Politics 2020 - the gift that keeps giving

[Malcador]

43 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

First president in 16 years to have ended the meaningless wars in the middle east. Save for some short term operations we haven't had any major conflict, I'd say that's more than talking.

Seems like a slow wind down rather than ending, troops are still there and in Afghanistan as well.   So, yeah stiill seems like a lot talk.  Well I guess he did veto a cut to heatlhcare his administration came up with, good to fix problems you make yourself

[Orogun01]

22 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

We aren't in Iraq anymore? That's news to me.

Killing that Iranian general didn't exactly seem like a peace in the middle east strategy.

I'd say these wars are naturally petering out in a excruciatingly slow manner, and I'm not sure any President deserves credit for that. He certainly isn't cutting military spending either, quite the opposite.

There aren't any major operations going, we are not increasing our numbers in those areas. Save for an exit strategy I'd say, the wars seem to be over.

The only thing that peter out was coverage by the media during the Obama administration, up until Trump operations were ongoing and getting stronger. They don't call Obama the Bomber in chief for nothing.

Military spending is defense spending, it is the only legitimate federal spending since that's one of the duties of the federal government. To provide for the defense of the country, considering that we might get into a hot war with China (and we have been close) I'd say it is well spent.
 

[ComradeYellow]

29 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

 No matter how despicable Donald Trump is that does not make Joe Biden better. The truth is neither of them deserve our vote. And neither of them is getting mine.

To me, it's like choosing between Ronald Reagan and Mussolini.  That's how low we've come over the past several decades, when Reagan is still considered a great POTUS and fascism is attractive to a good portion of the audience.

After reviewing American history and our achievements prior to neoliberalism, it's absurd.  I would like to say we're better than that, but the same thing happened in a country called 'Germany'.  19th century Germany was a place of great philosophical technological advancements, but come the 20th century that translated into an overblown ego that led to two world wars and the rest is history.

Or we doomed to be Germany 2.0 or can we turn this around?

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, Orogun01 said:

There aren't any major operations going, we are not increasing our numbers in those areas.
 

You are, they just aren't being publicised much. There's a bunch of new US troops in Saudi Arabia, for example.

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

We aren't in Iraq anymore? That's news to me.

Killing that Iranian general didn't exactly seem like a peace in the middle east strategy.

I'd say these wars are naturally petering out in a excruciatingly slow manner, and I'm not sure any President deserves credit for that. He certainly isn't cutting military spending either, quite the opposite.

already linked the troop deployment articles. we got virtual same presence overseas as 2016 but we did get to add one o' those shameful American acts to the list by abandoning the kurds (again) and getting untold numbers o' our former allies murdered.

Go Team America!

HA! Good Fun!

[Orogun01]

14 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

You are, they just aren't being publicised much. There's a bunch of new US troops in Saudi Arabia, for example.

I believe it, after their spat with Turkey I'd imagine that a show of military force was needed to maintain order. I would say that there's a great difference between defending strategic allies and invading.
Honestly, it has become baffling when I hear people that see the world in absolutes. Do you really think that invading a country and mobilizing troops at the request the country is the same?

[Orogun01]

18 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

already linked the troop deployment articles. we got virtual same presence overseas as 2016 but we did get to add one o' those shameful American acts to the list by abandoning the kurds (again) and getting untold numbers o' our former allies murdered.

Go Team America!

HA! Good Fun!

Yep, but the alternative is that we create another Israel. We know how that has turned out and the conflicts that has caused. If the goal is to diminish US military actions in the middle east, then we ought to stop meddling in the middle east. Sorry for the Kurds but Americans are tired of dying overseas for private interests that don't make life in America better.
Selfish; yes, but as an immigrant that is surrounded by other immigrants from all walks of life I can say that: The perspective foreigners have of the US is completely wrong, I currently work with former middle upper class Venezuelans that can't believe why the cost of living in the US is so high or why services that were dirt cheap in their country cost so much in the US.
My point is, Kurds might think of the US armed forces as the greatest that will go back to the greatest country. I know by virtue of being a college graduate that they're stuck in the same rut as me, except that they have more PTSD to deal with.

