they sound.

But really, I'd just play the game in a way that you enjoy. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. If you want to be miserable just watch NuTrek or Sailor Moon Crystal.

*

Spoiler

Queen Galfrey can be recruited late game. No idea on her build or anything, but she's almost certainly a Paladin who uses longswords, like your pal Seelah

 

[Sarex]

@majestic@Space KP, Baby@Gromnir

The thing about making fun of me for playing on normal was just a joke. I think I mentioned it here before that I dislike difficulty that is essentially just a number increase. If I get the feeling that the enemies are becoming spongy I will drop it back to normal. But the biggest reason I upped the difficulty to normal was because Kingmaker was too easy, the hardest enemy in the game was basically just figuring out to space your characters so they don't hit each other when confused (and I'm embarrassed it took me more that 2 tries to figure that out). I won't even mention the last boss...

Re armor: That sounds broken and should be monk exclusive or there should be better armors to match, or there should be a cap to ability scores (this one was a problem in Kingmaker too). edit: I do see now that it is a monk feat. I want to do a pure paladin this time.

Re mount: If there are no benefits to not taking a mount I will most likely get one.

Re Charisma: Tbh, I didn't not think about that and you guys are right, I'll edit it out, or just mod the save game to relevel the character again.

Re greatswords: Tbh there were not that many greatsword choices and I always like to rp the holly avenger. I was toying around with an idea to dual wield longswords, but single hand longsword build was not bad in kingmaker so I wanted to try it again (the caveat being that the kingmaker run was on normal).

Re Warrior of the Holy Light: I thought only the Guardian didn't get spell casting as the description only mentions it for that subclass... Welp, guess I really will reload.

Re Seelah: I will respec her in to a fighter.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sarex
lost part of my post...

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

Re Charisma: Tbh, I didn't not think about that and you guys are right, I'll edit it out, or just mod the save game to relevel the character again.

You meet a guy later in chapter iii that lets you relevel and respec your character (over and over). At no cost as far as I could see in chapter iii (he later charged you for it in chapter v iirc)

 

[majestic]

Hilor is always present once you reach Defender's Heart (first at the tavern, then at your crusade camp, later in the cites), and as far as I know there's a certain amount of free respecs you get before he starts charging.

[Gorth]

7 minutes ago, majestic said:

Hilor is always present once you reach Defender's Heart (first at the tavern, then at your crusade camp, later in the cites), and as far as I know there's a certain amount of free respecs you get before he starts charging.

Ah, for me it just so happened, the first time he charged me was after I saved his butt of all things (I think that was chapter v? After my date with Nocticula)

 

[Sarex]

I just used Toybox

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

39 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I just used Toybox

5 hours ago, Sarex said:

Re Seelah: I will respec her in to a fighter.

You naughty

5 hours ago, Sarex said:

If there are no benefits to not taking a mount I will most likely get one.

Well the weapon bond isn't bad per se, but generally the mount seems to be better because you get better movement and a tank (and more carrying capacity), plus a bug allows you to make full attacks when your mount moves (though this may have been fixed, TTT fixes it by gating it behind a feat that requires 14 mobility, which is pnp accurate). You may also be able to trick the game by using reduce person on yourself before getting the mount and being able to select the wolf or dog instead of the horse, which have more impressive stats but take until you hit level 7 to be able to mount. You may not be able to enlarge the non-horse mounts though, I think TTT fixes that but the vanilla game counts the size increase as a permanent buff that doesn't stack with spells.

5 hours ago, Sarex said:

Re armor: That sounds broken and should be monk exclusive or there should be better armors to match, or there should be a cap to ability scores (this one was a problem in Kingmaker too). edit: I do see now that it is a monk feat. I want to do a pure paladin this time.

Yeah, the TTT mod adds a couple of things to help Heavy Armor characters, you go full 20 Fighter and spend 2 Mythic Abilities and you'll get a whopping +11 AC and +14 to the Dex Cap, but that takes a lot longer to come online than a monk dip and has a much higher cost. If you're not a Fighter you can still get +6 AC/+10 Dex cap for two Mythic Abilities....but there are more appealing choices there.

It is broken, but you know another way to phrase broken? Unbalanced.

[Sarex]

1 hour ago, Space KP, Baby said:

It is broken, but you know another way to phrase broken? Unbalanced.

When I was writing I was thinking the exact same thing.

1 hour ago, Space KP, Baby said:

Well the weapon bond isn't bad per se, but generally the mount seems to be better because you get better movement and a tank (and more carrying capacity), plus a bug allows you to make full attacks when your mount moves (though this may have been fixed, TTT fixes it by gating it behind a feat that requires 14 mobility, which is pnp accurate). You may also be able to trick the game by using reduce person on yourself before getting the mount and being able to select the wolf or dog instead of the horse, which have more impressive stats but take until you hit level 7 to be able to mount. You may not be able to enlarge the non-horse mounts though, I think TTT fixes that but the vanilla game counts the size increase as a permanent buff that doesn't stack with spells.

