Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Part 2

[Gromnir]

40 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

 

I don't care what many owlcat fans want, I want a better game. 

you want a different game, which is fair. 'course the fans, the folks paying owlcat, thinks wotr is the better game. 

HA! Good Fun!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, uuuhhii said:

alchemist and warpriest can not be salvage with some minor errata at this point

after reading inventor playtest it was obvious alchemist should be a subclass of inventor

unstable trait is so fitting for alchemist

but that is too late now

though alchemist may fit better in a party of 5 control by 1 player in crpg than actual pnp game control by 1 player

it is difficult for a player to do nothing but provide mutagen healing potion and bomb for fighter to double throw

but for a companion in video game to provide all this and do very little in combat would be acceptable

I wouldn't compare the Warpriest doctrine to the Alchemist. Warpriest doctrine is not a good divine gish as the 1e class was, but it's good enough early on and later game serves well enough as a front line support. You can justify a Warpriest as a support caster for the fortitude saves and armor to cast heal or buffs close to the front lines. It's obviously not as good as the Druid or Bard though, and I'd say Divine in general needs some love in 2e.

Competitively it's very hard to justify the Alchemist in a party over almost anything else. It is very much an nth wheel, and even then why not take another caster or martial or skill monkey? Item bonuses to skill checks are great, but you can always buy alchemical items or even craft them with a skill feat and some downtime.

5 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

you want a different game, which is fair. 'course the fans, the folks paying owlcat, thinks wotr is the better game. 

HA! Good Fun!

I've payed Owlcat for the game, as has uuuhhii (I assume), and at least a few folks on the 2e subreddit who came away wanting a 2e game. I don't claim to speak for every purchaser or player of WotR, but I doubt everyone who bought and/or played the game did it solely or even mostly due to the appeal of the Pathfinder 1e ruleset with Owlcat's ability and stat inflation modifications. I'd assume that at least a few people bought it for the same reason I did, because party-based crpgs are sadly few and far between and that within bounded satisfaction WotR is good enough.

If Owlcat did another 1e adventure path I'd probably buy it and play it 6 - 12 months after release like I did with WotR, but I'd much prefer a 2e or Starfinder game by them or someone else than a videogame version of Hell's Rebels or Return of the Runelords.

[uuuhhii]

28 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

I wouldn't compare the Warpriest doctrine to the Alchemist. Warpriest doctrine is not a good divine gish as the 1e class was, but it's good enough early on and later game serves well enough as a front line support. You can justify a Warpriest as a support caster for the fortitude saves and armor to cast heal or buffs close to the front lines. It's obviously not as good as the Druid or Bard though, and I'd say Divine in general needs some love in 2e.

Competitively it's very hard to justify the Alchemist in a party over almost anything else. It is very much an nth wheel, and even then why not take another caster or martial or skill monkey? Item bonuses to skill checks are great, but you can always buy alchemical items or even craft them with a skill feat and some downtime.

I've payed Owlcat for the game, as has uuuhhii (I assume), and at least a few folks on the 2e subreddit who came away wanting a 2e game. I don't claim to speak for every purchaser or player of WotR, but I doubt everyone who bought and/or played the game did it solely or even mostly due to the appeal of the Pathfinder 1e ruleset with Owlcat's ability and stat inflation modifications. I'd assume that at least a few people bought it for the same reason I did, because party-based crpgs are sadly few and far between and that within bounded satisfaction WotR is good enough.

If Owlcat did another 1e adventure path I'd probably buy it and play it 6 - 12 months after release like I did with WotR, but I'd much prefer a 2e or Starfinder game by them or someone else than a videogame version of Hell's Rebels or Return of the Runelords.

true that warpriest are functional as healbot as cloister and with better defence

a level 11 alchemist can provide enough mutagen to give entire party juggernaut or resolve as situation demand

party without alchemist need a much higher level to afford that

still it doesn't seems fun for a player to do little other than serving drinks for other players

Edited September 28, 2021 by uuuhhii

[Achilles]

3 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

I've payed Owlcat for the game

Really?

