Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 5

[Gromnir]

31 minutes ago, majestic said:

Nothing prevents her from being on Bismuth

kinda stretching to try and make this work, eh? as you note, bismuth dies easy, which when it happens (frequent) is gonna result in arue being prone for a round, and yeah, until you get the improved snapshot feats you do indeed need to be in melee to take advantage o' the the reflexive aoo. seeing as how long point blank master is delayed in the neoseeker build, if @Gorth thought arue was dying too frequent in his current normal run am having difficulty imagining what his reaction would be trying to make her snap shot effective. w/o trip on your beastie you are also sacrificing potential aoo chances, so bismuth is more o' a half-arsed desperation option to make complete not viable slight less so.

and arue ab being similar but not quite as good until 19, at which point the vanilla ranger due to gear and improved quarry significant outstrips the neoseeker build is maybe not the best salesmanship o' a build, eh?

to be snapshot effective is requiring a multiple feat investments to make a niche build viable, feats (improved initiative, improved precise shot, etc.,) which may arguably be spent better elsewhere. 

also, am thinking there remains a misunderstanding as well. to get the most outta arue's ranger's bond you need a significant number o' instant enemy casts. otherwise, you got a swell favoured enemy bonus worth sharing at 50% strength against demons of magic and pretty much nothing else. a mere +1 party bonus 'gainst demons o' slaughter, demons o' strength, humans and outsiders? so yeah, the loss o' five levels o' spell casting is deserving more than a hand wave. when kp and others moan about stat bloat, arue with an instant enemy bolstered ranger bond is yet another option for stacking ab, an ab boost which is in fact better than a pure bard's. 

btw, the first level the neoseeker arue build sees a single instant enemy cast is sixteen.

oh well, not gonna agree on this. 

6 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I knew I had saved those 42 potions of Blur for a reason!

blur actual ain't terrible for potions as it has a three minute duration. be wary o' other potions as they may have exceeding short durations or limited efficacy. mage armour is another decent potion as the bonus is a flat +4 and the duration is hour/level. if you don't use barding, then a potion o' mage armour is a no brainer unless you have superior bracers of armour on your critter.

shield of faith potions offer the absolute minimum protection possible for the spell, which is +2. have sosiel cast and the benefits will last longer and be more effective, rendering up to a +5 o' deflection.

barkskin potions get a ten minute duration... am thinking is ten minutes. but again, you are seeing only a +2 boost to natural armour when you could benefiting from +5 if camellia or another caster o' at least level 12 applies the buff to your horse.  

am agreeing with @majesticthat your animal companions deserve to be buffed and geared with similar forethought as your primate party members. you don't need to spend a diamond to rez a horse, but as enemies is more likely to attack seelah's horse than seelah, there is a good reason to make the horse resilient.

that said, if you are having fun doing as you are doing, then is good enough. no need to consider advice if you are progressing just fine already. however, at the end o' act iii there is a couple encounters which offer difficulty spikes similar (worse) to blackwater, and the downside is you are not gonna be able to respec w/o using a mod or by reloading a save which is temporal remote. won't be able to buy additional scrolls or potions either. you will be stuck with current resources and builds trying to get past hurdles more frustrating than other act iii content.

HA! Good Fun!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

9 hours ago, Gorth said:

I knew I had saved those 42 potions of Blur for a reason!

One thing I'll say about WotR is that I end up using potions a lot more than in other games.

The way WotR treats mounted combat means you should focus more of your AC equipment and buffs on the mounts than their riders. As odd as it sounds, your mounts can use Crane Style to boost their AC, and with a Trickster trick you can have them grab Combat Expertise as well. Protective Luck should be deployed when you fight bosses, I think it extends with cackle/chant so in theory you can keep it up as long as they don't need to move or do a full attack.

[majestic]

5 minutes ago, KP From Another World said:

Protective Luck should be deployed when you fight bosses, I think it extends with cackle/chant so in theory you can keep it up as long as they don't need to move or do a full attack.

