Politics - wait for it... wait for it... 2020 isn't over yet

[ComradeYellow]

13 hours ago, Malcador said:

Hence my question.  Is a Federal Post Office some sort of onerous infringement on liberty ?

I'd say economic domination and exploitation (Which is not even remotely discussed in current American political discourse) AKA big government working closely with CEO's at the expense of the little guy, is far more infringement on liberty than the friggin' post office.  It's so typical, ignore the elephant (no pun intended) in the room and focus on petty crap like the post office to to try to keep peoples minds off of economic injustice.

[ComradeYellow]

Yeah ok, I laughed.

[Volourn]

No way Trump thought that up.

[Guard Dog]

$5,630,859,000,000: Federal Spending Has Already Set Annual Record; Deficit at Record $2,807,295,000,000

It's cute how everyone is arguing aver who will win the "most important election in history" while meanwhile.... tick tock tick tock

[ComradeYellow]

12 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

$5,630,859,000,000: Federal Spending Has Already Set Annual Record; Deficit at Record $2,807,295,000,000

It's cute how everyone is arguing aver who will win the "most important election in history" while meanwhile.... tick tock tick tock

Both parties are complicit on spending $740,000,000,000 annually on the military because the U.S. government constantly needs a threat to justify corporate expansionism.  First it was Commies, then it was Radical Islamist Terrorists, now it's...Commies again! 

So perhaps maybe if we curb military spending and focus on creating state sponsored programs that will generate revenue rather than filling individual pockets perhaps it may be a start.

State enterprises can be very profitable and generate national revenue.

[Guard Dog]

2 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Both parties are complicit on spending $740,000,000,000 annually on the military because the U.S. government constantly needs a threat to justify corporate expansionism.  First it was Commies, then it was Radical Islamist Terrorists, now it's...Commies again! 

So perhaps maybe if we curb military spending and focus on creating state sponsored programs that will generate revenue rather than filling individual pockets perhaps it may be a start.

State enterprises can be very profitable and generate national revenue.

1. Yes
2. Yes, no
3. No

Edited August 13, 2020 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

4 hours ago, Amentep said:

I'm not sure what you are debating? I already conceded that you were correct in that the 2006 act was a bipartisan one. I've then explained why I phrased it as a republican plan, incorrectly, and also provided context - when asked - about why libertarians are for dismantling the post office.

I am not claiming a mysterious libertarian conspiracy in 2006 against the post office.

after you conceded, you wrote:

My understanding - which may be wrong - was it was authored by Republican Tom Davis and that a portion of the Republican party (and Libertarians) have wanted to get rid of the post office, hence my phrasing.

the 2006 libertarians at the time were non existent in Congress save as perhaps having some small influence on Democrat legislators. there appeared to be continuing confusion on the part o' amentep. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Malcador]

Never did read Don Quixote.

[Guard Dog]

 

[Amentep]

36 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

after you conceded, you wrote:

My understanding - which may be wrong - was it was authored by Republican Tom Davis and that a portion of the Republican party (and Libertarians) have wanted to get rid of the post office, hence my phrasing.

the 2006 libertarians at the time were non existent in Congress save as perhaps having some small influence on Democrat legislators. there appeared to be continuing confusion on the part o' amentep. 

HA! Good Fun!

Yes, I did, I was trying to explain why I attributed the act to the Republicans after you correctly pointed out the bipartisan support.  The parenthetical wasn't intended to imply the Libertarians were involved in 2006 or that the libertarians and republicans had joined forces against the post office in this instance.  It was there to state that there was a long movement within parts of the US that were/are against the post office, and that one individual from one of those political organizations had proposed the legislation.  Clearly I failed in making what I was saying clear.

[Maedhros]

 

@Guard Dog

I don't know if I agree with point 3. State enterprises CAN be very profitable - but it's hard if politicians do their best to make them fail so they can score political points. "We need to dismantle State Enterprise X! It doesn't generate profit!" "...well yeah, you underfunded it, appointed your incompetent friend as its leader and sacked half of their workers, duh." 

Besides, a state enterprise has the advantage of not necessarily needing to be profit-based, giving huge potential for quality if not hindered by politics. As a wine nerd I'm thankful for our state-owned wine monopoly stores that are in another league than 99% of all wine shops in the world.

There's also our national oil fund...another example of how privatization isn't always the smart move. There is no set rule here. It can work.

(But possibly not in a country where everyone largely distrusts the government, I'll concede that!)

Edited August 13, 2020 by Maedhros

[Gromnir]

Trump says he opposes funding USPS because of mail-in voting

...

"nothing matters anymore."

