Politics 20/20

[HoonDing]

Send him back.

[BruceVC]

25 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

Send him back.

Deporting people definitely is a reasonable outcome for some people  and should be considered in certain crimes and circumstances, like all  those  anti-Western,  hate preaching Islamic extremist clerics we use to see in the UK. They have all been arrested, deported or extradited to the USA which people dread for some reason ? 

But I dont think you can deport Cheong as he is  a US citizen by birth?

 

[Malcador]

Doesn't matter where we send him, as long as it's one way.

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, Deadly_Nightshade said:

While I suspect that no Justice could wholly be seen as supporting all civil liberties, in part because there are going to be situations where multiple liberties conflict, I would, personally, say that she did more to defend them than she did to restrict them (particularly when it came to the First Amendment). Although my guess is that, in part, we might disagree on Originalism and that might account for the conflicting view?

OK you hit on an interesting point that I’d like to come back to  in a bit. Little short for time right now.
 

when it comes to civil liberties I am of the opinion that there are two positions. The first is that you are in favor of all of them all the time for all the people. The second is that you were opposed to all of them all the time for all the people.
 

Many people think there is a middle ground where some civil liberties  are OK and others are not. Some are absolute and others granted only at the pleasure of the body politic or “the people”.  Those people are fools. And they are firmly in the latter camp and just don’t realize it. 
 

One statement politicians frequently make and others too, that I absolutely cannot stand is “You don’t need to own X”. Be at a gun, type of gun, type of car, whatever. Just by thinking that they have deemed themselves the superior of their fellow citizen and in a position to dictate to people they have never met what they can or can’t have or do or don’t need.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

1 hour ago, HoonDing said:

Send him back.

The funny thing is that he never left, Ian has never been to the US and currently lives in Malaysia, which makes his almost exclusive focus on US politics strange.

[BruceVC]

9 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

 

One statement politicians frequently make and others too, that I absolutely cannot stand is “You don’t need to own X”. Be at a gun, type of gun, type of car, whatever. Just by thinking that they have deemed themselves the superior of their fellow citizen and in a position to dictate to people they have never met what they can or can’t have or do or don’t need.

You  make a good overall point here but would you agree governments do have a right to determine if a citizen is suffering from  some sort of disfunction, like bipolar or dementia that isn't  being treated , and then its understandable you would deny them something like gun ownership or being able to work in certain jobs....like a police man

So thats one of the few exceptions to your prudent " You dont need to own x " axiom 

[HoonDing]

Cheong was Qistina

[Guard Dog]

31 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

You  make a good overall point here but would you agree governments do have a right to determine if a citizen is suffering from  some sort of disfunction, like bipolar or dementia that isn't  being treated , and then its understandable you would deny them something like gun ownership or being able to work in certain jobs....like a police man

So thats one of the few exceptions to your prudent " You dont need to own x " axiom 

And you trust the government to exercise that power responsibly and evenhandedly? You trusted at some future point they won’t decide that everyone who wants something they don’t think they should have is inherently irrational and mentally dysfunctional? Or believes something they “know” is wrong is not a symptom of some mental defect?

Government is not made up of robots. It’s made up of people. People have passions prejudices and ambitions. And very few are able to subordinate them to some notion of the greater good.  Far from it. Usually they construe the greater good as to matching their passions, prejudices and ambitions.  Politicians most of all. The people who have political power are typically the exact ones you wish didn’t. The only way to protect yourself from them is by limiting what they can do. Taking an absolutist approach to that is certainly no vice in my opinion.

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Guard Dog
And another thing

[Skarpen]

@Guard Dogwhat exactly government should be able to do in your view?

[213374U]

4 hours ago, KaineParker said:

Isn't Cheong the guy who was a nazi fanboy on rpg codex and then bounced around different grifts for the last decade?

Exitium. ****posting since ca. 2000. He's a bit of a joke over there IIRC. Gotta hand it to him though, the rest of us have to work for a living.

