Gromnir Posted July 18, 2020 Posted July 18, 2020 3 hours ago, Darkpriest said: @Gromnir The whole thing with different policing units is confusing. Local police, state police, sheriff, federal, various special units, etc. How do you monitor and manage all that mix of overlapping authorities? you don't, which is the point. while comey were still a respected director o' fbi with many years o' exemplary service and bipartisan support, he were asked 'bout gun violence statistics while testifying before Congress. comey couldn't give answers 'cause he didn't have answers. the head o' fbi did not have accurate numbers for gun violence in the US. just one example. fbi isn't what oro thinks it is, and it sure as hell doesn't manage or coordinate state and local police. folks need to learn there ain't no The Police in the USA. even americans is woeful misinformed 'bout the authority the fed has over local law enforcement practices, training, spending and activities. the intent o' US system is for police to be more direct answerable to the people who vote in sheriffs or city council/mayor elections. the further is the seat o' power from which police is directed, the greater the potential for abuse, or so believed the framers. what is to stop the Fed from sending in a national police if the issue in question is localized to portland? for better or worse, mayors and sheriffs in portland is gonna be far more sensitive to citizens o' portland than will the President or william barr. as to insurrection act, don't rely on fox. when used in past, the act has almost always been utilized by the President with approval o' a state governor, the main reason being you either need governor approval, or the activities being curtailed by the Fed need be o' a type and nature it is impracticable for states to address. is not simply a matter o' state unwillingness to use heavy-handed force which triggers. some function o' scope or type must make implausible for local to handle the matter. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Hurlshort Posted July 18, 2020 Posted July 18, 2020 31 minutes ago, Gromnir said: folks need to learn there ain't no The Police in the USA. even americans is woeful misinformed 'bout the authority the fed has over local law enforcement practices, training, spending and activities. One can always hope... 2
Gromnir Posted July 18, 2020 Posted July 18, 2020 took us a few years to appreciate stewart copeland. regardless, perhaps metaphor o' such a successful three-member band is that sometimes less police is better? apologies, were admitted just stretching to make more police relevant in politics thread. HA! Good Fun! 3 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Raithe Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) To go with a comment from the Author Elizabeth Moon Troops in full body armor and uniforms with no identifying patches snatching people off the streets of an American city and stuffing them into unmarked vehicles.... Taking them to unknown destinations for an unstated purpose. Attacking journalists. Said to be "federal" troops but not which agency. Authorized by a president in serious need of regaining popularity, against the wishes of that state's governor and that city's mayor, who claims the female governor of the state is "weak" and he is "strong." Clearly their purpose is to spread terror in the city and silence questions about their presence and their actions. American Gestapo. Not a movie. Not a TV show. Real life. Portland, Oregon, July 2020. In the midst of a pandemic nowhere near being under control, in a country increasingly unsettled by right-wing white-supremacist violence tolerated by this Administration, while the president and his toady Attorney General slander those who stand against racism, police brutality against Blacks and Hispanics, the GOP continues its assault on all who disagree, who protest, who argue. They bemoan the loss of a "civility" which they never displayed to anyone but themselves. They admire, support, and protect the would-be dictator who lies, breaks the laws, and commits treason and has now unleashed unknown numbers of unknown armed men on an American city. It could be my town next. It could be yours. Any state, any town, that this president chooses to target for any reason. And it is not right. We saw it in Washington D.C., the pretense of "violent mob" (that wasn't violent, but was attacked with violence, even to the point of physically attacking priests in their own churchyard and ordering them out, so his president could pose for a photo-op without asking or being given permission to use that church as a backdrop.) Now it's in Oregon...a demonstration by this corrupt and vicious Administration that it has the power to invade and seize citizens anywhere it wants to. And it wants the whole country....for itself, for its biggest donors, and for its foreign master. Choose your hill, mark it. Then wear your mask to protect yourself and others, and be kind to those you love. Help those you can. Don't spread any of the diseases going around: COVID-19, fear, hatred, lies. Mix your anger with compassion and drink it down. As Gandalf said to Frodo: "All we have to do is decide what to do with the time given to us..." CBC- Portland Mayor demands Trump remove federal agents from the city following detentions "Oregon's attorney general plans to file lawsuit, citing civil rights violations" Edited July 19, 2020 by Raithe 1 "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."
