Politics XXXVIII (A Nontotient)

[Zoraptor]

You're the one going on about Blix, not me. So what about December 2002, there was 4 more months of inspections after that, and he said progress was being made and he just needed more time. Which he didn't get. I'll also be frank, your recollection of a Hans Blix speech is not something I'm ever going to find convincing given your propensity for creative interpretation.

Wilful stupidity is a key component of a lot of conspiracies same as belief is. If you're conclusion shopping- something you also personally do frequently and something that the build up to GW2 was replete with- the absolute key concepts are being wilfully stupid by ignoring contrary information and stating things you merely believe as if they are objective fact. And yes, those are exactly what antivaxxers do (along with the 'makes you think though?/ 'if there's smoke there's fire' approach, also used extensively in the GW2 lead up, but which is not actual lying just being disingenuous). I could post every instance of outright lies here, but I'd literally hit the character limit.

As for official government enquiries, lol. The US/ Brits investigated the US/ Brits and found the US/ Brits did nothing deliberately wrong. I will pick up my jaw from the floor after I recover from the lack of shock. I won't lie, since my lack of shock is complete I may never be able to chew again.

[Volourn]

Little more lighthearted than usual, but this is typical SJW/Nazi/Antifa/BLM behavior. LMAO 

[Gromnir]

1 minute ago, Zoraptor said:

 Which he didn't get. I'll also be frank, your recollection of a Hans Blix speech is not something I'm ever going to find convincing given your propensity for creative interpretation.

 

look it up. don't be low energy. we gave you everything you need to find. names. approx date. location. what more do you need.

reason we brought up blix is 'cause he were a source offered by you on the issue and he quite clear rejected conspiracy. he were one o' the lead UN inspectors, so he were in a position to offer unique pov particular as he actual interacted with folks such as powell, cheney and bush.

we stated already how blix wanted more time to investigate. in fact he pleaded with the powers that be and said that to produce reliable conclusions would not be a matter o' years o' investigations, but months. all he wanted were months. nevertheless, the coalition had already assembled troops and they weren't gonna wait any longer as investigations had already been going on for a considerable period o' time. however, not give time for investigations is hardly proof o' conspiracy.  US had already provided their intelligence to UN inspectors and at least President bush were supporting investigations. also part o' US calculus were recognition o' axiom: it is indeed impossible to prove a negative. there were no way blix were ever gonna definitive prove the absence o' wmds and many elements o' US and brits were more confident in their intelligence than in the lack o' progress, from their curiously busted pov, o' blix. blix didn't see rejection o' additional time as some kinda effort to cover up conspiracy, but zor knows better.

*chuckle*

anti vaxxer indeed. 

and no, stoopidity is not part o' conspiracy. stoopidity tends to make conspiracy less plausible 'cause what you need for conspiracy is a coordinated plan which were presumable successful up to some unspecific point... or people wouldn't bother discussing. if the conspiracy is a bunch o' morons who get caught before they hardly get started, then nobody ends up discussing. for obvious reasons, stoopidity goes a long way in diminishing likely o' conspiracy.

freaking tinfoil hat brigade thinking. anti vaxxer thinking.

any large government effort is gonna have innumerable folks being mistaken in at least small ways. is likely to be bunches o' folks wrong in big ways too. again, nature o' the beast. there will also be folks part o' such efforts who lied, usual for personal gain. point to individual instances o' unrelated stoopid and mistruth is not evidence o' conspiracy. need evidence o' a coordinated plan. tinfoil hat and anti vaxxers assume the coordination and plan from random mistake and mistruth. is bass ackwards.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

Maybe they were stockpiling toilet paper and that's why the Bush administration wanted feet on the ground there.?

Trumps new election strategy... send more federal troops to Democrat controlled cities and stir up unrest:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53507660

 

[Gromnir]

22 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Maybe they were stockpiling toilet paper and that's why the Bush administration wanted feet on the ground there.?

 

now ask us to disprove it. such is the mo o' the anti vaxxers and tinfoil hat brigade. show us some kinda quartermaster report with disproportionate tp acquisition and then craft a whole conspiracy from such nonsense is exact what we face with the zors. 

that said, the wmd conspiracies does distract from the real abuse which has been repeated all too frequent. manpower and money required for regime building and security during such building were knowing and arguable criminal minimized. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Maybe they were stockpiling toilet paper and that's why the Bush administration wanted feet on the ground there.?

Trumps new election strategy... send more federal troops to Democrat controlled cities and stir up unrest:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53507660

 

Americans are stupid enough to fall for it.

[Gorth]

19 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Americans are stupid enough to fall for it.

I would honestly prefer a lesser generalization here and say, "some" people would fall for it

 

[Gromnir]

56 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I would honestly prefer a lesser generalization here and say, "some" people would fall for it

 

polarization to the current extreme levels existing in the US is not the norm. a US Presidential candidate who need only appeal to his base, which represents a minority o' voters, is outside our collective experience.

