Alternative effect for "Brilliant"

[Boeroer]

Heyho. I didn't want to post this in one of the Balancing/Polishing threads because I feared it would bring too much chaos there since there's so many other topics to solve there already. So I made this thread to keep it tidy.

Brilliant is pretty OP in combination with Wall of Draining, Salvation of Time or just Tactician.

The fact that it not only gives you back resources once - but instead periodically refunds your resources makes it so vulnerable to cheese, especially for casters with their spells.

So there have been efforts to mod Brilliant into a less OP version and the solutions make sense.

I just had a thought though: Confusion turns all foe-only effects into friendly fire (including the extended AoE from INT that usually is foe only even if it's a friendly fire spell at its core). At the same time we know how awesome Tekehu's versions of Chillfog, Freezing Pillar etc. are. 

So why not turn all friendly fire effects into foe-only when being Brilliant? The resource gain can be kept but in a weaker form - especially for casters. Actually I wouldn't mind if non-spell resources would still increase like they do now - just spell use regain has to be nerfed into one-time gain or having really long intervals.

The friendly-fire to foe-only effect would be an additional advantage that mostly applies to casters - the very group I would want to nerf Brilliant for in the first place. So it would give them something back for the loss. It would be neat and cool, fit well as an opposite of Confusion and will be not as "broken" in combination with prolonging effects. 

What do you think?

Edited February 22, 2021 by Boeroer

[Exanos]

As an optionnal option it would be great. It would make the chanter's refund ressource invocation more appealing for spellcaster (who use it actually ? ). No friendly fire is a big bonus for nuker (but situationnal with good combat management), uselless for other, maybe add a little something to make it more appealing as,a t3 inspiration (like reduced cast time, will fit thematically) ? 

For martial, keep the ressource regen, it will kill tactician otherwise.

Edit : if separating brilliant effect for martial/caster is too hard, i will either go : restore a finite amount of ressource (like chanter) or add a +XPL (3?).

Edited February 22, 2021 by Exanos

[Not So Clever Hound]

@Boeroer I think it's a cool idea and a fair compensation for casters (for group play at least  but solo has many other ways to become OP).

Of note, I think this will make Bloodmage even more OP vs. the other classes in SC and MC configurations.

Of note #2 I agree with all of @Exanos's points... maybe then Brilliant for casters could have more PL increase (RP fit)?

Of note #3 and to your last point @Exanos, do you know that under certain conditions, Tactician could circumvent the nerf of having Brilliant renew resources only once? It's a well-known fact that you can trigger Brilliant Tactician if you turn invisible and deaggro your enemies at a certain distance. However what I've seen on several occasions while playing with this, is that Brilliant Tactician is applied and cancelled, then reapplied etc. in quick successions which actually renews your resources quite quickly (if you can stay away from the enemy and not aggro of course). I've not put any efforts into understanding this quirk better and making it happen consistently, but it could be a way for Tactician SC/MC builds to circumvent the nerf that @Boeroer suggests?

Edited February 22, 2021 by Not So Clever Hound

[Elric Galad]

First, I don't know if it's technically feasible. I would say probably not since the game doesn't have an effect like this.

Then, I'm pretty happy with Brilliant giving back to ressources. I fear that My only grip is how broken it is for casters. Changing it would probably make Megabosses battles too hard. Yup, that's 4 fights in the game but I still don't want to make them impossible.

Capping it at Tier 3 in my mod spell might have been an overnerf, so we are currently discussing with @MaxQuestabout giving back spell slot without limitation about one time out of three. We want to take time to think about it because of technical tediousness, but I think we will eventually find something.

Also, the abilities/subclass you named have all been tweaked or nerfed to avoid abuses in BPM.

Once it is done, I also plan to set Chanter Tier IX invocation to (non-self) +2 ressources. Note that casters can only get 2 casts of the same Tier through this so it is more or less balanced (restoring a Tier 7/9 slot costs a cast). I've added this to my TO DO list just before going to bed yesterday

Edited February 22, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Exanos]

An other way will be to keep brillant as it is but making it a Pl8 or 9 cipher power. Maybe tweaking salvation of time to not add up can work too (you can't benefit it if you are already under one).

[Elric Galad]

29 minutes ago, Exanos said:

An other way will be to keep brillant as it is but making it a Pl8 or 9 cipher power. Maybe tweaking salvation of time to not add up can work too (you can't benefit it if you are already under one).

Are you refering the modded version of SoT which caps at doubling a duration ?

Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community

I disagree about putting it on Tier 8 - 9. It would be too constraining for party composition.
EDIT : to be more clear, my target is that the ideal party would need either a Cipher, a SC Chanter and or enough other characters with infinite ressources (MC Chanters, Monks, Blood Mage, Tactician, SC Martial who all have a ressource regain means in my mod)

Ancestor's Memory as a Tier 7 giving about 3 base resources back to Martial characters is something I'm not willing to change.


