Politics XXXVIII (A Nontotient)

[Darkpriest]

21 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Dark I am enjoying your posts but I dont know anything about you, if you dont mind sharing what are your political views, ideological views ....just general stuff so I understand what you believe and of course only share what you feel is relevant 

This article is not representative of what defines real sustainable countries, GDP is one important metric but it definitely doesn't tell the real story of what makes a country relevant or worthy of admiring.  And more important it doesnt reveal the most important factor .....quality of life

Countries like China and Russia will never become more relevant  than places like Canada, USA or the EU . So no need to worry about this 

You might be surprised. Just because they are not attractive to us _currently_, it does not mean it won't change in the future, once they will become richer and will show stability and safety for a run of the mill "commoner", who just wants to live decently well, have family and feel his property is safe. 

We in the West like to think, we are special, and have some mandate to build special social constructs, which do not make sense, both culturally and evolutionary. 

How are nations born? What drives the nations to become relevant on the world stage historically and today? 

That India iconographic is cute. I wonder, if the person providing it @213374U, could highlight the differences in appearance, beliefs and current tech in those populations, if he would talk to an average joe from each area. What's the history and timespan which led to forming of a culture in that big area? 

You do not need to look that far for different groups of people forming something. It's enough, if you'll look at UK or Germany up until 60's

Compare to the unfeasable vision of merging vastly different characteristics and placing them in competition for resources and power, and see how our primate coding kicks in. 

 

The point is, to use brain, reason and observed facts and characteristics, instead of feels and subjective perception. 

 

We are expereminting with constructs, which are unique and not resgistered on such a scale in the human history. They are counter intuitive to how we evolved in different regions over thousands of years.

Imagine, if suddenly tech stopped and we would lose electrical grid (lets call an old good solar flare) 

Which societies would recover faster? 

Which would be still relevant and which would die out due to infighting? 

 

Edit: I'm of opinion that first, you build similar education level and perception for a value of science and a human life in the other regions, and once they catch up culturally and technologically, you start experimenting with merging vastly differnt ethnicities. 

 

Look how easy it is to dehumanize someone, just because the only difference might be where to allocate money... 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Darkpriest

[Darkpriest]

I wonder what's @Gromnir and @Guard Dog opinion on what's going on around the case with St. Louis property owners

[Darkpriest]

9 hours ago, Gorth said:

Depends on how you define "West". Poland and Hungary both seems to have gotten tired of the whole democracy experiment and are heading full speed down the path of becoming totalitarian regimes (using Erdogans Turkey as a role model for how they want their countries run). Italy... looks like it's about to collapse under it's own corruption and inefficiency in governing. A dictatorial Berlusconi was the closest they got to a government not being replaced once a year since WW II. The UK.... The jury is still out. Lets see if it's still the UK 3 years from now (or just England+Wales+Ulster and then Scotland). Belgium is barely keeping together. A bit more social unrest and watch that space for all your daily news.

Not entirely accurate. I'll use Poland as an example as I know it better than Hungary. 

Yes, the elected government is not ideal. In fact in some areas it is outright awful with populistic social policies, and a grab at public media. They also apply a sledgehammer where a scalpel is needed when it comes to legal system and courts, which will eventually backfire. 

However, here the ignorance of western politicians and lefty bias of most of the media shows. Instead of understanding the structure and what kept the identity of a nation together, even though Poland, which held one of the oldest universities (founded in 1394), had cosmopolitan views and was a country of many ethnicities and religions, was erased from maps for over a hundred years, got devastated during the two world wars, its population decimated in genocide on jews and slavs (tagrtting the people of science, law, politics and culture in order to kill the identity) , then relocated under a soviet rule and kept poor in the socialist/communist dream.  The only good thing is, that people in vast majority were equally poor, when eventually Poland managed to remove USSR shackles. 

Now in less than 30 years, some foreign powers claim to say, they know better than what these people want and fought for. They attack their national pride, their traditions and family values. 

It's a no brainer that the majority of population will kick back at that. Especially when you will attempt to do so aggresivly and try to belittle them and humiliate them. So a mix of national pride talk and money wins over majority of votes. That's a democratic process. I do not like the current outcome, and what the government is doing and how its using the mandate, but it's a reaction to aggresive identity politics. What's worse, people who attack these values, do little to go against people who voilate the Social Justice more, like muslim arabs and africans who are not tolerant and even trade in slaves (especially women slaves) , or a communist China, to which all global corporations pander due to cheap labor and potential for profits. 