The forum bugged out and the first draft of that sentence was posted... I remember the weapon bond thing and how underwhelming it was when you had a good weapon. I'll probably go with a mount this time.

 

As far as my playthrough goes, I arrived at the inn without much difficulties. (random crits still force a reload)

Edited December 26, 2022 by Sarex

[Gromnir]

keep in mind, w/o the need to respec, seelah makes an excellent skald, court poet or even oracle. sohei and gendarme is also decent melee focus alternatives.

following all the changes from patches and the enhanced edition, skald remains one o' the best possible buffers o' a melee based party and a court poet archetype skald is gonna be an excellent choice for a party which has intelligence and charisma based casters as well as paladins. seelah is not difficult to build as a skald or court poet and with such choices she makes for a viable tank on difficulties up to and including hard.

go almost complete oracle after a couple levels o' paladin is a worthy if overlooked consideration for seelah, as long as you focus on healing and buffing spells. seelah won't have the dcs necessary to make use o' most offensive spells, but is plenty of other companions who may fulfill such a role. choose nature mystery will result in you acquiring one o' the best mounts in the game, a charisma based ac bonus and a save buff for animal companions. 

sohei/gendarme/demonslayer, individual or combined, is also not-fighter options for seelah which make sense and do not require any futzing with mods which may break anytime there is a large patch. at least 11 levels o' sohei gets you flurry with a reach weapon, a horse and mounted feats w/o needing meet prerequisites. order of the ****atrice is a good option for a gendarme build and results in fighter kinda feat progression. a large % o' builds is gonna benefit from a single level o' demonslayer.

aside, am knowing virtual every guide for skalds recommends the lethal/deadly route, but enhanced edition changed the seeming unrelated guarded hearth to a competence bonus meaning when you have sosiel initiate a guarded hearth (pretty much every boss battle) you lose the attack bonus benefits from a skald's lethal stance. converse, reckless and inspired ferocity is untyped and functional double resulting in a massive +10 attack bonus at level 16. the beast totem line provides natural ac bonuses which cancel out the penalties from the reckless stance. yeah, the increased crit aspect o' lethal/deadly is a massive benefit and should not be ignored, but that bonus comes late in the game and the added crit range don't mean much if you cannot hit an enemy. untyped attack bonus boosts is not common in wotr and the skald's inspired/reckless provides a particular large untyped advantage. 

even w/o respec, seelah is highly customizable and potential fulfills many roles. 

HA! Good Fun!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

When I was writing I was thinking the exact same thing.

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

The forum bugged out and the first draft of that sentence was posted... I remember the weapon bond thing and how underwhelming it was when you had a good weapon. I'll probably go with a mount this time.

Yeah, it's heavily dependent on weapons not having some of the stuff you can use. I think Axiomatic and Brilliant Energy would be good....but as good as Iomeneigh? Probably not. And it takes much more time to come online, while the mount is kicking as soon as you get it.

If you go mount, generally it's better to build mounts more as tanks than damage. Dex tanking is probably better than barding, and doesn't require feats. Also a bug, but mounts can apparently wear haramaki armor. Bracers are probably a better choice for most though.

[Gromnir]

fyi

as with most melee builds, the gravesinger axe (great, battle or hand) is a no lose option, but there is two weapons which specific enhance paladin efficacy and both are longswords. the holy avenger is known, so is hardly spoiler fare, but there is also...

Spoiler

the holy devotee's wrath which is a holy +3 weapon and neutral enemies count as evil for both the holy quality and the smite ability. is available via a difficult to miss vendor in act iv.

so, metagamey if you go axes or longswords.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 27, 2022 by Gromnir

[xzar_monty]

Question. Towards the end of the Ivory Sanctum, there's an encounter where you're almost overwhelmed by demons who appear both in front of and behind you. But then you're half-saved by a group of angels -- at least if you play an Azata. But what happens at this point if you're playing a Demon or a Lich? I can't see any angels coming to help you.

[ShadySands]

Same thing happens

Spoiler

You won't be abandoned for your path choice until chapter 5

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by ShadySands

[Sarex]

I need to reiterate how much I hate timed events. Doing all the stuff after the inn in 3 days is really trying my patience.

[majestic]

The only thing you really need to do is the marketplace, and perhaps a certain random encounter (but that might even be unmissable) before the inn attack. You can then proceed and do what you want afterwards.

Well, the Tower of Estrod might be part of the timed event. At any rate, do the marketplace, go to the tower and things should be peachy. Don't worry about the time limit, unless you really want to skip the battle.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

15 minutes ago, majestic said:

The only thing you really need to do is the marketplace, and perhaps a certain random encounter (but that might even be unmissable) before the inn attack. You can then proceed and do what you want afterwards.

Well, the Tower of Estrod might be part of the timed event. At any rate, do the marketplace, go to the tower and things should be peachy. Don't worry about the time limit, unless you really want to skip the battle.

The library resolves much differently if you don't do it before the tavern gets attacked, and maybe visiting Daeran's mansion will play differently if you wait. I'd go ahead and do those before the tower if possible. That random encounter is forced so unless you rest for three days at the market, you're doing it.