BruceVC Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 On 7/17/2020 at 8:13 PM, Volourn said: It is 2020. Lawlessness is now the way to go depending what side you are on. NYC mayor had dozens of cops protecting a BLM mural, while a bunch of murders and crimes were happening in NYC, and had the gall to blame the cops even though the cops weren't involved in said crimes. This after threatening/making cuts to the police budgets and telling them to stand down and let crimes like assault, robbery, and murder happen. volo can I ask you an important question that matters to me so I understand your sentiment and overall view about BLM\Antifa. Firstly I agree there are elements within Antifa, it may be most of the movement that is involved in violence and creating general anarchy for reasons that dont make sense to me when I hear some of there " leaders " explain what the movement is about. One of the criticisms I have is there is no official leadership structure which means no one takes real responsibility for any criminal acts the group commits like public violence and damage to properties. I read a view one of the unofficial spokesmen had where he openly admitted his definition of Antifa was where it was " okay to damage property and use violence " because the reality of the USA demanded that ....I reject this as there is never a justification for most public acts of violence in any Democracy where you have laws, Constitutions and legal ways to raise concerns. I am not impressed with Antifa generally and I am happy if anyone can explain what I am misunderstanding about the movement But BLM is not Antifa and we should separate the 2 groups with our views. There are well meaning people in BLM and I know they dont support violence like Antifa So based on this what is the reason you raise issues around these groups, I think everyone would agree that definitely there would be some examples of white people being unfairly targeted by Antifa. This is similar to right wing groups attacking minority groups, I dont mean mass shootings but people get beaten up just for being a certain race and that is never right But since we all know this why are you raising examples, I am not trying to tell you what you should be posting ..that would be condescending. I am actually interested in your own reasons for bringing things to every ones attention. In summary do you want people to admit movements like BLM\Antifa have some members who commit violence against white people? As I said earlier I agree with that but its not everyone in BLM and Antifa I have other issues with that I mentioned. ' "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Guard Dog Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 Got into a political discussion at the VFW dinner last night. I was just conversing but it got... heated. I wonder if they will "forget" to invite me next time. 1 1 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
BruceVC Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 40 minutes ago, Guard Dog said: Got into a political discussion at the VFW dinner last night. I was just conversing but it got... heated. I wonder if they will "forget" to invite me next time. Can you share what got potentially heated, its just I know how much effort you put into Veterans and supporting these gatherings so I am surprised a topic could create such anxiety? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Orogun01 Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 52 minutes ago, Guard Dog said: Got into a political discussion at the VFW dinner last night. I was just conversing but it got... heated. I wonder if they will "forget" to invite me next time. You'd think they would be numb to politics by now. I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you.
Guard Dog Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 39 minutes ago, BruceVC said: Can you share what got potentially heated, its just I know how much effort you put into Veterans and supporting these gatherings so I am surprised a topic could create such anxiety? People who don't fit neatly into one of the two established political categories in this country are hard for the ones who do to understand. The VFW is TRUMP country (capitals intentional). Half those old guys think he was sent by God himself to save us all and all he does is with divine mandate. Or something. Well, my opinions of the Orange Menace are well known to all of you. So, anyway they were going on about Trump and his executive orders and how it's about time someone took things in hand and what not. Of course I told them what I think. Next thing you know I'm being questioned, with some hostility, about how as a veteran I could support Biden. I don't I told them. In fact the only thing I hate more than the Republicans is the goddamned Democrats. For whatever reason that didn't resonate and it went on like that for a time. No hard feelings on my part. I'm not sure that is true all around. People really are too uptight about politics. It matters far less than most folks will admit. 4 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
HoonDing Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 if you criticize Drump you must be a libcuck The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Hurlshort Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 I'm not sure how being a veteran should endear you to Biden or Trump. Neither served. Trump's kids didn't serve. Biden's son served, so I guess that is a plus.