HA! Good Fun!

ps @Maedhros there is a certain absurdity in expecting public endeavours be profitable, and our current pandemic situation should drive home such a recognition. ca and USA stockpiles o' ppe were allowed to become obsolete (jerry brown and newsome in ca, obama and trump for the US.) those stockpiles were never gonna generate revenue, but am betting all but the most hardcore libertarians agree such stockpiles shoulda' been maintained. sure, perhaps gd believes every hospital and citizen should maintain their own such reserves as 'posed to being forced by the government to pay for such, but such a solution is impractical and is actual less expensive for the government to procure and maintain as the governments may buy and store in bulk. count on individuals to be responsible leaves us where we are today. is what a libertarian victory looks like?

Edited August 13, 2020 by Gromnir

[Hurlshort]

I certainly haven't done much research on the topic, but it seems like we have a pretty good system of mail delivery in the US. The USPS plays a critical role in domestic service, but you still have companies like FedEd, UPS, and DHL able to compete for business. I'm not sure why need to mess with it. 

[Gromnir]

37 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

I certainly haven't done much research on the topic, but it seems like we have a pretty good system of mail delivery in the US. The USPS plays a critical role in domestic service, but you still have companies like FedEd, UPS, and DHL able to compete for business. I'm not sure why need to mess with it. 

pre 2006, the post office were paying for veterans benefits of its employees. why? honest, we would need go back and look 'cause it were never o' particular interest to us. were an old rule which cost the post office billions.  were a bunch o' post office issues such as the veterans benefits, as well as basic cost o' business practices, which made sense pre ww2, but were kinda poster child examples o' government inefficiency; had folks on both sides o' the aisle at a loss to explain why such stoopid were allowed to continue. 

is many complaints 'bout post office pension funding which is kinda being presented to the public distorted. pretty much every company needs cover pensions o' employees. 'course private companies can default, so it is a bit different. the biggest difference is actual how the post office covers employee medical post retirement and the need to fund the pensions in a ten-year period... a funding requirement which started right when the recession hit. many progressives don't like being critical o' socialized medicine and showing an example where the post office got kneecapped by needing to cover medical o' retirees does not play as well as blame bush or blame republicans.

Congress fixed the post office in just the wrong way at just the wrong time and it ain't gonna be fixed regardless o' who trump appoints as postmaster or by executive order. Congress needs get off their arse and deal with the problems they created.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 13, 2020 by Gromnir

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

Trump says he opposes funding USPS because of mail-in voting

...

"nothing matters anymore."

Not a bad take for the Postmaster General job, ~$2MM.

[Guard Dog]

6 hours ago, Gromnir said:

 

ps @Maedhros there is a certain absurdity in expecting public endeavours be profitable, and our current pandemic situation should drive home such a recognition. ca and USA stockpiles o' ppe were allowed to become obsolete (jerry brown and newsome in ca, obama and trump for the US.) those stockpiles were never gonna generate revenue, but am betting all but the most hardcore libertarians agree such stockpiles shoulda' been maintained. sure, perhaps gd believes every hospital and citizen should maintain their own such reserves as 'posed to being forced by the government to pay for such, but such a solution is impractical and is actual less expensive for the government to procure and maintain as the governments may buy and store in bulk. count on individuals to be responsible leaves us where we are today. is what a libertarian victory looks like?

Sure, because governments do such a great job of managing such things right? The worst thing about government service is you can f--k up without consequence. It's odd that you just reminded me the government is made up of the people while at the same time expressing distrust in the abilities of people to manage themselves without going crazy. Are those different people? As to your point here, government has a job to do... usually it does it poorly. So a wise person understands they need to look out for themselves. That does not make government completely dispensable or anything. 

@Maedhros I use the US mail all the time. But when I had something important I absolutely needed to get somewhere overnight I used Fed Ex. Why? Fed Ex IS concerned about getting my repeat business because profits DO matter. Profits motivate higher performance. You perform better you earn more. With the mail it gets there when it gets there. 

The VA in the USA is absolute and utter s--t. Why? Because they don't care about money. Waste it. Spend it. Lose it. The government just gives you more. Vets die in your care? Who cares? Where are they gonna go? We're the VA. 

[Malcador]

https://apnews.com/083ef5555ef82c015e2f37f1822c0d78

Sort an amusing distraction

[Gromnir]

1 minute ago, Guard Dog said:

Sure, because governments do such a great job of managing such things right? The worst thing about government service is you can f--k up without consequence. It's odd that you just reminded me the government is made up of the people while at the same time expressing distrust in the abilities of people to manage themselves without going crazy. Are those different people? As to your point here, government has a job to do... usually it does it poorly. So a wise person understands they need to look out for themselves. That does not make government completely dispensable or anything. 

