Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Part 2

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

It's a bit jarring when they give you so little XP in the early game only to bury under a pile of XP later on

 

Reminds me of the combat xp grind in kingmaker and then leveling off of skill checks.

[xzar_monty]

38 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

It's a bit jarring when they give you so little XP in the early game only to bury under a pile of XP later on

 

Oh, so there's that, too. Heck, some of these design choices beggar belief.

But to be fair, so did some design choices in PoE. Like: removing XP gains from battles but still filling the outdoor areas with trash mob fights. What were they there for? Absolute waste of time, that's what.

[uuuhhii]

15 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Oh, so there's that, too. Heck, some of these design choices beggar belief.

But to be fair, so did some design choices in PoE. Like: removing XP gains from battles but still filling the outdoor areas with trash mob fights. What were they there for? Absolute waste of time, that's what.

most map in poe was awful

with enemy there are time wasting combat

without enemy those are just empty square

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

It's a bit jarring when they give you so little XP in the early game only to bury under a pile of XP later on

 

is one o' those few recurring issues which has us sympathizing with developers. no right way to do it so far as we has seen in +20 years o' following these game developments. too little xp for late game conquests and people complain they were getting similar xp for killing a pack o' wolves as they did for the sub-boss near the end o' the game. most rational approach is to exorcise the per kill and per action xp, but a significant % o' gamers will argue, quite vocal, that being treated like a skinner box participant is part o' the ineffable fun o' crpgs-- need the insular rewards to encourage further gameplay.

if there is a perfect balance or even a good solution, we ain't seen one... though am gonna admit that post poe, there were few complaints 'bout quest xp save that a few o' the cad nua bounties were indeed providing far too much xp. whatever else it were that stopped people from playing poe, the lack o' per kill xp became an afterthought hardly worthy o' mention.

xp rewards is kinda like "exploration"-- is no right amount.  put too much empty space or time fillers in game and many people complain. reduce the gaps 'tween encounters and quests and many people complain. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Achilles]

4 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

??? I've never responded to free key offer for this game.

You are correct. I didn't double check before posting and confused you with someone else.

I humbly apologize

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

13 minutes ago, Achilles said:

You are correct. I didn't double check before posting and confused you with someone else.

I humbly apologize

No worries, it got me to clean out my messages from 8 years ago so it all worked out fine.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Oh, so there's that, too. Heck, some of these design choices beggar belief.

But to be fair, so did some design choices in PoE. Like: removing XP gains from battles but still filling the outdoor areas with trash mob fights. What were they there for? Absolute waste of time, that's what.

...

then why fight? is a few o' the outdoor poe trash mobs we never bothered to engage, 'cause... why? you could go around. sneak past. whatever. the thing is, most crpg players is skinner box victims. kill everything on the map is part o' your conditioning.  

now a few o' the cad nua encounters were different; different in a bad way. developers admitted they never expected to need create so many levels, so they slapped a few o' the cad nua mega dungeon levels together w/o much effort or planning. no excuse. IF you are one o' the folks imagining obsidian promised a "spiritual successor" to bg, iwd AND ps:t simultaneous, then am s'posing you could look to iwd dragon's eye and see that cad nua were no worse for inexplicable placement o' trash mobs one after another after another. get your ie game nostalgia the hard way, eh? even so, unlike the wilderness maps and as 'posed to the dryford ruins or raedric's hold, there were no options for avoiding the trash in more than a couple cad nua dungeon levels. tedious.

am thinking the biggest problem with the few poe wilderness maps and the trash mobs is that players couldn't unlearn decades o' crpg behavior. you have been trained. if there is monsters on a map, you kill 'em for l00t and/or xp. in spite o' being told there were no reward for killing trash mobs on wilderness poe maps, people went ahead and killed everything anyway, 'cause maybe there were a special quest or l00t cache behind that next group of wicht. when the player discovered there were no reward for their effort, they blamed obsidian for putting the trash mob on the map.

*shrug*

HA! Good Fun!

 

[ShadySands]

I don't think there is a optimal solution to the XP/degenerate player problem. I tend to cheat or mod games to my liking but I don't expect most players want to be their own GM of sorts

The only thing I really like is complex systems with a lot of options which is why I like Pathfinder and older DnD games over PoE and BG3. I still haven't tried Solasta yet despite backing it so maybe their 5e is way better than Larian's. I've never played PnP so my entire knowledge of these systems is from how they've been adapted for video games. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

12 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

The only thing I really like is complex systems with a lot of options which is why I like Pathfinder and older DnD games over PoE and BG3. I still haven't tried Solasta yet despite backing it so maybe their 5e is way better than Larian's. I've never played PnP so my entire knowledge of these systems is from how they've been adapted for video games. 

