Just found out that I've completely misunderstood grimoires and now I'm a bit dumbfounded

[Ouroboros226]

So eh... Wizards only have 2 spells per tier. So with lvl3 spells you'll have 6 spells to cast in an encounter. I thought the whole idea with grimoires was that the spells in the grimoires could be cast in addition to your regular spells. So wizards won't end up having nothing to do in longer fights. However I just noticed that the spells in the grimoire, still requires 1 out of the 2 resources for that tier. So if I have a grimoire with fireball - I won't actually have 2 spells + 1 fireball for the encounter. It only means I can now use resources to cast a skill I haven't invested a point in obtaining.  

    

This kinda makes grimoires feel useless imo. Not only that, it makes pure wizard feel weaker too. You could just multiclass and get ALL your spells from grimoires, not investing a single skill point in wizard spells. I'm kinda dumbfounded because I thought the whole idea of grimoires was that you can cast the spells in the grimoire once per encounter or rest or something, in addition to your regular spells... but they use wizard resource points - making them pretty much completely obsolete if you have 2-3 spells you want for each tier.   

  

Have I misunderstood something about grimoires? O.o I thought it was a cool idea to gain additional spells from grimoires. But you actually don't... they use resource points too. 

[Noqn]

10 minutes ago, Ouroboros226 said:

I'm kinda dumbfounded because I thought the whole idea of grimoires was that you can cast the spells in the grimoire once per encounter or rest or something, in addition to your regular spells...

This is a cool idea tbh, would probably have made grimoire selection + ability selection more interesting, though I guess something would have to be done with grimoire switching mid-combat.

And no, you've not misunderstood grimores, it's as you describe that each cast take one resource from that level, regardless of which spell was cast.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Noqn

[Ouroboros226]

7 minutes ago, Noqn said:

This is a cool idea tbh, would probably have made grimoire selection + ability selection more interesting, though I guess something would have to be done with grimoire switching mid-combat.

And no, you've not misunderstood grimores, it's as you describe that each cast take one resource from that level, regardless of which spell was cast.

 

Ahh such a bummer. Grimoires not swappable in combat, but grimoire spells can be cast once each per rest or something - would make grimoires relevant. At least I don't have to hoard them now, vendoring all of them.

[dgray62]

Keep in mind that if you select the bloodmage subclass, or have a way to generate the brilliant inspiration, you can renew resources, which for mages is a periodic regeneration of one used spell slot, at a random level if several slots are used. There is also a way to gain unlimited uses of spells per encounter. This is by stealing spells via the minor and major grimoire imprint spells. These can be made permanent if you cast the imprint spell from a grimoire, and then switch to a different grimoire without the spell before the encounter ends. It's somewhat cheesy, but works of you're so inclined.

[thelee]

2 hours ago, Ouroboros226 said:

This kinda makes grimoires feel useless imo. Not only that, it makes pure wizard feel weaker too. You could just multiclass and get ALL your spells from grimoires, not investing a single skill point in wizard spells.

this is pretty close.

grimoires run the spectrum depending on how willing you are to use them: one end they are either extremely useless because you just pick whatever spells you need or they are extremely useful because you pick up a bunch of other skills and let grimoire-switching pick up the slack. the latter, however, requires a "heroic amount of metagame knowledge" (per JE Sawyer's own words) and a lot of micromanagement.

that being said, grimoires are still useful because

• there are some truly unique spells that are only available via grimoires. some of the best spells are grimoire-only.
• two grimoires have truly unique effects (one grants you +1 spellcast per level but self-damage causes interrupts, another gives you a once/rest ability)

it's still worth picking up a couple to switch between as a result. 

 

it is definitely the case that multiclass wizard is extremely "easy" or versatile because you could just pick up all your spells from wizard, this does require the aforementioned metagame knowledge and micromanagement. It doesn't diminish pure wizard, though. Tier 8 and 9 wizard spells are extremely powerful, and despite obsidian's best efforts at balancing away from this, wizard follows an exponential power curve. (My go-to example is that an empowered tier 9 missile barrage spell will one-shot most encounters--even bosses!--in the game.) It does mean, however, that wizard builds can start feeling samey since so much of the power comes from grimoires that you find versus character choices you make. Subclass restrictions can change things up, but some don't like how restrictve they are.

 

edit: with non-blood mage subclasses, paying attention to grimoires can be useful, because due to the spell restrictions it might become harder to find grimoires that give you a good spread of spells, so you have to do a lot more in-combat swapping and out-of-combat adjustment.

