The All Things Political Topic - A politician needs the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month, and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn’t happen

[Gorth]

@BruceVC let's look at your question then... would people who identify themselves (as opposed to those labeled as such by e.g. Murdoch media) commit crime, or did in fact commit crime? Would you label BLM as a group of criminals if say 50% of them committed crimes? 10%? 0.05%?

 

Would you hold politicians to the same standards? Are they all criminals if say 10% of them commit crimes? Should say Proud Boys be forcefully dismantled and locked up if more than 25% of their members have a criminal history? Should all Republicans go to jail if one of them committed a crime?

 

I honestly don't see the point of the question unless it's to further some as of yet unknown narrative (or bias confirmation).

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, majestic said:

BruceVC and his thoughts about unions and violently breaking up protests.

"Unions ruin the economy."

"Sometimes governments have no choice but to violently end strikes."

"People on strike thought they were impervious to bullets so they got violent." and also "Affected shareholder values, so it was necessary to break up the strike."

Nothing hasty about your judgement. Don't let the old posts fool you, just because BruceVC stopped using there and is now typing their all the time, it's still the same poster.

I originally made a joke on their being a posessive pronoun. The Agent Smith showed up and asked me why I persist, and I had no real answer. I bet he'll come around the corner and will threaten to terminate this post too.

Can I tell you what always surprises me. That you still read my posts, care about my grammar and you even comment sometimes to the point where you prepared to  spend time finding old posts of mine..that effort is nice to see 

I dont really do that with your posts but like I said with Alan I always enjoy debates and you and I have had some interesting chats. So lets turn over a new leaf and lets start engaging constructively ...I will always try to respond if I can 

But the most important consideration  if we are going to debate is we are not going to agree on everything. Its okay to  disagree on things. Who wants on echo-chamber anyway 

Oh and something you and @Gorth should find interesting, a few people on Codex have also noticed my misusage of their\there and commented so you not alone and I always appreciate the constructive criticism and how some people respond to it is hilarious 

 

 

[BruceVC]

15 minutes ago, Gorth said:

@BruceVC let's look at your question then... would people who identify themselves (as opposed to those labeled as such by e.g. Murdoch media) commit crime, or did in fact commit crime? Would you label BLM as a group of criminals if say 50% of them committed crimes? 10%? 0.05%?

 

Would you hold politicians to the same standards? Are they all criminals if say 10% of them commit crimes? Should say Proud Boys be forcefully dismantled and locked up if more than 25% of their members have a criminal history? Should all Republicans go to jail if one of them committed a crime?

 

I honestly don't see the point of the question unless it's to further some as of yet unknown narrative (or bias confirmation).

These are good questions which is where I was going with Alan and I dont have all the answers but I can respond around research I have done. Also I keep making the same points around my ideological views, I believe exactly what I say. I dont have a hidden agenda and we all guilty of confirmation bias at times. Thats part of the human psyche, who doesnt like people agreeing with us?

What I would appreciate if you could be clear  about what you think my agenda\narrative is because I honestly dont know what people are talking about because I say exactly what I believe albeit with diplomacy so I dont offend people. And I cant respond if I dont know what you mean by "unknown narrative " or similar questions 

But going back to your broader point which is " what defines a legitimate labelling of  any protest as criminal " 

So their are 4 main  types of people who participate in BLM protests. They are 

• well meaning ideologues who believe in racial justice, protest peacefully and are committed to the positive outcomes of BLM 
• well meaning people who do believe in racial justice and will support most BLM protests and protest peacefully but they not deeply committed 
• people who  believe in racial justice and  some of the BLM objectives but will damage property, burn cars and commit other acts of criminality
• people who say they believe in racial justice but use the protests to loot and commit acts of criminality in the same communities they claim to care about

The first two groups are not guilty of any criminal behavior but the last two are. So you cant say " all BLM protests are about criminal behavior " because the majority of people dont commit crimes during protests. But you also cant say " their is no criminality during BLM protests " because their are clear cases of this from the last 2 groups

And this applies to all other examples you mentioned that include politicians and groups like the Proud Boys, individual who commit crimes must be arrested but we shouldn't generalize and label a legitimate political party like the GOP as criminal just because some of their members have been linked to corruption or have broken the law 

Unless the group is a known criminal syndicate like Mexican cartels, The Cribs and the Bloods,  Neo-Nazi groups or the Russian mob and these groups can be linked to RICO. Then you can generalize

So in summary, their are acts of looting and criminality in some of the BLM protests. We shouldnt deny this but that doesnt mean BLM is criminal movement. I hope this makes sense?