 

public libraries is a waste 'cause is no profit in 'em. seriously gonna count on the good will o' the sooper rich to fill the void if government were to have abandoned such?

need something more dramatic? child protective services? is not a profitable model.

perhaps something which gd can appreciate personal. our national park system run as a for profit model? let disney and others compete for contracts and those parks which ain't deemed valuable enough by private enterprise may be sold as grazing land or perhaps tract housing development.

literal thousands o' such services, and many government functions is happening everyday which go entire unnoticed. but god bless gd's america. god protect us from gd's america.

the vast number o' government workers do their job competent. large businesses sure don't perform with less corruption than government entities, and much o' the complaints 'bout government inefficiency ignores how businesses doing same or similar jobs rare perform better, take prisons for example, 'cause privatization o' prisons were such a fabulous idea.  wonder what level o' education kids in poor communities would find for their children if schools were complete run on a for profit model? but hey, its the fault o' poor parents if their kids is not better educated in gd's america. if this administration shoulda' taught gd one thing it is that rely on private enterprise in times o' crisis is hardly the surefire solution to any and all problems. whether is disaster relief in puerto rico or ppe production for covid-19, private industry and individual responsibility has proven to be anything but the solution. need another story 'bout jared kushner and his champions o' industry who were gonna solve 2020 ppe and testing crisis? at least with government running such there is increased accountability to voters... or at least there would be in any other administration.

how gd can see pandemic situation and not recognize how naive (bordering on obtuse) it is to rely on individual responsibility for the making o' sensible long-term investments which will benefit society as a whole as 'posed to some kinda profit driven calculus is curious at best? is a whole host o' functions too large, too unprofitable or too temporal remote for private individuals busy paying monthly rent and businesses wedded to quarterly report to manage responsible. is government also failing to be proper forward thinking? sure is, but gd is instead advocating the trump model which has  states and private entities fight 'mongst themselves for finite resources. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

gd looks at mistakes made by Congress with the post office or the fed with ppe stockpiles and his solution is to nuke it all and send us back to state of nature... and by now am certain you know what hobbes said 'bout the state of nature. there is a point where slavish devotion to just about any ideology will make a person appear foolish. look at current pandemic situation and how business and individuals has responded to a glaring needs and gd still manages to cling to his shtick. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

@Gromnir apparently you have me confused for some kind of anarchist. I've never said government was completely dispensable. In fact I have frequently over the years quoted Thomas Paine that it is a necessary evil. Even as I point out how many times it is an intolerable one. You can be critical of it's faults, watchful of it's overreach, and desirous of it's limitation without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 

I frequently use and even donate to the Tipton County library.  And I can tell you for a fact if you are looking for something specific you are more likely to find it on Amazon or B&N. That does not mean we should get rid of it. Never said any such a thing. Fed Ex is faster, more reliable, all around better than the mail. Does not mean the USPS is useless. Never said any such a thing.

By the way, there are numerous state and county parks in TN and AR that are managed by private contractors. All of them overseen by the state.  There seems to be this misbegotten idea that once a for profit private company takes over a park or a prison they go bast**** crazy and ruin it. They are the employees of the governing body that hired them. The standards of upkeep and maintenance that they are required to do are in their contract. If you hire a man to mow your yard it does not become HIS yard. It does not mean he gets to make decisions on whether your backyard should be sold off. Park land belongs to the state, county, city, US Department of the Interior, whatever. No one is suggesting selling it off. Where did you even get that one?

BATF, Department of Children & Families (state stuff), the VA, "insert agency name here" has f----d up so badly at one time r another people actually died from the error. What happens when a government agency f--ks up? Nothing usually. An investigation that lasts years, costs millions and disappears quietly. Maybe someone gets fired. When a private entity f--ks up and people die there are lawsuits, criminal charges, all appropriate usually. 

As for the "sooper" rich you of all people know how small a constraint governments are on them. When Pfizer wanted Suzette Kelo's home they didn't hire mercenaries, They bought off a town government to take it for them.  

As for the pandemic, the government is doing a great job there too isn't it?

As for personal responsibility, the ants don't owe the grasshopper an apology. 

[Hurlshort]

4 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

 The worst thing about government service is you can f--k up without consequence. 

This would hold more weight if the auto industry and banks weren't a decade removed from being 'too big to fail'. 

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

  

As for the pandemic, the government is doing a great job there too isn't it?