It's been a long time, but 5e is on the surface simplified compared to 3.5/PF 1e. Assuming a single class*, for the most part you'll select the skills or tools you're trained in at level 1, pick a subclass between level 1 and 3, get five (unless you're a Rogue or Fighter, who get more) attribute increases that you can substitute a feat for, sometimes pick features based on subclass. Other than that you're pretty much on a track that doesn't really deviate too much.

I'd say it's still more complicated than PoE, but I haven't played either BG3 or Solasta (are they still in EA?) so I can't comment on how they function there. It does have much less options than either PF edition though, mostly because feats were sidelined.

*Of course that initial assumption is a lot, and 5e does have open multiclassing so you can see stuff like a Hexblade Warlock dip to get CHA to hit and damage. There's nothing like you can see in 3.5/pf1e, but a big reason is because 5e really squashed the numbers.

Anyways...

https://m.imgur.com/a/mxGUD0f

I guess the Legend is no slouch.

[ShadySands]

Solasta is out but BG3 is thankfully still in EA as it seems like it still needs a lot of work. Though it may just be a game that never does anything for me.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Oh wow, looks like I totally slept on Solasta. I guess I'll get to it soon.

37 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Though it may just be a game that never does anything for me.

I liked DOS2 well enough (though I never played vanilla and had to deal with the armor system lmao) so I'm reasonably positive about the game. I guess we'll just see what happens when it releases.

[xzar_monty]

10 hours ago, Gromnir said:

then why fight? is a few o' the outdoor poe trash mobs we never bothered to engage, 'cause... why? you could go around. sneak past. whatever. the thing is, most crpg players is skinner box victims. kill everything on the map is part o' your conditioning.

Because about half of them are not possible to go around. Plenty are, that's true.

Longwatch Falls, for example, is terrible in this sense. And the lower level of Galvino's workshop (yes, it's indoors, I know). Absolutely full of stuff that you mostly can't go around.

Edited September 29, 2021 by xzar_monty

[Sarex]

8 hours ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

It's been a long time, but 5e is on the surface simplified compared to 3.5/PF 1e. Assuming a single class*, for the most part you'll select the skills or tools you're trained in at level 1, pick a subclass between level 1 and 3, get five (unless you're a Rogue or Fighter, who get more) attribute increases that you can substitute a feat for, sometimes pick features based on subclass. Other than that you're pretty much on a track that doesn't really deviate too much.

I'd say it's still more complicated than PoE, but I haven't played either BG3 or Solasta (are they still in EA?) so I can't comment on how they function there. It does have much less options than either PF edition though, mostly because feats were sidelined.

*Of course that initial assumption is a lot, and 5e does have open multiclassing so you can see stuff like a Hexblade Warlock dip to get CHA to hit and damage. There's nothing like you can see in 3.5/pf1e, but a big reason is because 5e really squashed the numbers.

Anyways...

https://m.imgur.com/a/mxGUD0f

I guess the Legend is no slouch.

Not how I would have built my character. But looks impressive. I'm getting the urge to get the game and hack the save file to try some builds...

[Gromnir]

10 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Because about half of them are not possible to go around. Plenty are, that's true.

Longwatch Falls, for example, is terrible in this sense. And the lower level of Galvino's workshop (yes, it's indoors, I know). Absolutely full of stuff that you mostly can't go around.

dunno. a general criticism o' the poe maps when you admit "plenty" don't fit the generalization is a dubious starting point. regardless, would say the longwatch observation is hyperbole. the broodmother mob is not trash. a single difficult combat to complete a quest is not trash. is when the combat becomes repetitive filler am believing the trash label becomes appropriate.  most o' the other encounters on the longwatch map is avoidable or not trash. is dlc, so is understandable the maps is packed tight with quest related encounters. spectres ain't trash and neither is the mercs. 