[Gromnir]

53 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Yep, but the alternative is that we create another Israel. 

something somebody heard on alt-right radio? such were never a serious concern. hardly binary: abandon to mass murder or a kurdish state made possible by constant US involvement. rl is rare binary, save for the upcoming election which will be either biden or trump. is gonna be a choice even for those who do not choose.

from a cold/heartless practical perspective, we did lose a valuable intelligence gathering asset which could warn us o' those threats o' which trump voters have an existential fear.  'stead we got one less intelligence resource at the expense o' a humanitarian crisis as well as a cautionary tale for any considering future alliances with the US-- we are faithless, mercurial and mercenary when it comes to alliances. tough sell.

am not knowing oro situation, but the media must be worse than we imagined if florida is suffering the same fate as the kurds. you need get the word out that not only are the governor and President killing you by the thousands with their incompetent response to covid-19, but that armed forces are chasing you from your homes and murdering you in the streets. terrible that no media, regardless o' skew, is covering the true scope o' the tragedy in florida. 

lets us all pause for a moment o' silence in memoriam o' the heretofore unknown florida tragedy. much like the bowling green massacre, we shall never forget. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Orogun01]

5 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

something somebody heard on alt-right radio? such were never a serious concern. hardly binary: abandon to mass murder or a kurdish state made possible by constant US involvement. rl is rare binary, save for the upcoming election which will be either biden or trump. is gonna be a choice even for those who do not choose.

No, despite your belief we are not alt right nor we listen to radio. We just know the history of Israel, the amount of money that the US has poured keeping them afloat and the multiple incidents where they directly conflicted with the US.

7 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

from a cold/heartless practical perspective, we did lose a valuable intelligence gathering asset which could warn us o' those threats o' which trump voters have an existential fear.  'stead we got one less intelligence resource at the expense o' a humanitarian crisis as well as a cautionary tale for any considering future alliances with the US-- we are faithless, mercurial and mercenary when it comes to alliances. tough sell.

From a political perspective, Trump was an anti war candidate and he knows that the American people are tired of foreign wars. Supporting the Kurds might have sparked another 6 day war (at best) which would look bad on reelection.

 

11 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

am not knowing oro situation, but the media must be worse than we imagined if florida is suffering the same fate as the kurds. you need get the word out that not only are the governor and President killing you by the thousands with their incompetent response to covid-19, but that armed forces are chasing you from your homes and murdering you in the streets. terrible that no media, regardless o' skew, is covering the true scope o' the tragedy in florida. 

lets us all pause for a moment o' silence in memoriam o' the heretofore unknown florida tragedy. much like the bowling green massacre, we shall never forget. 

HA! Good Fun!

You know, you rant a lot and misrepresent your opponent argument...is that a lawyer tactic.? The simpleton jury might be swayed by it but to us you just seem like you're rambling without a point.

[ComradeYellow]

inspired by this thread I did a poll on Twitter.  I didn't get many votes in conjunction with the number of followers I have but apparently Left Twitter would prefer Social Democracy over Anarcho-Capitalism with the government only being there to regulate workers conditions and nothing else.

 

[Gromnir]

47 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

You know, you rant a lot and misrepresent your opponent argument

the hypocrisy is thick. tell us more how your knowledge o' history made US support o' a new kurdish state the binary alternative to the humanitarian crisis which unfolded. fascinating stuff. genuine. the causal link o' hypotheticals all coming together and being described as likely/inevitable will no doubt be entertaining.

am nevertheless moved to compassion for your personal plight. if is analogous to the kurds then is truly a matter which deserves international humanitarian attention. kinda fuzzy on details (no shock there) but if oro and kurds are simpatico save for the ptsd, must be horrific. you have our condolences and prayers that whatever is the vague and horrible tragedy which has befallen oro to put on par with the nightmares suffered by our former allies, then as much as we disagree with your bumbling reason and acceptance o' the unacceptable, you have our pity.

Fox News reported Trump never said that dead US troops were 'suckers,' but the network's national security correspondent said ex-officials confirmed he did

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC

fox news at it again... and when will they cover the florida tragedy?

HA! Good Fun!

ps when we did need go to trial, we much preferred bench trials. judges demand rational and reasonable. have mentioned on these boards more than once our lack o' faith in juries. people tend to believe they got critical thinking skills and is reasonable. have seen little evidence (not just talking juries) that such qualities is widespread.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Gromnir

[Zoraptor]

2 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

I believe it, after their spat with Turkey I'd imagine that a show of military force was needed to maintain order. I would say that there's a great difference between defending strategic allies and invading.
Honestly, it has become baffling when I hear people that see the world in absolutes. Do you really think that invading a country and mobilizing troops at the request the country is the same?

I presume you mean Iran there. While KSA and Turkey are definitely spatting they're physically distanced by the entire length of Iraq, and Turkey's base in Qatar has no offensive capabilities.