Meet the People Behind Donald Trump's Popularity

is generalities, but is far more specific than "Americans."

is older and less educated evangelical christians who is lower middle class or poor, 'mongst other factors, who vote for trump. the President don't need to bamboozle Americans. is six battleground states which is in play. given how polarized is 2020 Americans, is only a small number o' votes which matter that is actual in play. were multiple battleground states in 2016 trump won by less than 1%. those hairsbreadth victories 'gainst a historical unpopular opponent resulted in a trump victory.

again, American polarization is extreme... is more extreme than in 2016. many folks who grudging voted for trump in 2016 will now support him regardless o' covid-19 or any new catastrophe/scandal which may befall his campaign 'tween now and november. 'cause o' curious US system, trump's message need only resonate with a few on-the-fence folks in a handful o' states. trump is betting enough o' such undecideds is less educated and older folks. to whom is trump's message of fear directed? is those small number o' undecideds he has a legit chance in this climate o' polarization to sway 'tween now and november.

answers another unasked question: why has trump sudden taken covid-19 a bit more serious? 'cause polls show older voters is more afraid o' covid-19. 

literal just saw this

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 23, 2020 by Gromnir

[Zoraptor]

6 hours ago, Gromnir said:

look it up.

No. That which is asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. If it were just about anyone else I'd give them the benefit of the doubt but you've literally used time travelling soviet invasion plans to justify your views before, because you read some dodgy website that didn't expect anyone to check the dates. Peak Gromnir too, you can't be bothered looking up your own source but it's me that's low energy for not doing it for you.

And to show I'm not low energy when it comes to sources and why I'm not going to take you at your word:

"[the administration] repeatedly presented intelligence as fact when in reality it was unsubstantiated, contradicted, or even non-existent. As a result, the American people were led to believe that the threat from Iraq was much greater than actually existed." Doesn't sound like the Senate Report on Pre War Intelligence rejects my conclusions at all. Indeed, it shows a systematic campaign of such non lying activities as presenting "non existent" intelligence as fact, organised by Cheney/ Feith's parallel intelligence group.

 

[Gromnir]

23 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

No. That which is asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. If it were just about anyone else I'd give them the benefit of the doubt but you've literally used time travelling soviet invasion plans to justify your views before, because you read some dodgy website that didn't expect anyone to check the dates. Peak Gromnir too, you can't be bothered looking up your own source but it's me that's low energy for not doing it for you.

And to show I'm not low energy when it comes to sources and why I'm not going to take you at your word:

"[the administration] repeatedly presented intelligence as fact when in reality it was unsubstantiated, contradicted, or even non-existent. As a result, the American people were led to believe that the threat from Iraq was much greater than actually existed." Doesn't sound like the Senate Report on Pre War Intelligence rejects my conclusions at all. Indeed, it shows a systematic campaign of such non lying activities as presenting "non existent" intelligence as fact, organised by Cheney/ Feith's parallel intelligence group.

 

so you gonna stick with low energy and come up with bs response to excuse?

and your quote doesn't suggest conspiracy... 'less you is tinfoil hat wearer. as we noted, blix specific observed how brits and US were reading intelligence and where question marks were implied, the folks were acting as if were exclamation points. fact such happened more than once is not evidence o' a plan or systemic campaign to mislead. blix, your guy, specific noted that the Americans believed what they were selling. 

your conspiracy theory reasoning is transparent and repetitive. singular quotes not actual representing coordination or planning save what you choose to read into it. you are trying to rationalize from reverse, which is exact the kinda nonsense blix were criticizing the americans o' doing with wmd. you got the conclusion o' conspiracy and as such you read bits and pieces as supporting your conclusion. witch hunter mentality.

would be funny if we thought you were kidding, but you are serious.

HA! Good Fun!

[IndiraLightfoot]

Hans Blix is a well-known Swedish lawyer, and he's been writing extensively on this subject - books as well as a plethora of articles in both English and Swedish.

This article, an opinion piece, in the Guardian is but one tiny example:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/mar/20/iraq.usa

Gromnir is in fact indirectly quoting it, by him saying "brits and US were reading intelligence and where question marks were implied, the folks were acting as if were exclamation points".

In the same article, link above you, Blix claims: 

"The contract that George Bush held up before Congress to show that Iraq was purchasing uranium oxide was proved to be a forgery."

If this is true; Who made the forgery and why?

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by IndiraLightfoot

[Skarpen]

@Gromnir @Zoraptor

Don't know what you guys will read from that, but my military friends told me back then when they prepared for Iraq that superiors told them openly to not be afraid of any WMD because americans informed them the talk about WMD is just for show to justify intervention.

[Guard Dog]

In other news something encouraging is happening: Libertarian and Green Party Candidates Are Making Surprising Appearances in 2020 Election Polls

"I would say to voters, you know, make yourself heard. Vote for what you want and make the politicians come to you"  Howie Hawkins

That's goddamn right Mr. Hawkins.

If it came down to just me, if my one vote decided the election between Biden & Trump I'd STILL vote for Jorgensen. 