You can do that before combat, with the entire party. Protective Luck is a standard action, cackle is a move action. Just keep cackling and it will never fall off, once all your party members sans Ember has it you can cackle twice a round for... two more rounds duration per round spent cackling. Yes, yes, yes.

This should be done with Fortune and Protective Luck until you have enough time on the buffs for the entire area.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

20 minutes ago, majestic said:

You can do that before combat, with the entire party. Protective Luck is a standard action, cackle is a move action. Just keep cackling and it will never fall off, once all your party members sans Ember has it you can cackle twice a round for... two more rounds duration per round spent cackling. Yes, yes, yes.

This should be done with Fortune and Protective Luck until you have enough time on the buffs for the entire area.

Wait, Cackle refreshes the whole duration and not just a round? Better than I thought.

Oh, and we can't forget hitting your enemies with misfortune. Combined with protective luck that's rolling thrice and taking the worst.

[majestic]

1 minute ago, KP From Another World said:

Wait, Cackle refreshes the whole duration and not just a round? Better than I thought.

It is pretty boring to do, so it is best to install a mod for it. If you're going to use the cheese, might as well make it easy to use. I mean, sure, you could also spend ten minutes pressing Ember's cackle button and listen to her going HEE HEE HEE all the time, but that's not exactly fun, is it?

[bugarup]

There is "Extend cackle to 10 minutes" option in Toybox, which is a must have mod anyway. And I always include beasties in Bublebuff roaster because they are as valuable party members as those on two legs, 'sides, Bismuth wouldn't last a round otherwise. Also, this whole game is made of cheese, not using it yourself would be impolite.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

34 minutes ago, majestic said:

It is pretty boring to do, so it is best to install a mod for it. If you're going to use the cheese, might as well make it easy to use. I mean, sure, you could also spend ten minutes pressing Ember's cackle button and listen to her going HEE HEE HEE all the time, but that's not exactly fun, is it?

I use the mod that extends it, but I think that's only out of combat and it goes to normal functionality in combat. I'll have to check it sometime.

[Gorth]

Made it past the last boss of those augmented enemies. 100 face? Something to that effect. A pain, taking several tries, but it felt somehow more manageable than the big circular room with the three demons. Specced Aru back to 14 levels of ranger. Bought some of my old gear back from vendors to give to my mounts

Then that old relic, whatshername Galfrey decided to show up and tell me to get my butt in gear into the abyss, which I sort of did. Well, part The Midnight Fane and part The Abyss. The fun stopped at a guy with a bad sense of dark humour. Playful Darkness I think his name is. Tried it twice before calling it a night a sleep on it. Ember can spam Death Wards (which seems to increase my chances a bit) and summons seems to be the best to keep him occupied. I'll work a bit on a better approach when getting back to the game tonight.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

42 minutes ago, Gorth said:

The fun stopped at a guy with a bad sense of dark humour. Playful Darkness I think his name is.

Oh yeah, he's a lot of fun. The best strategy for him are swarms (Cammy can summon them), and trying to dispel his buffs. He's a melee fighter too so if you kite him he can't unleash a full attack.

[Gromnir]

12 hours ago, Gorth said:

Made it past the last boss of those augmented enemies. 100 face? Something to that effect. A pain, taking several tries, but it felt somehow more manageable than the big circular room with the three demons. Specced Aru back to 14 levels of ranger. Bought some of my old gear back from vendors to give to my mounts

Then that old relic, whatshername Galfrey decided to show up and tell me to get my butt in gear into the abyss, which I sort of did. Well, part The Midnight Fane and part The Abyss. The fun stopped at a guy with a bad sense of dark humour. Playful Darkness I think his name is. Tried it twice before calling it a night a sleep on it. Ember can spam Death Wards (which seems to increase my chances a bit) and summons seems to be the best to keep him occupied. I'll work a bit on a better approach when getting back to the game tonight.

there are a few tactics which help, but also keep in mind the battle is technical optional and you will be able to return at a later time, after a few levelups, to deliver some o' the pain playful is sharing. 

