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Politics XXXVIII (A Nontotient)


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3 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

@Gromnir

The whole thing with different policing units is confusing. Local police, state police, sheriff, federal, various special units, etc. 

How do you monitor and manage all that mix of overlapping authorities? ūüėĪ

you don't, which is the point. while comey were still a respected director o' fbi with many years o' exemplary service and bipartisan support, he were asked 'bout gun violence statistics while testifying before Congress. comey couldn't give answers 'cause he didn't have answers. the head o' fbi did not have accurate numbers for gun violence in the US. just one example. fbi isn't what oro thinks it is, and it sure as hell doesn't manage or coordinate state and local police.

folks need to learn there ain't no The Police in the USA. even americans is woeful misinformed 'bout the authority the fed has over local law enforcement practices, training, spending and activities.

the intent o' US system is for police to be more direct answerable to the people who vote in sheriffs or city council/mayor elections. the further is the seat o' power from which police is directed, the greater the potential for abuse, or so believed the framers.  what is to stop the Fed from sending in a national police if the issue in question is localized to portland? for better or worse, mayors and sheriffs in portland is gonna be far more sensitive to citizens o' portland than will the President or william barr. 

as to insurrection act, don't rely on fox. when used in past, the act has almost always been utilized by the President with approval o' a state governor, the main reason being you either need governor approval, or the activities being curtailed by the Fed need be o' a type and nature it is impracticable for states to address. is not simply a matter o' state unwillingness to use heavy-handed force which triggers. some function o' scope or type must make implausible for local to handle the matter. 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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31 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

 

folks need to learn there ain't no The Police in the USA. even americans is woeful misinformed 'bout the authority the fed has over local law enforcement practices, training, spending and activities.

 

One can always hope...

 

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took us a few years to appreciate stewart copeland.

regardless, perhaps metaphor o' such a successful three-member band is that sometimes less police is better?

apologies, were admitted just stretching to make more police relevant in politics thread.

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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To go with a comment from the Author Elizabeth Moon

Troops in full body armor and uniforms with no identifying patches snatching people off the streets of an American city and stuffing them into unmarked vehicles.... Taking them to unknown destinations for an unstated purpose. Attacking journalists. Said to be "federal" troops but not which agency. Authorized by a president in serious need of regaining popularity, against the wishes of that state's governor and that city's mayor, who claims the female governor of the state is "weak" and he is "strong." Clearly their purpose is to spread terror in the city and silence questions about their presence and their actions. American Gestapo.

Not a movie. Not a TV show. Real life. Portland, Oregon, July 2020.

In the midst of a pandemic nowhere near being under control, in a country increasingly unsettled by right-wing white-supremacist violence tolerated by this Administration, while the president and his toady Attorney General slander those who stand against racism, police brutality against Blacks and Hispanics, the GOP continues its assault on all who disagree, who protest, who argue. They bemoan the loss of a "civility" which they never displayed to anyone but themselves. They admire, support, and protect the would-be dictator who lies, breaks the laws, and commits treason and has now unleashed unknown numbers of unknown armed men on an American city.

It could be my town next. It could be yours. Any state, any town, that this president chooses to target for any reason. And it is not right.

We saw it in Washington D.C., the pretense of "violent mob" (that wasn't violent, but was attacked with violence, even to the point of physically attacking priests in their own churchyard and ordering them out, so his president could pose for a photo-op without asking or being given permission to use that church as a backdrop.) Now it's in Oregon...a demonstration by this corrupt and vicious Administration that it has the power to invade and seize citizens anywhere it wants to. And it wants the whole country....for itself, for its biggest donors, and for its foreign master.

Choose your hill, mark it. Then wear your mask to protect yourself and others, and be kind to those you love. Help those you can. Don't spread any of the diseases going around: COVID-19, fear, hatred, lies. Mix your anger with compassion and drink it down. As Gandalf said to Frodo: "All we have to do is decide what to do with the time given to us..."

 

CBC- Portland Mayor demands Trump remove federal agents from the city following detentions

"Oregon's attorney general plans to file lawsuit, citing civil rights violations"

Edited by Raithe
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"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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On 7/17/2020 at 8:13 PM, Volourn said:

It is 2020. Lawlessness is now the way to go depending what side you are on.