[Malcador]

Vermin Supreme would get mine

[Gromnir]

keep in mind zor is specific avoiding sharing the conclusions o' the report from which he quotes. stuff such as,

“Statements by the president, vice president, secretary of state and the national security advisor regarding a possible Iraqi nuclear weapons program were generally substantiated by the intelligence community, but did not convey the substantial disagreements that existed in the intelligence community.”

the report observed what a colossal waste o' time and effort were the report, recognizing how intelligence is not incontestable truth but is in fact a single factor in policy maker decision process. the screw-ups and failures o' intelligence by any number o' individuals were unforgivable, but there were no conspiracy or coordinated plan to cover-up the known absence o' wmds in iraq. the great mistake identified by the report were the same as identified by blix at berkeley in 2004: there were undue cherry-picking by the administration to find support for their curiously certain belief in the presence o' wmds, but no administration malfeasance were identified.

4 hours ago, IndiraLightfoot said:

 

Gromnir is in fact indirectly quoting it, by him saying "brits and US were reading intelligence and where question marks were implied, the folks were acting as if were exclamation points".

 

*shrug*

as we noted, we were in the audience for his berkeley interview/talk with christiane amanpour. obviously am not gonna have perfect recall from 2004, but we got an excellent memory. am knowing video o' the conference in general exists and am 99.9% there is youtube o' at least the interview if not the q&a. zor need be spoon fed is ridiculous. at this point he is being willful obtuse in refusing to simple google.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 hours ago, Gorth said:

Trumps new election strategy... send more federal troops to Democrat controlled cities and stir up unrest:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53507660

 

It's funny how some folks who spent years crying about Tyranny (because teh gays could tie the knot or something) are completely fine with this. Really makes ya think they were talking about something else when they said "freedom".

[Malcador]

Can't wait to see the half-lie statistics they'll truck out to show its success in other places.  Already did so in KC - https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article244421027.html

[IndiraLightfoot]

Perhaps not related to anything more than Trump sending federal troops to Chicago among several other US cities (Operation Legend is certainly legendary... *Oof* ),

but how cool and brilliant isn't this mayor?

Lori Lightfoot. I can see why so many people voted for her. 

And yeah, her surname has a comforting ring to it, for sure.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Most people I know in Chicago hate her and think she empowers the police to brutalize people. The Census Cowboy is cool though.

38 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Can't wait to see the half-lie statistics they'll truck out to show its success in other places.  Already did so in KC - https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article244421027.html

It's going to be tremendous bull****, but the people he's trying to appeal to don't care.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, KaineParker said:

It's funny how some folks who spent years crying about Tyranny (because teh gays could tie the knot or something) are completely fine with this. Really makes ya think they were talking about something else when they said "freedom".

this time it's somebody finally having the courage to stand up to the lawless anarchists who wanna take away your freedom? polarization.

keep in mind this kinda disconnect were what we had to contend with regular as a first amendment advocate. we warned any who would listen that belief in the value o' first amendment values were far more important than the text itself. as a minority and catholic, representing white supremacists were unsavory, but we knew enough history to see how recent it were that naacp and lgbt were targets o' suppression. anarchists. moral bankrupt. lawless.

we represented white supremacist first amendment claims not as approval o' white supremacists, but 'cause we knew how quickly roles could be reversed and those needing somebody such as Gromnir to advocate for them would be outta luck if the first amendment were not defended from every Government effort to marginalize. wouldn't take much for our evolving society to regress. whenever the Court spoke o' evolving social standards, we shivered 'cause we knew how same reasoning could support regression. we were frequent chided. we were told that of course the naacp would never need fear same kinda animosity and suppression in post 2000 America as it endured in the past century. alarmist nonsense from Gromnir.

2020 and blm is target. serious?

when questions o' right and wrong is for all practical purposes determined by the identity and viewpoint o' parties, we has functional abandoned our commitment to Constitutional values. the Constitution offers no protection at all if it don't protect those with whom we passionate disagree. so, like cassandra we warn knowing we will be unheeded. whatever is your viewpoint on race or politics or religion, the dates on calendar will inevitably blur by and eventually the people enforcing Constitution will be people who do not share your point o' view. if the only thing that matters is viewpoint when deciding who deserves to be protected by the Constitution, what protection will it be offering you when is your turn to be the wrong side o' the President or Congress?

US needs contend with extreme polarization and myopia approaching obtuse levels o' stoopid.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Raithe]

Oh the juggle of politics vs funny...

[Volourn]

She's scum but don't forget Kap is pro slavery and pro racism. He works with Nike -a  company known for its slavery in other coutnries and if they literally lost cases over racism. LMAO

[Hurlshort]

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-campaign-ad-police-officer-attacked-2014-ukraine-protests-2020-7?utmSource=twitter&utmContent=referral&utmTerm=topbar&referrer=twitter&fbclid=IwAR1zGdkyQTl6Qi7bTNqJgRg2xF5g9hodGQ59cSOK8JvwFSpZ-JHmpvFNVVI

Sooooo stupid.

[Volourn]

Yup. that kind of nonsense is annoying as hell.  And, both sides do it. It is pathetic. Then again, both sides are filled with Nazis who murder, slavery, power, and control. FREEDOM OF SPEECH FOR EVERYONE. PERIOD.

[Gromnir]

Michael Cohen will be released from prison to home confinement, judge rules

HA! Good Fun!