general stuff first--

make certain to use seelah's mark of justice. the paladin power is arguable the best boss encounter ability in the game, and if you use the creeping doom suggestion kp made, even the swarms will benefit from seelah's mark of justice. creeping dooms will do minimal damage to playful unless they is bolstered by mark of justice. 

similar, always drop a guarded hearth on the area you intend to fight (doesn't always work out as planned) when facing a tough boss battle. can't recall the last time we had a party w/o mark of justice and somebody who could cast guarded hearth. 

more specific, playful got a serious regeneration thing which you are gonna want to interrupt with heals, 'cause playful is a negative energy freak. pillars of life is a not common mentioned option for dealing with playful. sosiel may cast a bunch o' them (not including heightened, you likely can stack 8 of them in one spot) pre combat and that will kill not only the spawning shadows, but pillars of life damage has no saving throw and they ignore sr, unlike heal spells. channel positive energy will also harm playful. and as usual, playful is not immune to unholy damage, so have sosiel use devouring lust rod means potential 480 damage which playful cannot avoid... though might be 360 damage as owlcat did funny things with playful(s) type. not enough to kill, but it is serious guaranteed damage.

finnean is again a potential lifesaver as much o' playful's ac will be zero'd out by finnean, but the problem is staying alive while in melee range o' playful. is worth considering switching finnean to your best archer and then forcing playful to wade through swarms and summons.

playful is not immune to shaken or fear, but it has ridiculous high wil saves and sr so managing to have a fear spell (other than the frightful aspect effect) stick on playful at higher difficulties almost requires an azata caster with a few o' the mythic path specific buffs. regardless, playful is another situation where an a party member who is able to deliver an over-the-top intimidation check is a major benefit. if you got party wide shatter defenses, then adding the shaken or fear debuff makes a big difference in the fight. 

...

complete unrelated to playful, owlcat made sneaky changes to teamwork feats and there is at least one bug at work. seize the moment now works as per pnp, which means you only ever give it to an inquisitor with solo tactics. gonna get largely the same benefit from outflank, so is no great loss. also, at the very least, the shake it off teamwork feat, at the moment, is doing absolute nothing. for most parties we got a heavy dose o' outflank, seize the moment and shake it off and two o' those feats do nothing useful... but for solo tactics inquisitors, and who here save Gromnir plays inquisitors who benefit from solo tactics?

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 3, 2022 by Gromnir

[InsaneCommander]

I started the Blackwater dungeon yesterday. I forgot to cast Death Ward and suffered ability damage, so I had to reload. After that I played only for a while but didn't have any problems. My buffed Persuasion is on the 70s (50s with the -20 penalty to Mythic Dazzling Display as a move action) and Mythic Hideous Laughter works wonders here. Aru is finishing the the guys on the floor with the Shock Longbow. Bismuth is starting to annoy me because I can't target the enemy while he is on top of them.

Don't know if I was supposed to let the augmented workers live, but I used Angel's Light to give the party +1 HP and they attacked me.

[majestic]

1 hour ago, InsaneCommander said:

Don't know if I was supposed to let the augmented workers live

Doesn't make any difference whatsoever. Also true for the prisoner you'll stumble upon later.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, InsaneCommander said:

 

Don't know if I was supposed to let the augmented workers live, but I used Angel's Light to give the party +1 HP and they attacked me.

am suspecting you identified the purpose o' the augmented workers. the natural reaction o' most not psychotic gamers is to live and let live, 'cause you never know when random acts o' murder is gonna mess up a quest. at a basic and fundamental level, games is teaching tools, and crpgs have taught you to attack everything hostile and speak to every named npc, but to avoid wanton mayhem unless you know there is gonna be no negative repercussions. 

the non aggressive augmented workers will become background npcs you hardly pay any attention to, but then combat with demons and whatnot starts and you reflexive cast prayer, only to discover all those augmented workers at your back has sudden turned hostile and is attacking your casters and archers from the rear.