 

 

[Gorth]

33 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

 who doesnt like people agreeing with us?

I don't

 

A bit busy today, so I might not give you a better until (i.e. more than two lines or a clever remark) later today or tomorrow

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I don't

 

A bit busy todayP[, so I might not give you a better until (i.e. more than two lines or a clever remark) later today or tomorrow

Please do when you have time because this is a worthwhile debate 

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

You can stop right there. 

Hurlshot ....tsk tsk....you failing the " Californian liberal code " because you potentially saying something that could offend and hurt my feelings 

Thats not very nice, what are all the other liberals going to think? Remember its always about the feeeeeeelzzz

 

 

[Chairchucker]

Kinda seems odd to single out the BLM marches as being a problem if it's just that there's a non zero number of criminals in their number like literally every other demographic on earth.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Chairchucker said:

Kinda seems odd to single out the BLM marches as being a problem if it's just that there's a non zero number of criminals in their number like literally every other demographic on earth.

But Im not just singling out BLM, my view is consistent with all protests and civil disobedience where criminality exists. For example I said the Canadian truckers protest was unacceptable and those truckers blocking national highways should be arrested. Which again "surprised " people because Im a WASP and "why am I  not supporting my fellow WASP "

And to answer that question is the same as my view on BLM, I am a WASP but I dont support anyone who breaks the law.

My views are very simple to understand 

Edited June 15, 2022 by BruceVC

[Chairchucker]

So are you just gonna name every single demographic and say 'we better keep an eye on them'?

[majestic]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Can I tell you what always surprises me. That you still read my posts, care about my grammar and you even comment sometimes to the point where you prepared to  spend time finding old posts of mine..that effort is nice to see 

I think you have the wrong impression of the amount of effort it takes me to find old posts. Finding and posting the links took roughly three minutes.  

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I dont really do that with your posts but like I said with Alan I always enjoy debates and you and I have had some interesting chats. So lets turn over a new leaf and lets start engaging constructively ...I will always try to respond if I can 

Thanks, but I'm afraid of Agent Smith.

[BruceVC]

21 minutes ago, Chairchucker said:

So are you just gonna name every single demographic and say 'we better keep an eye on them'?

Sorry I dont know what you mean, can you clarify?

[Gorth]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

What I would appreciate if you could be clear  about what you think my agenda\narrative is because I honestly dont know what people are talking about because I say exactly what I believe albeit with diplomacy so I dont offend people. And I cant respond if I dont know what you mean by "unknown narrative " or similar questions

You've posted enough over the years to recognize a "pattern". Now how people interpret those patterns may vary. I'm sure there are at least 42 different opinions about what kind of person I am. But you come across as someone with an almost primordial fear, not of fire, but of anything that may hurt bottom lines on balance sheets, to the exclusion of all else. Somehow "the far left" has become your bogeyman and you see it everywhere, imagined or not ( because sometimes they *are* out to get you after all). That, and the obsession with BLM as the new Illuminati, which has reached a level where I'm sure it will be a forum meme for a long time still

The above mindset affects a lot of posts about politics and social issues.... influencing the tone, nuances, choice of words, choice of real world examples, the direction you want a debate to head etc. It's fine to be opinionated though, Odin knows, I sure am

But the conversations seems to always repeat themselves. You love the capitalist world and dislike anything that threatens to destabilize it (that is at least my impression from your posts). Some of us (that means myself and the voices in my head) are less enthusiastic about a number of aspects of western values and would love to see changes (anarchist on deck) in areas of responsibility and accountability. Especially the latter.