 

EDIT: a common resident also sees how his/her country developed and at the same time sees how the other countries degenerate in safety and economic growth. 

They also remember how aggresively EU countries, especially Germany fought to keep their job markets closed (up to 7 years) after Poland joined the EU, and now they fund immigrants without any shared value, from areas, which are a host to known terrorist groups and without any background check and vetting process. They also notice the double standard and how Western EU and US media willingly omit the fact, that Poland is helping migrants from eastern Ukraine and Belarus, and they relocatted in hundreds of thousands to Poland in the last decade. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Darkpriest

[Pidesco]

People post interesting things in twitter threads which suck. As such here is a pretty good explanation of libertarianism:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1284565269277360128.html

 

TLDR version: Just go read it if you are interested you lazy person.

[Guard Dog]

2 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

I wonder what's @Gromnir and @Guard Dog opinion on what's going on around the case with St. Louis property owners

1) They acted rather stupidly. Owning a firearm is a big responsibility. Primarily knowing when to use it. Protesters on the common use street are not a threat, The common use streets of a private gated neighborhood are not the exclusive property of any one homeowner. Protesters on your exclusively private property are a threat and they would have been justified in not just pointing but opening fire. AFAIK the protesters did not set foot on their exclusively private property nor did any damage to it. The couple WERE verbally threatened however, AFTER they confronted them.  But for the confrontation it might not have happened but the protesters had already committed one crime just being there. 

2) No one's hands in this situation are clean. The prosecutor deciding to charge only the homeowners means this is not about seeking justice rather grinding a political axe. The fact that she is seeking felony charges and lengthy prison terms for only one party in a situation where everyone did wrong is pretty despicable. I wish I were on that jury. There is not chance I'd convict. But this will never see a courtroom IMO. This is a campaign issue and after the election it will probably go away.

If I am correct how disgusting is that? Even the criminal justice system is just a political tool. 

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

You might be surprised. Just because they are not attractive to us _currently_, it does not mean it won't change in the future, once they will become richer and will show stability and safety for a run of the mill "commoner", who just wants to live decently well, have family and feel his property is safe. 

We in the West like to think, we are special, and have some mandate to build special social constructs, which do not make sense, both culturally and evolutionary. 

How are nations born? What drives the nations to become relevant on the world stage historically and today? 

That India iconographic is cute. I wonder, if the person providing it @213374U, could highlight the differences in appearance, beliefs and current tech in those populations, if he would talk to an average joe from each area. What's the history and timespan which led to forming of a culture in that big area? 

You do not need to look that far for different groups of people forming something. It's enough, if you'll look at UK or Germany up until 60's

Compare to the unfeasable vision of merging vastly different characteristics and placing them in competition for resources and power, and see how our primate coding kicks in. 

 

The point is, to use brain, reason and observed facts and characteristics, instead of feels and subjective perception. 

 

We are expereminting with constructs, which are unique and not resgistered on such a scale in the human history. They are counter intuitive to how we evolved in different regions over thousands of years.

Imagine, if suddenly tech stopped and we would lose electrical grid (lets call an old good solar flare) 

Which societies would recover faster? 

Which would be still relevant and which would die out due to infighting? 

 

Edit: I'm of opinion that first, you build similar education level and perception for a value of science and a human life in the other regions, and once they catch up culturally and technologically, you start experimenting with merging vastly differnt ethnicities. 

 

Look how easy it is to dehumanize someone, just because the only difference might be where to allocate money... 

Thanks for sharing, I agree with some of it and I look forward to future debates around how different views 

You asked " That India iconographic is cute. I wonder, if the person providing it @213374U, could highlight the differences in appearance, beliefs and current tech in those populations, if he would talk to an average joe from each area. What's the history and timespan which led to forming of a culture in that big area"

Of course he wouldnt actually talk to citizens from the various states.....he is an armchair Internet activist who lives in a first world country, he isnt actually going to do this in RL where it matters 

Im just teasing 2133, he is very consistent to normal, reasonable SJ values so Im sure  he  would interact with anyone he likes and not been selective or haughty

But where him and I will disagree is he also irrationally opposed to the proven benefits of the free market and prudent aspects of Capitalism like property rights. I am involved in the financial sector from a family and work perspective so its difficult to understand why people would be opposed to the demonstrably positive components of Capitalism and the systems of Democracies we all live in  

 

 

[Guard Dog]

4 hours ago, Gromnir said:

A Navy vet asked federal officers in Portland to remember their oaths. Then they broke his hand.