galvino's did feel like a slog and it woulda' been nice if there were a way to avoid at least a fair portion o' the repetitive combat, but again, for those complaining 'bout the fail o' obsidian to match the "spiritual successor" not promise, that is exact what the ie games offered all too often. poe developers specific did not compare to bg2 'cause bg2 were the culmination o' multiple ie games and developers knew there were no way they were gonna achieve some kinda parity with bg2 level o' depth and breadth. poe were s'posed to be deriving inspiration from bg, iwd and ps:t, and even ps:t had a whole lotta trash. is arguable most ps:t combat encounters were trash 'cause were extreme few which offered unique challenges. arguable the worst aspect o' ps:t were combat, and there were a significant amount. that said, galvino's, cad nua dungeon, and a few other locations woulda' benefited from less homage to the ie games and more emphasis on alternative quest resolutions. get no argument from us on such an observation.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 hours ago, Sarex said:

Not how I would have built my character. But looks impressive. I'm getting the urge to get the game and hack the save file to try some builds...

Toy Box let's you play around with most options, I'd recommend it to get a theory crafting fix.

[xzar_monty]

2 hours ago, Gromnir said:

dunno. a general criticism o' the poe maps when you admit "plenty" don't fit the generalization is a dubious starting point.

The big problem is that on the first playthrough, there's often no way to know which mobs are meaningful and which are not. There is essentially no way to tell whether a group of monsters is worth engaging or not, in which case my general solution, for a long while, was to engage rather than not, until eventually it turned out that there were neither loot, XP or quest rewards for most of them. That was a fairly big mistake on Obsidian's part, in my opinion -- and one I believe they've admitted. This is why there is so much less filler combat in Deadfire, and the game sure benefited from that.

Edited September 29, 2021 by xzar_monty

[bugarup]

So  there's a mod that replaces the least annoying (IMO) male voice set with Eder voice set.  I installed it and now I am playing Deadfire again. Win win if you ask me. .

[InsaneCommander]

How do animal companions work with multiclassing? I edited the save file to test a build and tried to have only one level of Cavalier with the Boon Companion feat. Still couldn't ride the animal because that only took it to level 6, I think. With two levels of Cavalier the companion increased in size and I could ride it, but it seems there will be no more upgrading the animal. I imagine it would become very fragile later on.

What about horses? I saw a guy playing as a druid and he had an animal companion and a horse. Not sure if he multiclassed or everyone gets a horse, but will it level up up to 20?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

31 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

How do animal companions work with multiclassing?

If it's like PnP, class levels that get a companion should stack, like Hunter 5/Cavalier 1 would have an animal companion a character of 6th level would have. Levels in classes that don't have a companion don't advance the companion, unless you have Boon Companion in which case up to four levels will advance the companion. One thing that is noticeably missing is Capybara mounts for Small characters.

In WoTR I don't think you can have more than one companion. You can cheese classes that normally restrict companions (like Cavalier being Horse only) by picking it up in another class and then going into Cavalier. Maybe you can buy horses or something, I haven't moved beyond testing builds.

Edited September 30, 2021 by KP the meanie zucchini

[InsaneCommander]

4 minutes ago, KP the meanie zucchini said:

If it's like PnP, class levels that get a companion should stack, like Hunter 5/Cavalier 1 would have an animal companion a character of 6th level would have. Levels in classes that don't have a companion don't advance the companion, unless you have Boon Companion in which case up to four levels will advance the companion. One thing that is noticeably missing is Capybara mounts for Small characters.

In WoTR I don't think you can have more than one companion. You can cheese classes that normally restrict companions (like Cavalier being Horse only) by picking it up in another class and then going into Cavalier. Maybe you can buy horses or something, I haven't moved beyond testing builds.

Ok. Maybe the guy got a horse for one of the companions. Not sure if any of them is a cavalier, but you can always multiclass them.

This will not be my first playthrough, but I really wanted a mounted Arcane Trickster/Trickster for whatever reason. A hafling mounting a velociraptor looks funny. Maybe I'll leave the spells for the Mythic class and be a cavalier. But if someone mods the Boon Companion feat to make the animal reach level 20 I'll totally use it in this pt.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

11 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Ok. Maybe the guy got a horse for one of the companions. Not sure if any of them is a cavalier, but you can always multiclass them.

This will not be my first playthrough, but I really wanted a mounted Arcane Trickster/Trickster for whatever reason. A hafling mounting a velociraptor looks funny. Maybe I'll leave the spells for the Mythic class and be a cavalier. But if someone mods the Boon Companion feat to make the animal reach level 20 I'll totally use it in this pt.

You can summon a murder pony as a Trickster, so why not lmao.