Currently, I'm leaning to :
- 6s tick +1 ressource up to Tier 3
- 12s tick +1 ressource up to Tier 9 (cumulative with previous one)
- No effect on initial tick (which would solve Tactician rebooting Brilliant)
- A couple of additional Tactician changes, but consider I already made some changes in my mod.

Except if Maxquest finds something smarter  

Edited February 22, 2021 by Elric Galad

[Exanos]

1 minute ago, Elric Galad said:

Are you refering the modded version of SoT which caps at doubling a duration ?

Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community

I disagree about putting it on Tier 8 - 9. It would be too constraining for party composition.
 

I'm refering vs vanilla effect. I don't use much mods except community patch.

Let's be honest, vanilla version of brilliant is way to good for a pl7. Keeping it away from multiclass cipher will help making it not that easy to get. Constraining party composition can be part of the fun : in all my run i get a chanter/cipher cause it's a nobrainer...

Of course, if you nerf brilliant effect then leaving it at pl7 is fine. I would be quite happy if it just add a good chunk of Pl (benefit to martial and caster) or massively reduce cast time (martial would need a counterpart still).

 

[Elric Galad]

Just now, Exanos said:

I'm refering vs vanilla effect. I don't use much mods except community patch.

Let's be honest, vanilla version of brilliant is way to good for a pl7. Keeping it away from multiclass cipher will help making it not that easy to get. Constraining party composition can be part of the fun : in all my run i get a chanter/cipher cause it's a nobrainer...

Of course, if you nerf brilliant effect then leaving it at pl7 is fine. I would be quite happy if it just add a good chunk of Pl (benefit to martial and caster) or massively reduce cast time (martial would need a counterpart still).

 

Yup, but you suggested to move it to Tier 8/9. So I supposed you expected a Mod to do that

And the initial post explicitly referred to Community Patch and Balance Polishing Mod, so it's legit to explain what they already do.

[Exanos]

True, my bad then ^^. For brilliant restoring spell, can you tweak the chance of getting spells back depending of tier? (Something like 40% for tier 1-3, 30% tier 4-5, 20% tier 6-7, 10% tier 8-9). If you don't have used spell of the lvl, the tick do nothing. Can be an alternative...

[Elric Galad]

19 minutes ago, Exanos said:

True, my bad then ^^. For brilliant restoring spell, can you tweak the chance of getting spells back depending of tier? (Something like 40% for tier 1-3, 30% tier 4-5, 20% tier 6-7, 10% tier 8-9). If you don't have used spell of the lvl, the tick do nothing. Can be an alternative...

In term of power, what you suggest is indeed about the right target.

In term of implementation, just be aware there are technical limitations. Not to flood with details, some examples :

- "If you don't have used spell of the lvl, the tick do nothing. " => Seems technically impossible

- "20% tier 6-7" =>  Seems technically impossible. What is possible is restoring Tier 1 - x, not Tier x to y. The floor level isn't an editable parameter.

- For some reason, randomizing separately each Tick seems tedious (or leads to side-effects).


As an example Bloodmage Sacrifice does in Vanilla game :
- 1/3 Tier 1-4
- 1/3 Tier 1-7
- 1/3 Tier 1-9
But it seems that there is a small bug compared to devs intent, so I moded it to :
- 1/3 Tier 1-3
- 1/3 Tier 1-6
- 1/3 Tier 1-9 
You can't do the same for Brilliant because randomizing separately each Tick is not that easy. It works for Bloodmage because it is not a tick.

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, Elric Galad said:

First, I don't know if it's technically feasible. I would say probably not since the game doesn't have an effect like this.

Yes, I feared that might be the case. Tekehu's spells are copies of Wizard spells which got altered in name and firendly fire - so I guessed there might be no overarching effect which can do that "on the fly". But since there seems to be an effect that turns all AoE into friendly fire (Confusion) I hoped there might be a way to achieve the opposite effect.

[Elric Galad]

Just now, Boeroer said:

Yes, I feared that might be the case. Tekehu's spells are copies of Wizard spells which got altered in name and firendly fire - so I guessed there might be no overarching effect which can do that "on the fly". But since there seems to be an effect that turns all AoE into friendly fire (Confusion) I hoped there might be a way to achieve the opposite effect.

Would be interesting to know. Sometimes there's dead code

(an example was a condition "on Hit only" which excluded On Graze and On Crit effects. This was useful to debug Entropy)

[thelee]

would it be a terrible idea to just limit the spells that can be regenerated to 1-3 ?

it is good, but not necessarily buh-roken for martial classes, and in past discussions it seems to me that hte major problem is being able to get like a tier 9 spell back every 6 seconds, which would be roughly equivalent to 4 ticks or so for a martial class (in terms of how abilities get costed). plus, the more abusable caster effects are higher up (salvation of time, petrify/paralyze effects).