and yeah, an azata with best joke and a decent enchantment dc should go through blackwater with a bit more ease than most builds. we had considered building a kindred half elf dirge bard or court poet to see just how effective a caster bard/skald could be 'cause it looks good on paper. in fact, there is a sword available in blackwater which is kinda integral to our bard or skald enchanter build 'cause much like the quarterstaff of the war mage it applies a +2 to the dc o' all spells cast by the wielder. build an azata bard to take advantage favorable magic and incredible might in addition to the spell buffs azata gets to attributes and mind affecting spells is something we ain't seen, but it looks more than viable if nowhere near best evar. the advantage o' bard is am able to take a couple level dips w/o sacrificing much whereas the skald capstone ability would be a major sacrifice. bard  has more skills too.  dunno.  the skald capstone is really nice, and 'course the partywide intelligence and charisma boosts from a court poet is exceeding impressive if you got a caster party.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Did Through the Ashes over a few days. It's a small adventure with a big ol too be continued at the end, probably with the next wave of DLC that's going to drop. There's a weird health mechanic for survivors (not the party) where you need to feed them potions or scrolls if they get "hurt", somewhat unintuitively Remove Disease is what you need while Restoration doesn't do too much. Other than that there ain't much to say, other than it's Owlcat Finder with ****tier gear than normal.

[Gorth]

12 hours ago, Gromnir said:

am suspecting you identified the purpose o' the augmented workers. the natural reaction o' most not psychotic gamers is to live and let live, 'cause you never know when random acts o' murder is gonna mess up a quest. at a basic and fundamental level, games is teaching tools, and crpgs have taught you to attack everything hostile and speak to every named npc, but to avoid wanton mayhem unless you know there is gonna be no negative repercussions.

I know this was a reply to IC, but I did notice how the otherwise neutral workers got all upset when Sosiel used his aoe heal. While I didn't think much about it at the time, I'll check out pillar of light as a weapon against playful darkness. I hope I won't need to rest too many times down here, because corruption levels have already surpassed '1'

Bastard queen shut the door and threw the key away after shoving me through the doorway. Of course i completely missed the point, that he (playful darkness) may be optional at this point. That would just be so atypical to my current experience with the game (so far)

The game does bring back memories of BG and BG2. Sort of what I imagine a modern remake of those oldies would look like. Also memories of the sheer amount of time sunk into it

I still keep Finnean as my barbarians weapon (greatsword) and I noticed he has "grown" stat wise. I don't know if that is level dependent or story progress dependent as I find out more and more about Finnean's background before he became all sharp and edgy.

[Gorth]

Split off from previous thread...

 

[Gromnir]

27 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I know this was a reply to IC, but I did notice how the otherwise neutral workers got all upset when Sosiel used his aoe heal. While I didn't think much about it at the time, I'll check out pillar of light as a weapon against playful darkness. I hope I won't need to rest too many times down here, because corruption levels have already surpassed '1'

 

keep in mind a major advantage o' pillars is you may cast them outside of combat.

keep in mind a major disadvantage o' pillars is if you cast 'em outside o' combat, you need to find a way to make certain your undead and/or sunshine vulnerable foes enter your pillars. 

can get kinda silly with pillars if you have heightened spell or other metamagic. cast a s-ton previous to combat and then once combat starts sosiel may continue casting via the rod o' devouring lust... 'cause the rod won't work on the pillars cast pre combat. 

others will observe the safest route to defeating playful is to set up a meat shield o' summons and animal companions and then cast creeping dooms with daeran or camellia (and even nenio if you used loremaster to add creeping doom to her spell list) while making certain you got a mark of justice from seelah on playful. those others who recommend creeping doom is correct. 

the reason why am personal using fear and pillars is 'cause we loathe camellia and chances are we don't have daeran in a party. sosiel has domains, so daeran don't get much attention in our wotr runs though is plenty o' good reasons to have both daeran and sosiel simultaneous in a party. our refusal to work with camellia is a real shame as she is easily one o' the most useful companions in wotr, particular once you provide her with the metal curse. 