Guard Dog Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Hurlshot said: I'm not sure how being a veteran should endear you to Biden or Trump. Neither served. Trump's kids didn't serve. Biden's son served, so I guess that is a plus. Many vets feel that the Democrats have been and still are disdainful and disrespectful of vets and the military in general. That opinion is not without some validation. But, obviously it does not apply to all Dems. Do you recall the Obama admin's "special instructions" to local police regarding veterans back in '09. That is still discussed to this very day. Edited July 19, 2020 by Guard Dog 2 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 35 minutes ago, Hurlshot said: I'm not sure how being a veteran should endear you to Biden or Trump. Neither served. Trump's kids didn't serve. Biden's son served, so I guess that is a plus. The people who end up in the US military lean heavily towards positions in line with the Republican party, and such positions have led to an embrace of Trump that is similar to a certain golden calf. It isn't unique to military veterans, and you could probably find the same thing with other groups who tend towards said positions. "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "you're a damned filthy lying robot and you deserve to die and burn in hell." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "I love cheese despite the pain and carnage." - ShadySands
BruceVC Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Guard Dog said: Many vets feel that the Democrats have been and still are disdainful and disrespectful of vets and the military in general. That opinion is not without some validation. But, obviously it does not apply to all Dems. Do you recall the Obama admin's "special instructions" to local police regarding veterans back in '09. That is still discussed to this very day. Yes this is a real perception and there are examples of how you can see how the actions and certain political decisions made under Obama could easily be seen as "Democrats dont respect the military " yet sometimes certain negative views were based more on some generalizations people made about the US military which never helps I dont think Trump has a real connection to the US military but as usual he has this uncanny ability to understand and is generally good at identifying certain views on the ground and then he addresses these views through both speeches and actual policy. And there are several examples where Trump has correctly supported the US military which explains the support he gets from veterans and people in the army generally Edited July 19, 2020 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
BruceVC Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Guard Dog said: People who don't fit neatly into one of the two established political categories in this country are hard for the ones who do to understand. The VFW is TRUMP country (capitals intentional). Half those old guys think he was sent by God himself to save us all and all he does is with divine mandate. Or something. Well, my opinions of the Orange Menace are well known to all of you. So, anyway they were going on about Trump and his executive orders and how it's about time someone took things in hand and what not. Of course I told them what I think. Next thing you know I'm being questioned, with some hostility, about how as a veteran I could support Biden. I don't I told them. In fact the only thing I hate more than the Republicans is the goddamned Democrats. For whatever reason that didn't resonate and it went on like that for a time. No hard feelings on my part. I'm not sure that is true all around. People really are too uptight about politics. It matters far less than most folks will admit. What an interesting story and not unusual considering the political reality and ideological views that some in the USA have You probably will be aware of what I am going to say but I want to share something with you that I have come to understand about the Trump presidency and what it meant and how Trump did win. Its been some good developments and some bad but Trump has definitely made some things worse like the way the media is seen and this " political dichotomy " between the left and right that is normal but under Trump there has been even less reasonable discussions and people finding common ground..... Trump also has been consistent in his support for certain American institutions and groups ...like the US military. He has been a supporter of the importance of the contribution veterans make and also in most cases stood by the current US army in ways other presidents may have unintentionally neglected. That is why groups like your veteran friends like Trump and to them that is important. They dont follow the Trump theater and the world of " alternative facts", he has restored certain degrees of dignity to the military so they would naturally support him But since the virus the greatest obvious Trump success was the heightened strength of the USA economy that is something Trumps economic advisors did well by implementing several unorthodox economic policies that did work.....but all that is gone and to make things worse Trump has also been part of the reasons there hasnt been consistent and obvious virus best practice implemented consistency and directly from the White House. He is not the primary reason as I predict history will be very critical of other groups like certain Republican governors, the lack of common sense from people on the ground in some states, the Trump base the " mask conspiracy theories and sadly the BLM protests which from day had many people suddenly ignoring the virus. All these groups have played a part in contributing towards how the virus has spread in the USA So these realities have created a situation where its unlikely Trump will win in 2020. But when it comes to some of his normal supporters like the Veterans I have noticed a strange response to Trumps impending loss. I would have assumed people would just reconcile why you voted for Trump, the good he did but external factors have changed this so you dont want to overreact to the success Biden is seeing..... Biden will win not because Trump failed or that he didnt deliver on certain campaign promises that matter to some of his supporters but rather the virus outcome and Trumps lack of understanding how the virus should be contained So going forward IMO its best not to get into debates with groups like the Veterans because they see Trump failing as a reflection on what he did for them, they shouldnt see it like this but most Trump supporters do. Exactly how they responded to you is what you will see......it becomes a binary choice for them but in fact as you mentioned you are very far removed from someone who " support Biden " automatically just because you have other reasonable issues with Trump People like the Veterans are well meaning and there legacy will always matter but they will view Trump losing in a much more personal way that it really matters I hope this makes sense because I am not sure I am explaining my point properly? Lastly I would hate to see someone like you read too much into how people assumed certain things about you and you then decide to stop putting the effort you normally put into these institutions. That would be a real loss ......the VFW is the same it always was its just there personal views on Trump and the current bedlam we see in some examples of the USA political reality that is potentially controversial. Dont change your normal support because of this misunderstanding Edited July 19, 2020 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Guard Dog Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 Just a reminder there will be names on your ballot this November other than Trump & Biden "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