His focus on US politics is self-explanatory -- no one gives two ****s about Malaysian politics outside of Malaysia and he's always been a colossal attention whore. Essentially an improbably successful troll. It's profoundly depressing that people still read the garbage he posts.

[Darkpriest]

I guess people in Portland really hate Abe Lincoln and Teddy Roosvelt. 

What's that "Day of Rage" thing popping up here and there? 

[Amentep]

13 minutes ago, 213374U said:

. It's profoundly depressing that people still read the garbage he posts.

Kinda hard to avoid when his tweets are showing up in news stories.

[Guard Dog]

25 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

I guess people in Portland really hate Abe Lincoln and Teddy Roosvelt. 

What's that "Day of Rage" thing popping up here and there? 

They decided two minutes of hate was not enough

[Malcador]

19 minutes ago, Amentep said:

Kinda hard to avoid when his tweets are showing up in news stories.

That is even more depressing.

[Elerond]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/10/12/california-illegal-ballot-boxes/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=wp_main

"The California GOP has pushed voters to pop their mail-in ballots inside. Social media posts have advertised their locations, and one regional field director posted a photo to Twitter on Friday showing him holding a ballot in front of one of the boxes.

“Doing my part and voting early,” Jordan Tygh wrote in the now-deleted tweet, which was reviewed by The Washington Post before it was removed. “DM me for convenient locations to drop your ballot off at!”

But those containers, which were first reported by the Orange County Register and KCAL, are not county-authorized ballot drop-off sites. In fact, the unofficial boxes are against the law, state officials said Sunday.

Erecting or advertising unofficial ballot boxes could be a felony that carries a two-to-four-year prison sentence, according to the secretary of state’s office."

 

It seems that Democrats just don't understand that Republicans are law and order and also ballot boxes are people 

[Deadly_Nightshade]

3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

when it comes to civil liberties I am of the opinion that there are two positions. The first is that you are in favor of all of them all the time for all the people. The second is that you were opposed to all of them all the time for all the people.

I actually agree with this more than I disagree, although I suspect that I am more pragmatic while you're more principled.

In my mind the reason for the government to exist at all is to attempt to preserve as much personal freedom and choice as possible while also stopping actions that overly infringe on peoples' agility to exercise and enjoy those personal freedoms. I do agree with strict scrutiny, although not always with how it is applied, and do think that there will need to be some compromises to personal freedom if someone wants to be part of society, for example wearing a mask during a pandemic because that is a minimal infringement of personal freedom that directly protects others heath and thus their ability to enjoy and exercise their personal freedoms, but that should be attempted in the least infringing manner.

But unless an action is causing significant, active harm to others then, in general, I do not think it should be regulated - although I'm also currently running on approximately an hour and a half of sleep so I've tried to avoid making an absolute statement lest I think of an obvious exception when I'm less tired and more cognizant. And, personally, I'd much rather have an ineffective government than an overly authoritarian one (that's one reason I dislike Trump - he is the worst of both and manages to be both actively useless and dedicated to expanding the imperial presidency to an even more excessive degree than has already been done by both parties in the past).

[Deadly_Nightshade]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

And you trust the government to exercise that power responsibly and evenhandedly? You trusted at some future point they won’t decide that everyone who wants something they don’t think they should have is inherently irrational and mentally dysfunctional?

Agreed, everyone thinks that are part of a protected class that will not be targeted by the tyranny of the majority or authoritarian minority until it happens (and, spoiler alert, they're all wrong):

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 hours ago, 213374U said:

Exitium. ****posting since ca. 2000. He's a bit of a joke over there IIRC. Gotta hand it to him though, the rest of us have to work for a living.

His focus on US politics is self-explanatory -- no one gives two ****s about Malaysian politics outside of Malaysia and he's always been a colossal attention whore. Essentially an improbably successful troll. It's profoundly depressing that people still read the garbage he posts.