 

To answer your original question, the use any agreeable answer to throw back at people and claim "BLM are criminals and people here agree with me"....

 

[BruceVC]

18 minutes ago, Gorth said:

You've posted enough over the years to recognize a "pattern". Now how people interpret those patterns may vary. I'm sure there are at least 42 different opinions about what kind of person I am. But you come across as someone with an almost primordial fear, not of fire, but of anything that may hurt bottom lines on balance sheets, to the exclusion of all else. Somehow "the far left" has become your bogeyman and you see it everywhere, imagined or not ( because sometimes they *are* out to get you after all). That, and the obsession with BLM as the new Illuminati, which has reached a level where I'm sure it will be a forum meme for a long time still

The above mindset affects a lot of posts about politics and social issues.... influencing the tone, nuances, choice of words, choice of real world examples, the direction you want a debate to head etc. It's fine to be opinionated though, Odin knows, I sure am

But the conversations seems to always repeat themselves. You love the capitalist world and dislike anything that threatens to destabilize it (that is at least my impression from your posts). Some of us (that means myself and the voices in my head) are less enthusiastic about a number of aspects of western values and would love to see changes (anarchist on deck) in areas of responsibility and accountability. Especially the latter.

 

To answer your original question, the use any agreeable answer to throw back at people and claim "BLM are criminals and people here agree with me"....

 

Thanks for explaining, now I understand what you mean. 

And some of what you saying is correct. I am opposed to old school socialism\Communism or how countries like Cuba and Venezuela are governed and the idea of forced nationalization by any government 

And I absolutely believe all listed companies must be profitable or they will collapse or have to restructure 

I dont have an issue with the role of banks in all our economies so thats also true

And I realize I have created the wrong impression because I am not just concerned with left wing extremism but all extremism

But their is no reason we cant have debates on these topics and sometimes agree to disagree. We dont have to automatically dislike each other because we  dont have the same ideological views because you  will find many things we all have in common. This is one of the main factors that feeds the unhelpful Culture wars in the US and other countries like SA and the UK 

One of my  concerns in this era of debate  is  where sometimes there is  intolerance and assumptions made around opinions that are different to ours. Lets ask what people mean instead of jumping to conclusions and assuming people are racist or fascist  because we dont agree or are not sure what the person believes 

But thanks for responding because now I understand 

[Gromnir]

GOP commission refuses to certify New Mexico primary vote

New Mexico’s secretary of state on Tuesday asked the state Supreme Court to order the Republican-led commission of rural Otero County to certify primary election results after it refused to do so over distrust of Dominion vote-tallying machines.

...

january 6 was so not the end of the insanity.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gfted1]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

But their is no reason we cant have debates on these topics and sometimes agree to disagree. We dont have to automatically dislike each other because we  dont have the same ideological views because you  will find many things we all have in common.

Ah, heres your problem BVC. You assume that other posters arent just qq-ing and bringing there biases into the conversation. Personally it gives me a good belly laugh.  

[HoonDing]

Never go full RPG Codex.

[Malcador]

1 minute ago, HoonDing said:

Never go full RPG Codex.

I think the mods will step in before we have people moaning about "globohomo" or the Jews.

[BruceVC]

7 minutes ago, Malcador said:

I think the mods will step in before we have people moaning about "globohomo" or the Jews.

Do you frequent Codex, whats your user name?

The ridiculous hyperbole from some Codex members about the globohomo global  control makes me laugh, I dont even know what people are suggesting most of the time. I just ignore it 

[Malcador]

33 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Do you frequent Codex, whats your user name?

Volourn

[alanschu]

13 hours ago, Gorth said:

Peace for our time!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61801682

After almost 50 years, Denmark and Canada has agreed to the terms of a peace treaty to end the war over Hans Island. Aka the "Whisky Wars"

Tl;dr; both countries would take turns sending in their navy to land troops, place a flag, a bottle of booze (Canadian Whisky and Danish Schnaps) and sometimes written notices, on the island... for 49 years.