HoonDing Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 Drump would just call her ugly in the debates The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Volourn Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 "if you criticize Drump you must be a libcuck" And, if you are remotely neutral (or at least not histrionic) or positive towards him, you are insta KKK Hitler Nazi Racist. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Gromnir Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 6 hours ago, Guard Dog said: Do you recall the Obama admin's "special instructions" to local police regarding veterans back in '09. That is still discussed to this very day. ok, we will bite. what were the veteran-specific special instructions the obama administration delivered to local police o' all things in the first year o' his administration? we could google, but am curious to see where gd goes with this. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Guard Dog Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Gromnir said: ok, we will bite. what were the veteran-specific special instructions the obama administration delivered to local police o' all things in the first year o' his administration? we could google, but am curious to see where gd goes with this. HA! Good Fun! https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123992665198727459 It came from a 2009 DHS memo. The gist is local police should pay special attention to returning combat veterans, and other groups the left wingers might call "reactionary" (meaning not them IMO). It seems the DHS figured these sorts of people would be likely to be recruited into "militia groups" and other so called "domestic terrorists". It was worded in a rather blunt and ham fisted way that pissed off the American Legion and a lot of vets, myself included. Janet Napolitano apologized for it in an unapologetic kind of way. Edited July 19, 2020 by Guard Dog "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Volourn Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 Kinda reminds me of when PM BLACKACE here in Kanada called all construction workers sexists, rapists, and sexual assaulters. LMAO DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Gromnir Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Guard Dog said: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123992665198727459 yeah, am recalling the smear job, but is a reason you can't find other articles other than opinion pieces and blogs. in early 2000s, the army were concerned 'bout high incidence o' vets in prison for violent crime. veterans were no more likely to be in prison, but they were far and away more likely to be in for the serious stuff. the US army started a 2004 study which were completed in 2009 and discovered veterans, particularly combat veterans, were not only more likely to commit suicide, suffer ptsd, and a whole host o' other unfortunate conditions, but they were also more likely to become radicalized. describe as special instructions to local police is highly misleading. in spite o' grossly overdramatized reporting, the result o' the bush administration study recommended, amongst other things, informing law enforcement o' risk factors and behaviours which should be considered when attempting to identify radicalization before such stuff resulted in mass shootings and whatnot. being a veteran were just one factor law enforcement were directed to be cognizant o' when considering early id o' radicalization. being discharged involuntary from military were an even more noteworthy factor. and yeah, there were perhaps at least a couple example o' overzealous cops detaining veterans 'cause they listened to wrong music or similar nonsense. *shrug* bush era program were meant to identify micah johnson and gavin long as well as dylann roof before they went over the edge. unfortunate, 'cause o' overreaction, no similar program has ever been implemented and as such many veterans with ptsd fail to get help they need. any identification program which suggests veterans could be a danger not just to themselves but others is presumptively a fail. HA! Good Fun! ps special instructions is a ridiculous way to reference. were no direction to action per se. were informational and offered recommendations, but nothing approaching instructions or directives 'cause such woulda' required an act o' Congress or the like in any event. Edited July 19, 2020 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Guard Dog Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 Special instruction was a mischaracterization on my part. It was a memo from the DHS to law enforcement agencies IIRC. I'm writing on an internet forum here. This isn't a EMES ( a type of document I frequently write at work) where I'm agonizing over every word choice. If the goal is to "help" vets with PTSD law enforcement is NOT the agency to reach out to. That would be the VA which is a complete and utter s--t show and always has been for as long as I've known about it. Not holding my breath because the US government is incapable of doing anything without totally f-----g it up. I once had a copy of that memo and it was moderately insulting. It wasn't so much WHAT was said as how but it's been a hell of a long time. Really the only thing I remember is that it happened and it was literally the first thing the DHS under Obama did. Not a good first step at all. 1 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
ShadySands Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 I vaguely remember having to sit through safety briefs on gangs and right wing groups infiltrating the military with more emphasis on the right wing groups. This was all before Obama as I got out in December of 08. Free games updated 3/4/21
Malcador Posted July 19, 2020 Posted July 19, 2020 Was a good interview with Wallace - https://www.foxnews.com/politics/transcript-fox-news-sunday-interview-with-president-trump As always reading Trump is more painful than hearing him 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
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