As for the rest, you're claiming that Trump is withdrawing from the ME when he's actually just moving the troops around- and refusing to withdraw until he's paid to in Iraq. Worse, he's been explicit that troops are in KSA because protection money was being paid to send them, and the troops in Syria are there not to stop defeated ISIS or protect the Kurds, per Trump himself, but to take its oil (which is, of course, an actual war crime which is why every time he says it you get some general waving their arms and shouting about the mission being stopping an ISIS resurgence instead). He's not withdrawing from the ME any more than he's got North Korea to get rid of nuclear weapons, he's just shouting about having done something he hasn't.

OTOH I also have a lot of difficulty being overly sympathetic to the Kurds. KRG is personal fiefdoms ruled by the utterly corrupt Talebani/ Barzani clans, and Barzani sr in particular is an utterly despicable figure who fought for Saddam against his own people and who is now completely and utterly in Erdogan's pocket, he literally stole billions from oil sold to Turkey while teachers and the like went unpaid in the KRG. He was also primarily responsible for that utter abortion of an independence referendum that resulted in KRG losing 1/3 of its territory and a lot of oil. Meanwhile the Syrian Kurds are bereft of any semblance of the reality of their situation, and have shown twice that they would rather be ethnicly cleansed by Erdogan's mob of cannibals, murderers, extortionist, rapists- and some, I assume are good people child beheading jihadi nutbars too- instead of dealing with the reality that they're less than 10% of the population and simply aren't going to get massively special treatment. And the US whether it's Obama, Trump or Biden leading is simply not going to go to war with Turkey for a bunch of anarchists no matter how many died fighting ISIS.

[Gromnir]

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

4 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

inspired by this thread I did a poll on Twitter.  I didn't get many votes in conjunction with the number of followers I have but apparently Left Twitter would prefer Social Democracy over Anarcho-Capitalism with the government only being there to regulate workers conditions and nothing else.

 

I enjoy these debates but generally people arent sincere about there support or belief in Communism\Socialism and they dont go on for very long or they dont do  any decent research on realistic examples of how Communism\Socialism have been successfully implement in modern times 

But you normally respond with interesting comments so I am hoping you will do it now, what do we mean by " anarcho-capitalism " ?

[ComradeYellow]

21 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

what do we mean by " anarcho-capitalism " ?

Exactly what I said!  Laissez Faire supply side economics with literally no government to speak of.   Horrible on its own accord no question about that but the twist here would be that there would be a government and it would only have ONE purpose and that is to make sure workers have satisfactory living/working/medical conditions.

Some people may not like the sound of it but I assure you it's miles better than neoliberalism.

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

I presume you mean Iran there. While KSA and Turkey are definitely spatting they're physically distanced by the entire length of Iraq, and Turkey's base in Qatar has no offensive capabilities.

As for the rest, you're claiming that Trump is withdrawing from the ME when he's actually just moving the troops around- and refusing to withdraw until he's paid to in Iraq. Worse, he's been explicit that troops are in KSA because protection money was being paid to send them, and the troops in Syria are there not to stop defeated ISIS or protect the Kurds, per Trump himself, but to take its oil (which is, of course, an actual war crime which is why every time he says it you get some general waving their arms and shouting about the mission being stopping an ISIS resurgence instead). He's not withdrawing from the ME any more than he's got North Korea to get rid of nuclear weapons, he's just shouting about having done something he hasn't.

OTOH I also have a lot of difficulty being overly sympathetic to the Kurds. KRG is personal fiefdoms ruled by the utterly corrupt Talebani/ Barzani clans, and Barzani sr in particular is an utterly despicable figure who fought for Saddam against his own people and who is now completely and utterly in Erdogan's pocket, he literally stole billions from oil sold to Turkey while teachers and the like went unpaid in the KRG. He was also primarily responsible for that utter abortion of an independence referendum that resulted in KRG losing 1/3 of its territory and a lot of oil. Meanwhile the Syrian Kurds are bereft of any semblance of the reality of their situation, and have shown twice that they would rather be ethnicly cleansed by Erdogan's mob of cannibals, murderers, extortionist, rapists- and some, I assume are good people child beheading jihadi nutbars too- instead of dealing with the reality that they're less than 10% of the population and simply aren't going to get massively special treatment. And the US whether it's Obama, Trump or Biden leading is simply not going to go to war with Turkey for a bunch of anarchists no matter how many died fighting ISIS.