[Sarex]

44 minutes ago, Achilles said:

Really?

I mean... It's not like you can't not pay for it...

[Gromnir]

5 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

I've payed Owlcat for the game, as has uuuhhii (I assume), and at least a few folks on the 2e subreddit who came away wanting a 2e game. I don't claim to speak for every purchaser or player of WotR, but I doubt everyone who bought and/or played the game did it solely or even mostly due to the appeal of the Pathfinder 1e ruleset with Owlcat's ability and stat inflation modifications. I'd assume that at least a few people bought it for the same reason I did, because party-based crpgs are sadly few and far between and that within bounded satisfaction WotR is good enough.

If Owlcat did another 1e adventure path I'd probably buy it and play it 6 - 12 months after release like I did with WotR, but I'd much prefer a 2e or Starfinder game by them or someone else than a videogame version of Hell's Rebels or Return of the Runelords.

*sigh*

nope, not "everyone" bought wotr for the pathfinder 1e ruleset, but if you didn't realize, especial with the addition o' mythic, you would get more o' what you appear to dislike o' the pathfinder ruleset, that is clear on you for failure to notice what were so patent obvious. alien from another planet goes into MacDonalds and buys a big mac. our alien friend has an excuse if she/he/it is surprised by ___________ regarding big macs. buy a second big mac expecting different result? you bought wotr, like all the people who bought wotr, and that multitude includes the people we referenced in the playful darkness thread. you clear bought the wrong game. kingmaker exists. wotr were in development for a considerable amount o' time and were no secret it would be what it is.  

have personal been critical o' the shortcomings o' pathfinder here and elsewhere. have lamented the bloat, particular at high levels. have criticized how unintuitive and nonsensical is the rules. have marveled at how many people defend crpg anachronisms without any seeming self awareness they is being irrational. have pointed out how obvious it were that add more archetypes and mythic would necessarily increase bloat as developers had to deal with an increasing unwieldy and unbalanced game. however, our disappointment with pathfinder as implemented in two games by owlcat doesn't change fact we knew exact what owlcat were offering with wotr and nobody has any right to feign surprise that wotr would be what it is... and we most definite ain't so obtuse we would fail to recognize that if wotr is commercial successful, then there is little motivation to build a "better" mousetrap. criticize the bugs and the writing but owlcat did a good job, for the most part, o' implementing 1e pathfinder, which is exact what many players wanted and is why they believe wotr is a better game. 

owlcat is not obtuse. owlcat ain't gonna make a game for everyone when they know they got a devoted fanbase o' 1e pathfinder fans.  when the question o' 2e pathfinder came up multiple times in developer walkthroughs o' the wotr beta, those developers admitted 2e pathfinder were not being considered for a future product from owlcat. why would they? 'cause kp wants better?

HA! Good Fun!

[xzar_monty]

6 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

I'd assume that at least a few people bought it for the same reason I did, because party-based crpgs are sadly few and far between and that within bounded satisfaction WotR is good enough.

I also think this is quite probable. I have a major soft spot for RtwP-based fantasy cRPGs and let's face it, there aren't many of them around. The good ones that appear to have stood the test of time are, for me, BG2, PoE and Deadfire. P:K is almost there, but much of the writing and Owlcat's blatant cheating mean that it's not quite up there. However, in my view it's a lot better than Icewind Dale (poor AI, no party interaction) or NWN (bad story, awful 3D).

With WotR, I know I'll be getting an awful lot of cheese and an awful lot of terrible writing, but given the dearth of games in this genre, I'm up for it. I've played the game's prologue (so to speak, meaning the first maze and up to the city), which has made me roll my eyes quite a bit, but I'm still up for it, after a few months. Maybe very early 2022.