 

NYC mayor had dozens of cops protecting a BLM mural, while a bunch of murders and crimes were happening in NYC, and had the gall to blame the cops even though the cops weren't involved in said crimes. This after  threatening/making cuts to the police budgets and telling them to stand down and let crimes like assault, robbery, and murder happen.

volo can I ask you  an important question that matters to me so I understand your sentiment and overall view about BLM\Antifa. 

Firstly I agree there are elements within Antifa, it may be most of the movement that is involved in violence and creating general anarchy for reasons that dont make sense to me when I hear some of there " leaders "  explain what the movement is about. One of the criticisms I have is there is no official leadership structure which means no one takes real responsibility for any criminal acts the group commits like public violence and damage to properties. I read a view one of the unofficial spokesmen had where he openly admitted his definition of Antifa was where it was " okay to damage property and use violence " because the reality of the USA demanded that ....I reject this as there is never a justification for most public acts of violence in any Democracy where you have laws, Constitutions and legal ways to raise concerns. I am not impressed with Antifa generally and I am happy if anyone can explain what I am misunderstanding about the movement 

But BLM is not Antifa and we should separate the 2 groups with our views. There are well meaning people in BLM and I know they dont support violence like Antifa

So based on this what is the reason you raise issues around these groups, I think everyone would agree that definitely there would be some examples of white people being unfairly targeted by Antifa. This is similar to right wing groups attacking minority groups, I dont mean mass shootings but people get beaten up just for being a certain race and that is never right

But since we all know this why are you raising examples, I am not trying to tell you what you should be posting ..that would be condescending. I am actually interested in your own reasons for bringing things to every ones attention. 

In summary do you want people to admit movements like BLM\Antifa  have some members who commit violence against white people? As I said earlier I agree with that but its not everyone in BLM and Antifa I have other issues with that I mentioned.

 

 

'

 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Got into a political discussion at the VFW dinner last night. I was just conversing but it got... heated. I wonder if they will "forget" to invite me next time. 

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Get off my lawn!

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40 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Got into a political discussion at the VFW dinner last night. I was just conversing but it got... heated. I wonder if they will "forget" to invite me next time. 

Can you share what  got potentially heated, its just I know how much effort you put into Veterans and supporting these gatherings so I am surprised a topic could create such anxiety?

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Got into a political discussion at the VFW dinner last night. I was just conversing but it got... heated. I wonder if they will "forget" to invite me next time. 

You'd think they would be numb to politics by now.

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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39 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Can you share what  got potentially heated, its just I know how much effort you put into Veterans and supporting these gatherings so I am surprised a topic could create such anxiety?

People who don't fit neatly into one of the two established political categories in this country are hard for the ones who do to understand. The VFW is TRUMP country (capitals intentional). Half those old guys think he was sent by God himself to save us all and all he does is with divine mandate. Or something. 

Well, my opinions of the Orange Menace are well known to all of you. 

So, anyway they were going on about Trump and his executive orders and how it's about time someone took things in hand and what not. Of course I told them what I think. Next thing you know I'm being questioned, with some hostility, about how as a veteran I could support Biden. I don't I told them. In fact the only thing I hate more than the Republicans is the goddamned Democrats. For whatever reason that didn't resonate and it went on like that for a time.

No hard feelings on my part. I'm not sure that is true all around. People really are too uptight about politics. It matters far less than most folks will admit. 

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I'm not sure how being a veteran should endear you to Biden or Trump. Neither served. Trump's kids didn't serve. Biden's son served, so I guess that is a plus. :shrugz:

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7 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

I'm not sure how being a veteran should endear you to Biden or Trump. Neither served. Trump's kids didn't serve. Biden's son served, so I guess that is a plus. :shrugz:

Many vets feel that the Democrats have been and still are disdainful and disrespectful of vets and the military in general. That opinion is not without some validation. But, obviously it does not apply to all Dems. 

Do you recall the Obama admin's "special instructions" to local police regarding veterans back in '09. That is still discussed to this very day.

Edited by Guard Dog
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35 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

I'm not sure how being a veteran should endear you to Biden or Trump. Neither served. Trump's kids didn't serve. Biden's son served, so I guess that is a plus. :shrugz:

The people who end up in the US military lean heavily towards positions in line with the Republican party, and such positions have led to an embrace of Trump that is similar to a certain golden calf. It isn't unique to military veterans, and you could probably find the same thing with other groups who tend towards said positions.