 

dear lord. missing the forest. ny were left dealing with an international problem all on their lonesome. facing a crisis o' insufficient hospital beds, ny made a choice. you think situation woulda' been better w/o government input at all? if were left up to private nursing homes and private hospitals to decide who got limited resources, who do you think woulda' received limited resources?  when the covid-19 outbreak first hit and there were literal less than 100 tests for all o' oklahoma for an entire week, the oklahoma basketball team managed to get tested, all of 'em. so, who gets beds and medical care. who woulda' received ppe which were in short supply?

you suggest ny is some kinda cautionary tale and we marvel at your inability to consider what woulda' been the result w/o ny making choices as 'posed to state o' nature. yes, ny screwed the pooch, many times, and there is eventual gonna be an accounting for those mistakes. private business? they lose their contract and perhaps get sued... but you can only sue the corporation to the extent o' its assets, which has left many a plaintiff high and dry.  btw, when ny shoulda' been receiving support and guidance from cdc and supplies from national stockpiles, they were instead scrambling to make sense o' unknowns with dramatic insufficient resources. precise at the time when they needed the benefits o' a national government, they were sent forth in gd's beloved state o' nature to compete against every other state and every other nation.

btw, fact your story mentions nursing homes shoulda' given gd pause. private nursing homes w/o significant government oversight has been an enduring nightmare for many a family considering what to do 'bout an aged or unwell family member who cannot live alone. the for profit model tends to fail the old and infirm and the mental handicapped. conditions at many nursing homes is frightening bad in spite o' heavy-handed government interference, but we hate to imagine what would be the state o' a few such institutions if we just let market forces decide success and failure.

the rest is just... weird. parks and libraries is economic losers is ok, but the post office and ppe stockpiles... so, if gd supports a program, then it deserves government support, but if gd doesn't... 

hubble telescope? literal no profit expected, though some imaging innovations ended up being applied to early breast cancer detection. go figure. every american at the time had to pony up approx $1.60 to make hubble a reality. leave up to gd to decide whether hubble is important enough? course not.

so how does western societies tend to decide which programs deserve the collective resources o' a community or state of fed? they Vote. is the democratic freaking process which has gd and Gromnir and hurl and amentep and shady and countless other citizens coming to some kinda agreement 'bout which stuff is important enough.

weird.

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

31 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

This would hold more weight if the auto industry and banks weren't a decade removed from being 'too big to fail'. 

Yeah, there doesn't exactly seem to be massive responsibility taken by those in high office at big corporations. A list of CEOs at big corps who have been actively fired would be short, those fired without a massive golden handshake even shorter. They almost always 'resign', with a massive pay out.

Here at least poor performance by State Owned Enterprises almost always results in a worse result for those responsible precisely because it's owned by the state. If they're badly run politicians' careers are badly effected, so poor performance tends to get stamped out. OTOH corporate leadership tends to get longer to perform, and way more soft landings for failure (eg Theo Spierings at Fonterra; 8 million dollar severance pay- best part of a billion dollars of write downs and loss associated with him. And while that was not entirely his fault he was running a literal monopoly)

[Volourn]

This is either epic trolling by anti BLMers or just another example of what is wrong BLm and why it is an evil organization.

 

Also:

BLM wants the police defunded and canceled.

 

City defunds police which leads to massive cuts.

 

BLACK police chief resigns.

 

BLM claims police resigning is because of racism.

 

LMAO LMAO LMAO

 

On top of that. BLM has murdered a young boy in broad daylight and they are saying it was justice. EVIL.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Volourn

[Malcador]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/08/israel-uae-announce-normalisation-relations-200813145645861.html

Sort of odd to see this sold as "peace in the ME" as I don't really recall UAE being so hostile to Israel. 

Also,  https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/511878-national-security-adviser-says-trump-should-be-a-front-runner-for as expected.

 

[Volourn]

The deal shouldn't be surprising. Whatever side of the Isreal-Palestine debate you are on, the ME/Muslim coutnries there don't care about Palestine. They don't even treat Palestinians who live in their own countries all that humanely. The only reason why those countries care about the conflict at all is because of how much the populace and governments hate Jews..

Also, it is so intellectually dishonest to see Palestinians or anyone whining about how Isreal 'stole' Palestinian land.  That was Isreal land first and was stolen from them. Plus, modern 'Palestine' is a relatively  modern creation. It reminds me of Natives whining about the evil white man stealing 'their' land while a) proclaiming the land belongs to 'everybody' and b) native tribes had a long history of 'stealing' land from other tribes.

 

Nobel Peace Price - like every other award in existence - is a joke. It be fitting for someone who bragged about murdering someone in public would win it. L0L But, it's a popularity award so Trump is out of luck. <>