Now, if only somebody wrote a RtwP-based fantasy cRPG on the level of Disco Elysium when it comes to story development and all that, I'd be happy to pay twice the price for it. It's almost certainly not going to happen, though. (But in case someone wants to hire me... )

[uuuhhii]

2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

I also think this is quite probable. I have a major soft spot for RtwP-based fantasy cRPGs and let's face it, there aren't many of them around. The good ones that appear to have stood the test of time are, for me, BG2, PoE and Deadfire. P:K is almost there, but much of the writing and Owlcat's blatant cheating mean that it's not quite up there. However, in my view it's a lot better than Icewind Dale (poor AI, no party interaction) or NWN (bad story, awful 3D).

With WotR, I know I'll be getting an awful lot of cheese and an awful lot of terrible writing, but given the dearth of games in this genre, I'm up for it. I've played the game's prologue (so to speak, meaning the first maze and up to the city), which has made me roll my eyes quite a bit, but I'm still up for it, after a few months. Maybe very early 2022.

Now, if only somebody wrote a RtwP-based fantasy cRPG on the level of Disco Elysium when it comes to story development and all that, I'd be happy to pay twice the price for it. It's almost certainly not going to happen, though. (But in case someone wants to hire me... )

many player have to struggle through combat and awful management minigame to get to wacky joke and actual dialogue choice

thousands of feat and class feature create nothing but obstacle for player want to have fun

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

5 hours ago, Achilles said:

Really?

Yes. I backed it on KS enough to look at EA, but I had some stuff going on that made playing videogames for very long hard.  It didn't help that Skald and Arcanist were the first two classes I picked, and I ran into issues with them right out of the gate. The furtherst I got in beta was to the water elemental, which managed to tpk me in tb. Before that, the hardest enemy was doors.

2 hours ago, Gromnir said:

*sigh*

You seem interested in having a conversation that has little to do with anything I've posted. I was agreeing with another poster on a preference for 2e vs 1e in a hypothetical videogame. That is it. I do not care about sales figures, fanbases, or feasibility of 2e vs 1e and have no desire to debate them.

8 hours ago, uuuhhii said:

still it doesn't seems fun for a player to do little other than serving drinks for other players

Oh yeah. In a CRPG where you've already got most of the roles filled out and you can select stuff as a party manager it's got the potential to shine, but it would be awful to main and would probably only get carted out when you knew checks would be a major issue and spellcasting couldn't fix it.

The class still needs an overhaul though. 

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

I also think this is quite probable.

Off hand and counting Early Acess I can think of 3 party based CRPGs games between the release of Kingmaker and WotR. Wasteland 3, BG3, and Solasta. Even assuming you liked all 3 of those, the (sub)genre doesn't really produce many games these days so you take what you can. I think WotR will be like Kingmaker, pretty good once most of the bugs are ironed out and the Call of the Wild mod is introduced, but cheesey as hell and far from ideal.

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Off hand and counting Early Acess I can think of 3 party based CRPGs games between the release of Kingmaker and WotR. Wasteland 3, BG3, and Solasta.

All turn-based, so I'm going to give them a pass. Turn-based is the only sensible way of playing PnP, you know, with friends around a table, but I don't see any good reason to use it in a computer game.

Edited September 28, 2021 by xzar_monty

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

You seem interested in having a conversation that has little to do with anything I've posted. I was agreeing with another poster on a preference for 2e vs 1e in a hypothetical videogame. That is it. I do not care about sales figures, fanbases, or feasibility of 2e vs 1e and have no desire to debate them.

you seemed quite interested in having the conversation as you replied multiple times.  nevertheless, is kinda common for us to face the , "you aren't responsive" nonsense when a poster runs out o' arguments or realizes they never had much reason to defend a position in the first place. and if you don't wanna debate the issues you raised, you is never gonna convince anybody that doing your way would make for a "better" game.  surely wouldn't be able to convince owlcat with that kinda silliness... but you don't care 'bout any o' that, so there, yes? 

am not liking 1e pathfinder and the bloat which necessarily accompanies such a system, particular in a crpg where there is no gm to reign in the impulses o' players. however, am not so arrogant as to tell the many folks here and elsewhere who very much like pathfinder 1e that a switch to 2e, or something else, is warranted 'cause would make for a "better" game. not take much effort to scroll up a page or two and see multiple honest and intelligent people proclaim the pathfinder games as their favorite (or near favorite) crpgs, and tell 'em they is wrong for liking. that said, we do agree that you trying to debate with such folks and tell 'em that they is wrong would be undesirable... and foolish.