If you do the Tower quest before the attack you get time added to the timer. But it's a hard fight unless you can pass a couple of checks, so much so the game advises you to wait.

2 hours ago, Sarex said:

I need to reiterate how much I hate timed events. Doing all the stuff after the inn in 3 days is really trying my patience.

I like them when done well, but I think this timed event has too many things that can blow up if you don't deal with them first. One could say that the things you should do before and the things it doesn't matter if you do before should be more......balanced.

[kanisatha]

Is any part of Act 2 timed?

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, kanisatha said:

Is any part of Act 2 timed?

sorta. the crusade feature has timers. let the ai do crusade and you have no problems. however, if you lead the crusade, then it is possible to capture a fort too early, 'cause is no other forts to capture and you need capture an enemy fort every thirty days or begin taking a morale penalty. is also possible, though less likely, to beat all enemy armies in act two before you has finished all world map content. gotta beat a new army every four days or you begin losing morale. defeat all enemies too quick and is no way to stave off morale loss. 

act v, if you choose to do the ascension route, has a particular annoying timer. you functional need to advance the calendar many months to a specific date which may result in a catastrophic hit to your army morale even if you has literal beaten every fixed demon army in your stretch o' the worldwound.  

annoying? it is an owlcat game, so...

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[kanisatha]

5 hours ago, Gromnir said:

sorta. the crusade feature has timers. let the ai do crusade and you have no problems. however, if you lead the crusade, then it is possible to capture a fort too early, 'cause is no other forts to capture and you need capture an enemy fort every thirty days or begin taking a morale penalty. is also possible, though less likely, to beat all enemy armies in act two before you has finished all world map content. gotta beat a new army every four days or you begin losing morale. defeat all enemies too quick and is no way to stave off morale loss. 

act v, if you choose to do the ascension route, has a particular annoying timer. you functional need to advance the calendar many months to a specific date which may result in a catastrophic hit to your army morale even if you has literal beaten every fixed demon army in your stretch o' the worldwound.  

annoying? it is an owlcat game, so...

HA! Good Fun!

Thanks!

My understanding on taking forts was I needed to do one every ten days.

So no quests or events on a timer? For example,

Spoiler

saving the hellknights?

[Gromnir]

8 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Thanks!

My understanding on taking forts was I needed to do one every ten days.

So no quests or events on a timer? For example,

  Hide contents

saving the hellknights?

if there is any quest on a timer in act two, am unaware. however, am personal having never waited all that long to do the couple quests which have narrative if not mechanical urgency. that said, am also unable to recall any such complaints.  

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

8 hours ago, kanisatha said:

Thanks!

My understanding on taking forts was I needed to do one every ten days.

So no quests or events on a timer? For example,

  Hide contents

saving the hellknights?

I don't remember act ii, but as @Gromnir said, thirty days is the grace period you get after capturing a fort before something bad is supposed to happen. One of the three tower icons on top of the HUD turns yellow after said thirty days in act iii and act v. I didn't leave them in that state for long though, so I don't know the practical implications of it. The only this was a concern was during the end game, as I forgot to space the conquests out a bit and I had all towers under my control with nothing left to take. I suppose I could have left a tower under enemy siege to its own devices and go re-conquer it. But the moral changes may end up being a net negative if doing it that way

[Sarex]

Finished most of side quests, at least all that would be affected by the inn defense (dialog change and quest lock out). Now I'm trying to do the flawless inn defense... Grease, lots of grease.

[majestic]

Selective Grease trivializes this fight, and more than a handful of others too. There's a bunch of spells that work very well far beyond what their level would suggest, like Glitterdust and Web, in addition to Grease. If you have feat left over for Heigthen Spell, you can use that to increase the spells' DCs, but I'm personally not a fan outside of playing a Lich with merged spellbook, where Heighten Spell helps fill otherwise dead spell levels with great Lich spells.

It's - in my opinion, at least - generally better to boost DCs through Spell Foci on more control focused casters due to the way expanded arsenal works. Selective Spell already adds a level anyway and adding Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration benefits whatever you're Extended Arsenal'ing. In a perfect world there'd be enough feats to go around, but there just aren't, and if you're making a damage focused caster, like when you turn sweet little Ember into a Hellfire Ray spamming whirlwind of death, Empower and Bolster increase Hellfire Ray's level too - and they add more damage.

That all said, taking Heightened Spell on a control focused Ember isn't going to brick her, I'd just argue that eventually boosting all of her Enchantmen DCs by +4 with Expanded Arsenal beats pushing a Selective Glitterdust from level three to six.

Heighten Spell is probably most useful on a Cleric like Sosiel, or casters that have prepared spell lists, as they get access to higher spell levels earlier, especially with merged spell books. There's also one other thing to consider, Heighten Spell is easy to use and doesn't require pre-planning builds or metagaming the proper levels to take feats and Mythic Abilities.

Edited December 29, 2022 by majestic

[Sarex]

Would have done it on the first try had I not been going for the flawless victory...Those stairs are the worst, I cannot believe they didn't fix them after this long.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Sarex