[NotDumbEnough]

Would it be possible to make Brilliant have a % chance to refund spell casts/class resources instead of regenerating them?

[Elric Galad]

15 hours ago, thelee said:

would it be a terrible idea to just limit the spells that can be regenerated to 1-3 ?

it is good, but not necessarily buh-roken for martial classes, and in past discussions it seems to me that hte major problem is being able to get like a tier 9 spell back every 6 seconds, which would be roughly equivalent to 4 ticks or so for a martial class (in terms of how abilities get costed). plus, the more abusable caster effects are higher up (salvation of time, petrify/paralyze effects).

That's the current implementation of Balance Polishing Mod. So I would say not a terrible idea  

That said, I have some regrets for cutting almost all possibilities to regenerate higher tier spell, and it makes casters a bit meh for long fight.
Regenerating up to Tier 3 is around the same level of power as 1 ressource, but isn't as flexible.

Abusable caster effects may require a direct nerf, not indirect through Brilliant. SoT has been addressed by BPM. Some stuff like Barring Death Door may require further "care".

13 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Would it be possible to make Brilliant have a % chance to refund spell casts/class resources instead of regenerating them?

I would be very tricky and tedious for martials, and I would say not feasible for casters since you can't target a specific level to refund. 
The encounter design requires regenerating ressources though, so I won't even like it.
(PoE1 encounter design was different.)

[Raven Darkholme]

On 2/22/2021 at 7:44 AM, Boeroer said:

 

So why not turn all friendly fire effects into foe-only when being Brilliant? The resource gain can be kept but in a weaker form - especially for casters. Actually I wouldn't mind if non-spell resources would still increase like they do now - just spell use regain has to be nerfed into one-time gain or having really long intervals.

The friendly-fire to foe-only effect would be an additional advantage that mostly applies to casters - the very group I would want to nerf Brilliant for in the first place. So it would give them something back for the loss. It would be neat and cool, fit well as an opposite of Confusion and will be not as "broken" in combination with prolonging effects. 

What do you think?

Wouldn't really be a nerf, would just change the way you use brilliant.

Brilliant is also not the most broken thing in the game by itself, it only becomes op with extended duration (but if you fully cheese it you don't even need brilliant)

 

Thatz being said your suggestion would make for a hell of a fun playthru.

[Elric Galad]

Yeah, not enthusiastic about it as a Brilliant nerf, but as some kind of independant buff, it would be super fun !

[Boeroer]

I just thought it would fit as part of an INT inspiration - because the other way round (turning foe-only into friendly fire) is part of an INT affliction.

[Noqn]

Just a proof of concept, but still!

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Noqn

[Boeroer]

Nice! How did you do it?

[Noqn]

9 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Nice! How did you do it?

Made a new (hidden) Keyword, added it to one of the Brilliant effects. Made a duplicate of the Fireball_Aoe attack named Fireball_Aoe_Brilliant, made it hostile-only and added it as an extra attack to the original Fireball_Aoe. Added a conditional to Fireball_Aoe so that it will ignore all targets if the caster has an effect with the new Brilliant Keyword. Added a conditional to Fireball_Aoe_Brilliant so that it will only fire if the caster has an effect with the new Brilliant Keyword.

Basically makes the original attack ignore everything and puts a hostile-only duplicate on top if it when the caster is Brilliant.

The process would have to be repeated on all AoE attacks, so dunno if I can automize it and actually make a mod out of this concept, but the result is a lot better than I expected.

[Boeroer]

6 hours ago, Noqn said:

The process would have to be repeated on all AoE attacks, so dunno if I can automize it and actually make a mod out of this concept, but the result is a lot better than I expected.

Cool. But wow, manually that would be too much work imo. But if the naming patterns and ability structures were consistent then one could write a routine that does this automatically. But I fear that will not be the case. 

Has anybody knowledge about how Confusion causes everything to become friendly fire? I guess there's an overarching effect at play and not an implementation like above?

[Noqn]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Cool. But wow, manually that would be too much work imo.

 

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Has anybody knowledge about how Confusion causes everything to become friendly fire? I guess there's an overarching effect at play and not an implementation like above?

Exactly, Confusion utilizes the AttacksTargetAll effect.

[Boeroer]

And one can't create an effect like AttacksTargetEnemies or whatever and apply it in the same way?

Edited February 24, 2021 by Boeroer

[Noqn]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

And one can't create an effect like AttacksTargetEnemies or whatever and apply it in the same way?

No, there sadly is no such effect.

Edit: after some more thinking, I'm not going to try to make something out of this. It would be insanely convoluted or most likely impossible to implement for abilities that generate continuous attacks, such as beams or pulsing AoEs. I love the concept of anti-confusion, but @Elric Galad's current solution is already superb and not to mention infinitely cleaner implemented, so I feel like this is something I'd only do for the technical challenge.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Noqn