HA! Good Fun!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

4 hours ago, Gorth said:

I know this was a reply to IC, but I did notice how the otherwise neutral workers got all upset when Sosiel used his aoe heal. While I didn't think much about it at the time, I'll check out pillar of light as a weapon against playful darkness. I hope I won't need to rest too many times down here, because corruption levels have already surpassed '1'

Bastard queen shut the door and threw the key away after shoving me through the doorway. Of course i completely missed the point, that he (playful darkness) may be optional at this point. That would just be so atypical to my current experience with the game (so far)

The game does bring back memories of BG and BG2. Sort of what I imagine a modern remake of those oldies would look like. Also memories of the sheer amount of time sunk into it

I still keep Finnean as my barbarians weapon (greatsword) and I noticed he has "grown" stat wise. I don't know if that is level dependent or story progress dependent as I find out more and more about Finnean's background before he became all sharp and edgy.

Finnean gets a couple of upgrades, I think it's tied to story but I'm using a mod that upgrades him by chapter and lets you choose some basic abilities to give him. 

Anyways.....planning a Lich build and I've noticed they can* get hit with a Permanent debuff (Sold Youth) that does -2 to physical stats, -10 speed, and apparently a 20% miss chance. I don't care about the speed because I'm going mounted and (I think) the Str/Dex get made up with a certain ability Liches get, but the 20% miss chance is pretty bad for anything that makes attack rolls, which this character will do a lot. I'm going to test it later tonight, but can anyone confirm the 20% thing?

*see spoiler

Spoiler

I'm aware you can turn down bone dad's request you rapidly age yourself, but I want to check out his ending slides and for that you've got to do everything he wants.

 

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, Gorth said:

Split off from previous thread...

the thing to recall 'bout finnean is that at your current upgrade stage, he is a +3 brilliant energy, heartseeker weapon, yes?  is swell unless you attack an enemy which has no heart. attack incorporeal or golems and get a message that the weapon passes through harmlessly is gonna be disconcerting if you are unaware o' the limited handicap o' brilliant energy.

HA! Good Fun!

ps brilliant energy is not s'posed to harm any undead but it were at one point. am not sure if has been fixed. am recalling finnean were worthless 'gainst sinful sinew but he could hit a few other undead. playful darkness is a deathsnatcher which is technical a monstrous humanoid, so curiously both pillars of life and finnean is effective 'gainst it.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Gromnir

[ShadySands]

Just about finished with Drezen on my EE game. So far I've only seen a few differences and some of them may have been added earlier,

Spoiler

like some expanded discussions with Cam which I wouldn't have seen because I usually kick her in Kenabres or kill her in Drezen, but rarely speak to her.

Now I'm at the mythic path choice and I'm stuck because I kinda want to go Aeon > Devil but I heard a lot of the EE Devil stuff has been dropped. Also considering Lich but I've always hated how that path ends. I've never finished the game as a Trickster, I don't think, so maybe I can give that a shot but it doesn't really fit my character. New mythic paths when, Owlcat or modders?

[Gromnir]

18 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Also considering Lich but I've always hated how that path ends. 

at some point am gonna do a lich --> gold dragon for the redemption route, 'cause am uninterested in finishing our previous lich and am curious how the redemption thing works. haven't spoiled self. 

am not a fan o' trickster. is arguably the most op o' the mythics, though all o' the mythics is potential op with the right build. got far enough into a trickster run to know am unlikely to finish trickster. 

am considering playing a few o' our past characters from act v... and maybe even act iii. aeon and azata is most likely getting second looks.

we did make a new ee dirge bard like we mentioned a few posts earlier. am not a fan o' bards in wotr as am thinking skalds is superior, which ironic is precise why am going with dirge bard. wanna convince self a class we don't ordinarily approve can be fun and capable. no animal companion though. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 4, 2022 by Gromnir

[InsaneCommander]

Found a room in Blackwater full of augmented workers. I closed the doors to prevent them from backstabbing me and moved on. After performing brain surgery in another guy, I decided that I'll come back there later and put everyone out of their misery.

The augmented demons are harder. I didn’t want the Succubus charming characters, so I used Grease and Web everywhere and kept my party from moving. Dazzling Display made the enemies ran away every single time, but I think that only gave them time to regenerate. Aru wasn’t enough to kill them once they fell, so I run out of Nenio’s electricity spells. I started using scrolls. I even had a Shocking Grasp, one of those long forgotten items in the inventory. I had been preparing Chain Lightning scrolls for a while and still have 9. But I may have to rest depending on how many battles are still left.