"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlshot

"I'm fine with humanity being wiped out" - majestic

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1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

Many vets feel that the Democrats have been and still are disdainful and disrespectful of vets and the military in general. That opinion is not without some validation. But, obviously it does not apply to all Dems. 

Do you recall the Obama admin's "special instructions" to local police regarding veterans back in '09. That is still discussed to this very day.

Yes this is a real  perception and there are examples of how you can see how the actions and certain political decisions made under Obama could easily be seen as "Democrats dont respect the military " yet sometimes certain negative views were based more on some generalizations people made about the US military which never helps

I dont  think Trump has a real connection to the US military but as usual he has this  uncanny ability to understand and is  generally good at identifying certain views on the ground and then he addresses these views through both speeches and actual policy. And there are several examples where Trump has correctly supported the US military which explains the support he gets from veterans and people in the army generally  

Edited by BruceVC

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

People who don't fit neatly into one of the two established political categories in this country are hard for the ones who do to understand. The VFW is TRUMP country (capitals intentional). Half those old guys think he was sent by God himself to save us all and all he does is with divine mandate. Or something. 

Well, my opinions of the Orange Menace are well known to all of you. 

So, anyway they were going on about Trump and his executive orders and how it's about time someone took things in hand and what not. Of course I told them what I think. Next thing you know I'm being questioned, with some hostility, about how as a veteran I could support Biden. I don't I told them. In fact the only thing I hate more than the Republicans is the goddamned Democrats. For whatever reason that didn't resonate and it went on like that for a time.

No hard feelings on my part. I'm not sure that is true all around. People really are too uptight about politics. It matters far less than most folks will admit. 

What an interesting story and not unusual considering the political reality and  ideological views that some in the USA have

You probably will be aware of what I am going to say but I want to share something with you that I have come to understand about the Trump presidency and what it meant and how Trump did win. Its been some good developments and some bad but Trump has definitely made some things worse like the way the media is seen and this " political dichotomy "   between the left and right that is normal but under Trump there has been even less reasonable discussions and people finding common ground.....

Trump also has been consistent in his support for certain American institutions and groups ...like the US military. He has been a supporter of the importance of the contribution veterans make and also in most cases stood by the current US army in ways other presidents may have unintentionally  neglected. That is why groups like your veteran friends like Trump and to them that is important. They dont follow the Trump theater and the  world of " alternative facts",  he has restored certain degrees of dignity to the military so they would naturally support him

But since the virus the greatest obvious Trump success was the heightened strength of the USA economy that is something Trumps economic advisors did well by implementing several unorthodox economic policies that did work.....but all that is gone and to make things worse Trump has also been part of the reasons there hasnt been consistent and obvious virus best practice implemented consistency and directly from the White House. He is not the primary reason as I predict history will be very critical of other groups like certain Republican governors, the lack of common sense from people on the ground in some states, the Trump base  the " mask conspiracy theories and sadly the BLM protests which from day had many people suddenly ignoring the virus. All these groups have played a part in contributing towards how the virus has spread in the USA 

So these realities have created a situation where its unlikely Trump will win in 2020. But when it comes to some of his normal supporters like the Veterans I have noticed a strange response to Trumps impending loss. I would  have assumed people would just reconcile why you voted for Trump, the good he did but external factors have changed this so  you dont want to overreact to the success Biden is seeing.....

Biden will win not because Trump failed  or that he didnt deliver on certain campaign promises that matter to  some of his supporters but rather the virus outcome and Trumps lack of understanding how the virus should be contained

So going forward IMO its best not to get into debates with groups like the Veterans because they see Trump failing as  a reflection on what he did for them, they shouldnt see it like this but most Trump supporters do. Exactly how they responded to you is what you will see......it becomes a binary choice for them but in fact as you mentioned you are very far removed from someone who " support Biden " automatically just because you have other reasonable issues with Trump 

People like the Veterans are well meaning and there legacy will always matter but they will view Trump losing in a much more personal way that it really matters

I hope this makes sense because I am not sure I am explaining my point properly?