 

"...Over the following 49 years, dozens of Canadians and Danes took part in the ritual and visitors to the island describe a sea of slightly tattered flags and notices."

 

I noticed that the two countries forces left the flags behind and only took the booze bottles as "war trophies" 

 

"The deal will be signed once both countries grant parliamentary approval and will see the island split along a naturally occurring cleft on the rocky outcrop, according to a deal published by the Danish foreign ministry on Tuesday.

Once signed off, Canada and Denmark will have established the world's longest maritime border at 3,882km."

 

I did get a kick out of this one piece of news lol.

I saw some people share that they are a bit sad that it happened as they enjoyed the updates hahahaha.

 

  

10 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

Kinda seems odd to single out the BLM marches as being a problem if it's just that there's a non zero number of criminals in their number like literally every other demographic on earth.

I remember when people were pointing out that Disney supported pedophiles in response to pushing back on Florida government suppressing speech in the classroom because there were a handful of people that used to work for Disney that had been convicted, while just handwaving away that Disney employes over 190,000 people. It shouldn't be particularly shocking if some of them ended up being trash bags.

It's funny given that in the last thread I was once accused of judging an entire population because of a subset when I suggested that a society's culture both influences, and is influenced by, the people within the society hahaha.

Edited June 15, 2022 by alanschu

[Malcador]

https://apnews.com/article/texas-united-states-odessa-climate-and-environment-0f9fbef57ee9bad74879b8e686ebfe97

Russia sabotaged the wrong Odessa

Edited June 15, 2022 by Malcador

[alanschu]

Police Officers entered a house at 5:30am looking for a missing teen. Claim that they tried knocking and ringing the doorbell but there was no answer, so they opted to enter. Questioned a kiddo in her bed. Unsurprisingly the RCMP supports the officers suggesting they did nothing wrong.

Even after being informed that the house didn't have a doorbell to ring, and that somehow the police did all these declarations and knocking that somehow woke no one up, including the family dog.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/rcmp-statement-mount-moriah-1.6483828

 

I understand that this could very well be benign (nothing irreversibly bad happened), but IMO it's a continuing trend of police forces not being up front about realities, misleading/lying about what happened presumably in a way to mitigate how bad it looks. Even if the police officers were not trying to cover their butts, it should serve as a reminder that police officers, like all human beings, are often have unreliable memories and are not particularly exceptional at recalling events even over regular citizens. Yet we continue to afford this institution a layer of trust that I feel is unearned, often times even culminating in media acting as stenographers of police accounts and the trust being implicitly evident and deserved.

IMO if an institution is seen as inherently trustworthy, yet also seen as beyond reproach and resistant to external evaluations, it's inevitable that it will be vulnerable to having people become a part of it (and promoted within) which undermines its efficacy and trustworthiness.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

It's a good rule of thumb to assume cops are lying in general and specifically that the first story they tell is a fabrication to present themselves in the best possible light.

[alanschu]

2 minutes ago, KP wants Blue Velvet said:

It's a good rule of thumb to assume cops are lying in general and specifically that the first story they tell is a fabrication to present themselves in the best possible light.

It really does seem to be the case I find.

It's interesting because I used to be more naturally supportive and inferred that it was typically a difficult job, with the aggravating circumstance that even if you're a victim no one is happy to see the police (i.e. they have some external event in their life that will make them feel primed to already be agitated). But then I learned that sometimes police officers indeed make mistakes, and our default state is that they are seen as more trustworthy than you or I and it became trivial to recognize how that can lead to abuse. And it's extra bad because it's abuse by an organization that is granted extraordinary powers, including often lethal force.

It's funny because I "get it." I feel that there is the implicit belief in trustworthiness because if you step back and say "we're giving these people, who are as (un)trustworthy as anyone else in society, extra privileges and protections" then I feel the natural response would be "whoa wait... why!?"

Although maybe I'm just being extra optimistic on that last point...

[Gromnir]

you folks are doing the same thing o' which you deride bruce and am suspecting you don't see the hypocrisy or inexplicable believe is different. 

HA! Good Fun!