Ember deciphering the technology with Use Magic Device is hilarious. A homeless girl in a medieval world is an IT specialist. Maybe she had a Numerian iPad when growing up?

Oh, and somebody finally commented on the recurring line “Everything is clear now.”

[xzar_monty]

I decided to start a new game on the Enhanced Edition. A question: how do people handle the Shield Maze and other early areas on Unfair difficulty? What I mean is that there is hardly any room for failure / error / bad luck on the very early XP levels, and if your enemies are a lot stronger than you are and you generally don't have any equipment or tactical options to rely on, you're likely to be in trouble. I'm playing on Core, and even that's hard enough at the start. Do players on Unfair just reload an awful lot?

Like, how do you deal with that Water Elemental on Unfair when you're at level 2?

@Gromnir, any insight on this?

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

 

@Gromnir, any insight on this?

can't speak for others. the only way am doing the entire shield maze on unfair is at gunpoint. we do boss battles unfair, just to say we did so, but am not seeing the fun in an entire unfair run. 

make sure you got a leopard companion, 'cause is the only critter capable of tanking the water elemental at that level, even with camellia spamming protective luck. fighting defensive, your leopard may have as high as +30 ac ad you got a blur potion as well. add as many animal companions as possible. you do need to get lucky with attacks, but the chances o' even the unfair elemental hitting a fully buffed leopard is poor and with camellia doing nothing but spamming protective luck chances are you win if you can do enough damage before blur, shield of faith prayer and other buffs wear off.

also, do anything possible to boost ab... which is obvious but much more difficult to pull off in practice. charging is good but only characters with reach weapons may charge multiple times 'cause you don't wanna provide the water elemental with attacks of opportunity.

and yeah, reloads happen with hosilla and the water elemental. is an unfun way to play the game from our pov, but there is a "cheevo" so some folks will suffer through the slog which is a full unfair run.

is likely others ways to take out the unfair water elemental, but for us leopard tanking is key. have also done a very improbable kite thing, but were more luck than anything else which had us survive.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[majestic]

2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Like, how do you deal with that Water Elemental on Unfair when you're at level 2?

The easiest way that is pretty much always doable (at least pre-EE, no idea about any changes) is to turn off XP sharing until you have a full party, reach level three in the Shield Maze*, give Lann a Divine Hunter level and pick the Leopard companion. Buff it with Camellia, send it to facetank the Water Elemental and win.

edit 2: To explain, with reaching level three on Lann, you can give him the Leopard and Boon Companion, pushing the Leopard to level three. That means it can have Doge and Diehard, making it possible to withstand more punishment from the Large Water Elemental. You can (well, should, I suppose) cast Enlarge Person on your party to make everything have reach and hit more easily and harder. Charge in, pull them out, charge back in, as charge gives a nice chunk of extra AB. Use Glaives and the Masterwork Greatsword for the 1.5 extra damage multiplier to get through the DR 5.

Other ways are kiting, because it is damned slow, or having a CHA to AC double dip MC - that way you can potentially push your armor class with buffs to a point where it's possible to withstand the attacks provided you can stomach reloading a couple of times. It has 'only' 17 attack bonus, but 37 AC is really hard to reach (more like impossible), so you need as many debuffs on it as you can make stick. Also, of course, do the entire Shield Maze before taking on the Elemental for all the scrolls and potions.

*One of the things that is very noticable on Unfair is how many more enemies there are in the game. Combined with hogging all the experience for yourself (it is pointless not to until you can get out of the prologue and add party members or mercenaries), it provides a much needed level boost. That is even more of a reason why simply increasing the difficulty to Unfair for boss fights is not indicative of how a full Unfair run plays.

That circular room in Blackwater that @Gorth had problems with - IIRC on Unfair that had three times the amount of demons. With much, much better stats.

edit: Ah, ninja'ed.

Edited October 4, 2022 by majestic