Edited September 1, 2021 by thelee

[Haplok]

8 hours ago, thelee said:

•  
• two grimoires have truly unique effects (one grants you +1 spellcast per level but self-damage causes interrupts, another gives you a once/rest ability)

Note there is also a certain item that can negate all Interrupts....

That grimoire is a no-brainer for caster non-bloodmages IMO.

[Faraleth]

Yeah, due to how spell learning/grimoires working in Deadfire I couldnt enjoy playing a non-BM wizard, even tho it was one of my favourite class in Poe1. It felt great to learn all spells in the game.

Now I'm mostly using either https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Ninagauth's_Teachings for NG Shadowflame (my best carry spell in 1) or https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Iron-Clasped_Grimoire for CH Crushing Doom. (my second carry spell in 1), even tho I know that I should use the +1 cast / level

[Not So Clever Hound]

11 hours ago, thelee said:

one grants you +1 spellcast per level but self-damage causes interrupts

It's probably a bit overkill to clarify, but damage received from attacks (enemies or self-targeting) causes interrupts with the Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardy, however the self-damaging component of Blood Sacrifice does not cause interrupts.

2 hours ago, Haplok said:

Note there is also a certain item that can negate all Interrupts....

Not to mention that an Arcane Knight for example can pick Hands of Light which gives immunity to interrupts, prolong it with WoD, and not even require the Fractured Casque.  

[Boeroer]

Grimoire mechanic is extremely useful - at least for multiclasses but also for non-Bloodmage single class wizards - because once you realize that you don't have to invest ability points to cast spells you can spend them all on passives and/or active non-wizard abilities. SC Wizard can pick all the empowerment abilities and have fun with the Least Unstable Cool and Weyc stuff in the endgame for example.

7 Grimoires (1 trinket slot, 4 quick slots + 2 more via Deep Pockets or Fleshmender/Giftbearer's Cloth) means you don't have to use a single ability point and still can have a huge portfolio of spells. Massive versatility - that's what grimoires give you - not more spell uses. 

Spell uses are part of the balancing process. If a grimoire would allow you to cast the spells it contains in addition to the ones you learned the balance would break. That would mean you'd need to nerf all wizard spells to make up for that. Now versatility is also part of the balancing process, but more versatility won't break the game balance as easily as more spell uses. 

There's a reason why Blood Mage and Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry are so popular despite their disadvantages.

I think it's a good system, too good compared to other casters like Priest and Druid even who "only" get some fixed bonus spells which feel like predefined, very thin and tiny "grimoire light". 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Boeroer

[Not So Clever Hound]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Fleshmender/Giftbearer's Cloth

Yes but beware of the bug with Giftbearer Cloth that if you get for instance briefly transformed into a piglet with Form of Helpless Beast, when you come back to normal you might have lost the object (grimoire or else) that was in your last Quick Item splot. The game buggily removes the Cape when you're transformed, and when you're back you can miss quick items.

I lost The Ironclasped like this once and had to reload like 2h before. Oh, I hate Form of Helpless Beast.  

[NotDumbEnough]

23 hours ago, thelee said:

it is definitely the case that multiclass wizard is extremely "easy" or versatile because you could just pick up all your spells from wizard, this does require the aforementioned metagame knowledge and micromanagement. It doesn't diminish pure wizard, though. Tier 8 and 9 wizard spells are extremely powerful, and despite obsidian's best efforts at balancing away from this, wizard follows an exponential power curve. (My go-to example is that an empowered tier 9 missile barrage spell will one-shot most encounters--even bosses!--in the game.) It does mean, however, that wizard builds can start feeling samey since so much of the power comes from grimoires that you find versus character choices you make. Subclass restrictions can change things up, but some don't like how restrictve they are.

I feel that this is an issue with late game single class casters in general. You don't even need to blow an empower, if you have multiple casters (e.g. Aloth, Tekehu and Xoti) you can just lay down a wombo combo from stealth and instantly annihilate everything. Something like Call of Rymrgand+Great Maelstrom+Wall of Many Colors is just stupid when you cast all three from stealth at the same time. I personally have a house rule that I only use one spell at a time when attacking from stealth, otherwise I would trivialize way too many late game encounters.

[thelee]

oh yeah, i said wizard but upon reflection it really is the perennial general "caster" power curve problem.

 

i think maybe ciphers miss out on it, but it's kinda wild how much power opens up for other single-class casters. priests go from support characters to being solid DPS characters as well with just the addition of those two extra tiers. don't get me started on greater maelstrom...