I've honestly played Kingmaker so much with the Call of the Wild mod I've forgotten what is and isn't in vanilla KM and WotR. With all the Nexus drama I'm not up to date on all the WotR mods that have been released, but I hope something like CotW gets releases for WotR.

[InsaneCommander]

Btw, here is my hafling and her pet (after save editing to be able to mount), choosing the best dialogue option for a CN character:

(minor spoilers for the beginning of the game)

Spoiler

 

[Agiel]

On 9/27/2021 at 6:58 PM, Gromnir said:

the charlie fox is what many owlcat fans want. the longest current thread over at the owlcat forums is 'bout playful darkness, an optional boss (though you don't know it is optional when you first encounter) you stumble 'pon midway through the game. even players who know pathfinder inside and out is most likely gonna be indulging reasonable wtfness 'pon first encountering playful darkness, 'cause the ac o' the boss on core is ~bout 60 and it has stratospheric sr and saves which is unlikely a party at level 14 will have any chance o' dealing with... save for by playing at the extreme margins. 

there is numerous ways to beat playful darkness at level 14 with owlcat's version o' pathfinder, but is much akin to defeating a demilich in the original tomb of horrors d&d module. an astral wizard casting power word kill will dispatch a demi-lich outright, but first time playing the module, having never even heard o' a demi-lich previous, makes most unlikely a party will have done the necessary preparation for such an encounter. 1st and 2nd edition demi-lich is bass akwards metagamey nonsense but is more than a few d&d purists who will defend such as fun. if you so desire, you may hear same arguments regarding playful darkness. not surprising, the pathfinder sages at the owlcat boards sneer at those questioning what could possible be fun 'bout an encounter such as playful darkness which functional requires dumb luck or meta-knowledge to survive. 

as levels increase in an ordinary pathfinder ap, the need to resort to metagame and ultra-specialization increases. owlcat faces the additional spectre o' reload-- no matter how subtle the ai, an encounter is only gonna be surprising a player the first time they try and beat it. so owlcat almost necessarily has resorted to stat bloat, which magnifies the metagamey nonsense already baked into pathfinder. 

...

but again, is a Large % o' folks at owlcat defending encounters such as playful darkness and near as challenging critical path encounters. for much o' the fanbase, the normalization o' charlie fox is what makes the owlcat games old skool. the metagamey is mistaken seen as the answer to all the "dumbed down" crpgs the sheep seem to be satisfied with these days... or somesuch nonsense.

*eye roll*

like it or not, reasonable or not, the charlie fox is a serious selling point for a great many wotr players. would be a mistake to ignore the fanbase.

HA! Good Fun!

I recall how in the Icewind Dale games the pre-made parties available at the start had the specific requirement that they were ones a developer or tester was able to beat the game with. I'm curious as to whether or not testers for WotR were able to beat not just the game but also all the optional encounters with the pre-made MC and companion auto-levelling builds on the Core difficulty (even if it does take getting the right equipment, spell selection, and maybe a spot of the RNGoddess being off her period).

Edited October 1, 2021 by Agiel

[Gromnir]

10 hours ago, Agiel said:

I recall how in the Icewind Dale games the pre-made parties available at the start had the specific requirement that they were ones a developer or tester was able to beat the game with. I'm curious as to whether or not testers for WotR were able to beat not just the game but also all the optional encounters with the pre-made MC and companion auto-levelling builds on the Core difficulty (even if it does take getting the right equipment, spell selection, and maybe a spot of the RNGoddess being off her period).

it is a good question. a few vanilla class companions are effective, but am recalling a few o' the suggested level-up choices for feats appeared... curious. 

am recollecting there was a wotr developer who were doing a core walkthrough stream and only got through half of the end of chapter one grey garrison assault, likely because work on the game became an every waking moment endeavor in the final months before release. however, am gonna observe she most assured did not take suggested feats at level-up and she were also getting roll-stomped by othirubo before her walkthrough streams ended. 

am suspecting a few o' the optional encounters, on core, with recommended feats and spells for mc and companions would be a tough slog for most developers who admitted would have spent far more time working on the game as 'posed to playing.  we had many hours invested in wotr beta, and after beating the pathetic quasit battle on core and hard, am wondering how frustrating such a battle could be for many players... and more than a few developers. 

HA! Good Fun!

  

[Achilles]

12 hours ago, Gromnir said:

am wondering how frustrating such a battle could be for many players... and more than a few developers. 

How did it compare to the famous "Adam vs stone beetles" episode?