HA! Good Fun!

[Achilles]

7 hours ago, Sarex said:

I mean... It's not like you can't not pay for it...

2 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

Yes. I backed it on KS

I see. Well, apparently shame on me for not making it explicit that my offer for free keys was for people who didn't already have the game.

Not cool man.

[Gromnir]

3 minutes ago, Achilles said:

I see. Well, apparently shame on me for not making it explicit that my offer for free keys was for people who didn't already have the game.

Not cool man.

being charitable means you are eventual gonna get scammed. is those kinda people no matter the social or economic strata, regardless o' race, creed, color. 

hopeful this lesson doesn't discourage you from future acts o' goodwill.

HA! Good Fun!

[kanisatha]

Well, WotC just announced the next version of D&D is to be released in 2024 (though still unclear if it will be 6e or 5.5e), so maybe Pathfinder will also move to 3e, in which case it would make sense for Owlcat to skip 2e.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

51 minutes ago, Achilles said:

I see. Well, apparently shame on me for not making it explicit that my offer for free keys was for people who didn't already have the game.

Not cool man.

??? I've never responded to free key offer for this game. The only free game I've gotten from a user on here was from ShadySands like 6 years ago.

You did tell me about mythic Path mechanics in messages.

57 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

surely wouldn't be able to convince owlcat with that kinda silliness

I don't think Owlcat browses this forum and my investment in a 2e videogame is limited to stating a preference.

[uuuhhii]

1 minute ago, kanisatha said:

Well, WotC just announced the next version of D&D is to be released in 2024 (though still unclear if it will be 6e or 5.5e), so maybe Pathfinder will also move to 3e, in which case it would make sense for Owlcat to skip 2e.

3e will be very unlikely

base of  pathfinder 2e function too well

even with the slight bloat apg and som bring

most likely stuff like high jump swim climb action and alchemist warpriest witch will get a 2.5 treatment

[Gromnir]

1 minute ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

??? I've never responded to free key offer for this game. The only free game I've gotten from a user on here was from ShadySands like 6 years ago.

You did tell me about mythic Path mechanics in messages.

I don't think Owlcat browses this forum and my investment in a 2e videogame is limited to stating a preference.

guess you weren't done after all.

*chuckle*

this is all just gamer opinions, so state such axiomatic is transparent facile. if you now choose not to defend your opinion, for reals, that is your choice. 

HA! Good Fun!

[InsaneCommander]

12 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

If Owlcat did another 1e adventure path I'd probably buy it and play it 6 - 12 months after release like I did with WotR, but I'd much prefer a 2e or Starfinder game by them or someone else than a videogame version of Hell's Rebels or Return of the Runelords.

You already played it 6-12 months after release?You are not microwaving bananas at home, are you?

It seems Owlcat hired a Sci-Fi writer, so people are speculating their next game will be either Starfinder or Iron Gods.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

3 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

You are not microwaving bananas at home, are you?

Yes.

[InsaneCommander]

You would think that optional dangerous encounters would be avoided in the Last Azlanti competition:

Spoiler

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

4 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

You would think that optional dangerous encounters would be avoided in the Last Azlanti competition:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The Water Elemental still tpks lmao.

[InsaneCommander]

26 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

The Water Elemental still tpks lmao.

On normal it is kind of easy. I had to rest first and I think somebody died, but I defeated it on my first try.

[xzar_monty]

Defeating it and then receiving all of 34 XP (or somesuch ridiculous amount) feels like a major post-battle insult, though. Makes no sense at all, that.

[ShadySands]

It's a bit jarring when they give you so little XP in the early game only to bury under a pile of XP later on

 

[HoonDing]

can you kill Iomedae