I have mentioned several times about important new alliances in the ME, this is a good thing and will lead to a more stable and prosperous ME for all but there a few things that may seem different or confusing but these things are part of the better way forward for the ME...and yes there will be periods of instability but this is  normal historically if you look  at changes and events in history that have lead to important social and political changes throughout the world

But for example and pertaining to certain  events we have seen in the ME at the moment and what you guys have mentioned

• Its part of the strategy and important to have US troops in Saudi Arabia. The argument that " USA troops must leave the ME " is long dead in the water the moment Trump brought the US military back into the ME. But this is not a bad thing as there is  the " final " conflict with the hardliners in Iran and this is unavoidable after the Nuclear deal was basically abandoned. But also you must think of the US  military presence as a peace keeping force after the issues with the Iranian hardliners have been resolved ...dont think of it in a belligerent sense 
• Turkey is not the enemy, it plays a very important part in several other important ME developments including being an important staging area for helping to reduce the number of illegal immigrants arriving in the EU and putting huge and unfair pressure on the resources of the EU. They also fought against ISIS and played an important role in the final destruction of the false Caliphate in those long battles to reclaim Mosul and Raqqa ( Mosul took a long time, not Raqqa)
• I do feel sorry for the Kurds because they played such an important role in defeating ISIS but they were never promised their own homeland  and the USA cannot grant them this for a number of reasons. The US cannot and should not tell Turkey to give up sovereign Turkish land to the Kurds. Its not going to happen so unfortunately the Kurd's made an incorrect assumption they would achieve there own homeland after ISIS was defeated. The USA didn't betray the Kurds because it cannot grant things it doesnt control
• ISIS is always the enemy of all ME countries and official governments, for example I witnessed something I thought was impossible where Gulf State military forces and Iranian forces worked together to defeat the ISIS Caliphate .....you must know how bad ISIS was for Iran and Saudi Arabia to have a common enemy  

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by BruceVC

[Guard Dog]

[BruceVC]

19 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Exactly what I said!  Laissez Faire supply side economics with literally no government to speak of.   Horrible on its own accord no question about that but the twist here would be that there would be a government and it would only have ONE purpose and that is to make sure workers have satisfactory living/working/medical conditions.

Some people may not like the sound of it but I assure you it's miles better than neoliberalism.

I would need much more details to be able to realistically comment in any kind of constructive way, but just the idea of any government being concerned primarily with workers rights and worker conditions make me very nervous and physically ill at what that could mean 

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, Guard Dog said:

This is so cute 

[Guard Dog]

Too funny not to share!

[BruceVC]

8 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Too funny not to share!

I genuinely an not sure  what the joke or point is around what we should get from this, there are several things I read from this and none of them may be the same as what others think?

For example I find it annoying and historically inaccurate and revisionist to suggest Washington did nothing significant to achieve the success story of the USA? Yes he kept slaves but basically everyone did in his circles  but  that is not why he should be remembered. His positive contribution far outweighs any bad he did ...and of course we always assess what " bad "  a person did in a honest and objective way 

I can also defend Lee but I wont because I understand the general negative sentiment towards him and since Im not American it seems inappropriate to defend Lee

 

[Guard Dog]

 You are overthinking it. Both Washington & Lee led an armed rebellion against "the state" of their day. No judgments are made on why or whether it was justified or anything. Merely that it happened. 

[BruceVC]

12 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

 You are overthinking it. Both Washington & Lee led an armed rebellion against "the state" of their day. No judgments are made on why or whether it was justified or anything. Merely that it happened. 

Thanks for clarifying, I thought I wasnt getting it 

[Maedhros]

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/515244-dhs-to-label-white-supremacists-as-the-most-persistent-and-lethal

"“We judge that ideologically-motivated lone offenders and small groups will pose the greatest terrorist threat to the Homeland through 2021, with white supremacist extremists presenting the most lethal threat,” it adds."

Not BLM and Antifa? Someone's about to lose their job.

[Skarpen]

12 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/515244-dhs-to-label-white-supremacists-as-the-most-persistent-and-lethal

"“We judge that ideologically-motivated lone offenders and small groups will pose the greatest terrorist threat to the Homeland through 2021, with white supremacist extremists presenting the most lethal threat,” it adds."

Not BLM and Antifa? Someone's about to lose their job.

I doubt that. Just another examples of politics interfering with researchers and science. There are numerous fields you cannot even touch or publish results that are nkt in line with political correctness because you will be fired even though you just want to genuinely conduct a research on a subject without any underlying biases. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Skarpen