I understand it on an intellectual level, but on a personal/emotional level I find the idea of obsessive fanboyism for right-wing authoritarians half a world removed weird and pathetic. Like almost anything else would be a more fulfilling use of time.

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

That is even more depressing.

Yup.

7 minutes ago, Elerond said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/10/12/california-illegal-ballot-boxes/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=wp_main

"The California GOP has pushed voters to pop their mail-in ballots inside. Social media posts have advertised their locations, and one regional field director posted a photo to Twitter on Friday showing him holding a ballot in front of one of the boxes.

“Doing my part and voting early,” Jordan Tygh wrote in the now-deleted tweet, which was reviewed by The Washington Post before it was removed. “DM me for convenient locations to drop your ballot off at!”

But those containers, which were first reported by the Orange County Register and KCAL, are not county-authorized ballot drop-off sites. In fact, the unofficial boxes are against the law, state officials said Sunday.

Erecting or advertising unofficial ballot boxes could be a felony that carries a two-to-four-year prison sentence, according to the secretary of state’s office."

 

It seems that Democrats just don't understand that Republicans are law and order and also ballot boxes are people 

The voter fraud is coming from inside the house.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

6 minutes ago, KaineParker said:

The voter fraud is coming from inside the house.

A White House? 

[ComradeYellow]

We do have a bit of a white trash redneck problem in the U.S. though I'm not sure how to effectively deal with it.  It's not just confined to the South either, go to any rural area in the U.S. and you're gonna find some really dumb and ignorant people who are against positive change.  Liberals are too busy obsessing over Russiagate and class shaming anyone who isn't in their little high tower "educated" bubble to do anything about it, and openly racist people like Bill Maher absolutely do not help the situation, he's like the shining example of an ignorant American liberal.  So yeah, I've pretty much completely given up hope on Democrats to do the right thing especially if they win in November, they will take that as proof of their superiority and grow complacent again.

[Malcador]

6 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

We do have a bit of a white trash redneck problem in the U.S. though I'm not sure how to effectively deal with it

Start a war

[Chilloutman]

I wonder if I will reach age in which americans start running back to Europe xD

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

3 hours ago, Deadly_Nightshade said:

A White House? 

Trump has dodged the question of accepting the election results and several Republicans have admitted to be considering interpretations of electoral decision-making that ignores the popular vote so yeah probably. It's kind of funny to see this happen and voter suppression happen while liberals droning on with "VOTE" or praying for Trump's safe recovery instead of coming up with any strategy to deal with Trump's possible coup. I guess if America becomes a proper dictatorship, it's only fitting it happens in the dumbest way possible.

[Hurlshort]

I had a parade of about 8 vehicles loop around my block for the last hour+ honking and waving Trump flags. 

Oddly enough we had a number of BLM and Anti-ICE protests in the summer that went by our house, and they were much quieter. There was some chanting, but no loud trucks laying on the horns. Ah well, to each their own. I'm not sure why anyone would spend so much energy celebrating a politician myself, I guarantee they aren't returning the favor.

[ComradeYellow]

1 hour ago, KaineParker said:

Trump has dodged the question of accepting the election results and several Republicans have admitted to be considering interpretations of electoral decision-making that ignores the popular vote so yeah probably. It's kind of funny to see this happen and voter suppression happen while liberals droning on with "VOTE" or praying for Trump's safe recovery instead of coming up with any strategy to deal with Trump's possible coup. I guess if America becomes a proper dictatorship, it's only fitting it happens in the dumbest way possible.

Republicans made the same "dictatorship" claims about Obama, which never bore fruition.  I'm sorry but I don't think the real estate show biz Orange turned POTUS packs the Machiavellian gears to orchestrate a complete and thorough takeover of the U.S, but I do find it disturbing that both wings of the American joke of a political system seem to be prophesizing it...