Lastly I would hate to see someone like you read too much into how people assumed certain things about you and you then decide to stop putting the effort you normally put into these institutions. That would be a real loss ......the VFW is the same it always was its just there personal views on Trump and the current bedlam we see in some examples of the USA political reality that is potentially controversial. Dont change your normal support because of this misunderstanding 


  

Edited by BruceVC

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.‚ÄĚ -¬† George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Just a reminder there will be names on your ballot this November other than Trump & Biden

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Get off my lawn!

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"if you criticize Drump you must be a libcuck"

 

And, if you are remotely neutral (or at least not histrionic) or positive towards him, you are insta KKK Hitler Nazi Racist.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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6 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

 

Do you recall the Obama admin's "special instructions" to local police regarding veterans back in '09. That is still discussed to this very day.

ok, we will bite. what were the veteran-specific special instructions the obama administration delivered to local police o' all things in the first year o' his administration? 

we could google, but am curious to see where gd goes with this.

HA! Good Fun!

 

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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29 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

ok, we will bite. what were the veteran-specific special instructions the obama administration delivered to local police o' all things in the first year o' his administration? 

we could google, but am curious to see where gd goes with this.

HA! Good Fun!

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123992665198727459

It came from a 2009 DHS memo. The gist is local police should pay special attention to returning combat veterans, and other groups the left wingers might call "reactionary" (meaning not them IMO). It seems the DHS figured these sorts of people would be likely to be recruited into "militia groups" and other so called "domestic terrorists". It was worded in a rather blunt and ham fisted way that pissed off the American Legion and a lot of vets, myself included.  Janet Napolitano apologized for it in an unapologetic kind of way. 

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Kinda reminds me of when PM BLACKACE here in Kanada called all construction workers  sexists, rapists, and sexual assaulters. LMAO

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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49 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

yeah, am recalling the smear job, but is a reason you can't find other articles other than opinion pieces and blogs.

in early 2000s, the army were concerned 'bout high incidence o' vets in prison for violent crime. veterans were no more likely to be in prison, but they were far and away more likely to be in for the serious stuff. the US army started a 2004 study which were completed in 2009 and discovered veterans, particularly combat veterans, were not only more likely to commit suicide, suffer ptsd, and a whole host o' other unfortunate conditions, but they were also more likely to become radicalized. 

describe as special instructions to local police is highly misleading. in spite o' grossly overdramatized reporting, the result o' the bush administration study recommended, amongst other things, informing law enforcement o' risk factors and behaviours which should be considered when attempting to identify radicalization before such stuff resulted in mass shootings and whatnot.

being a veteran were just one factor law enforcement were directed to be cognizant o' when considering early id o' radicalization. being discharged involuntary from military were an even more noteworthy factor.

and yeah, there were perhaps at least a couple example o' overzealous cops detaining veterans 'cause they listened to wrong music or similar nonsense.

*shrug*

bush era program were meant to identify micah johnson and gavin long as well as dylann roof before they went over the edge. 

unfortunate, 'cause o' overreaction, no similar program has ever been implemented and as such many veterans with ptsd fail to get help they need. any identification program which suggests veterans could be a danger not just to themselves but others is presumptively a fail.

HA! Good Fun!

ps special instructions is a ridiculous way to reference. were no direction to action per se. were informational and offered recommendations, but nothing approaching instructions or directives 'cause such woulda' required an act o' Congress or the like in any event.

 

 

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Special instruction was a mischaracterization on my part. It was a memo from the DHS to law enforcement agencies IIRC. I'm writing on an internet forum here. This isn't a EMES ( a type of document I frequently write at work) where I'm agonizing over every word choice. 

If the goal is to "help" vets with PTSD  law enforcement is NOT the agency to reach out to. That would be the VA which is a complete and utter s--t show and always has been for as long as I've known about it. Not holding my breath because the US government is incapable of doing anything without totally f-----g it up. 

I once had a copy of that memo and it was moderately insulting. It wasn't so much WHAT was said as how but it's been a hell of a long time. Really the only thing I remember  is that it happened and it was literally the first thing the DHS under Obama did. Not a good first step at all. 

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I vaguely remember having to sit through safety briefs on gangs and right wing groups infiltrating the military with more emphasis on the right wing groups. This was all before Obama as I got out in December of 08.

Free games updated 3/6/19

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Was a good interview with Wallace   - https://www.foxnews.com/politics/transcript-fox-news-sunday-interview-with-president-trump

As always reading Trump is more painful than hearing him

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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