Rabid dog indeed. And they were nowhere near a federal courthouse or any other federal monument or property.  

[Guard Dog]

8 hours ago, ShadySands said:

In my particular unit everything was on the up and up but there were always stories and rumors of stuff going on elsewhere on base.  Some of it was even true.

Forgot how much I disliked the pro/con scores since they were so subjective. If your unit was too conservative with their grading then you could be screwed on your cutting score. 

They were subjective. That is a fact. In my case I got what I deserved every time. In fact the very first score I got in the fleet turned my whole life around. Our company Gunny told me since I seemed content to be average he was giving me an average score. Man that bothered me . He gave me 4.2 4.2. That really upset me. But, I started taking my work and the Marine stuff more seriously after that and never got less that 4.8 after . 

[Guard Dog]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/20/politics/disputed-election-crisis-trump/index.html

THIS is why no one trusts the media. Every damned Presidential election this crap comes out. What if the President refuses to leave? We've been doing this s--t for 244 years now. We've had 45 Presidents, some of which were bigger scoundrels that this current jackass and every one of them (that didn't die in office) walked away when voted or term limited out. This crap still surfaces with the only difference being which side they are trying to stir up angst in. It's just enough already. If Trump loses and wants to sue everyone in sight then let him. There will still be an inauguration on 1/20/2021. This is where the media fails. They are not reporting news they are telling a story. And it's a horror story designed to keep people scared of the imaginary hobgoblins.  

[Amentep]

36 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/20/politics/disputed-election-crisis-trump/index.html

THIS is why no one trusts the media. Every damned Presidential election this crap comes out. What if the President refuses to leave? We've been doing this s--t for 244 years now. We've had 45 Presidents, some of which were bigger scoundrels that this current jackass and every one of them (that didn't die in office) walked away when voted or term limited out. This crap still surfaces with the only difference being which side they are trying to stir up angst in. It's just enough already. If Trump loses and wants to sue everyone in sight then let him. There will still be an inauguration on 1/20/2021. This is where the media fails. They are not reporting news they are telling a story. And it's a horror story designed to keep people scared of the imaginary hobgoblins.  

I dunno, I don't recall this for every presidential election I've lived through.  I really only remember it for Obama and now Trump.  Could be that I just didn't pay attention to the right news outlets.  I certainly don't remember Carter complaining about mail-in votes being used to rig the election against him, or Clinton's senatorial pals suggesting (jokingly or not) that he was going to run for a third term because of all the investigations of him making that legal.  Or Reagan or either Bush doing anything like it either.  Again, maybe I just wasn't seeing the right news.

 

[Pidesco]

The only time there werel rumours of a US president not leaving office was fear mongering right wing "articles" about Obama circulating through social media some years ago. They were never taken even slightly seriously by anyone.

This time around the only reason that is a talking point is because Trump is patently not all there and a not an intelligent man, while he has been refusing to say yes or no when asked whether he will accept the result of the election if he loses. He had an interview on Fox News just yesterday where the question was asked:

Quote

 I have to see. Look, you -- I have to see. No, I'm not going to just say yes. I'm not going to say no, and I didn't last time either.

Not to say that Trump will refuse to leave. The man has the spinal fortitude of a quadriplegic neothelid and always backs down at the slightest real pressure.

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Amentep said:

I dunno, I don't recall this for every presidential election I've lived through.  I really only remember it for Obama and now Trump.  Could be that I just didn't pay attention to the right news outlets.  I certainly don't remember Carter complaining about mail-in votes being used to rig the election against him, or Clinton's senatorial pals suggesting (jokingly or not) that he was going to run for a third term because of all the investigations of him making that legal.  Or Reagan or either Bush doing anything like it either.  Again, maybe I just wasn't seeing the right news.

 

Also you can trust the media on many types of factual reporting but commentary is subjective

[Malcador]

4 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Rabid dog indeed. And they were nowhere near a federal courthouse or any other federal monument or property.  

It's funny how so many people are a-ok with that, as Portland is apparently in total chaos or something.  Seen that a lot, people will approve death squads once the perception of crime reaches high enough, heh.

Apparently the fed agents (who I guess really should be laid off if they have free time off their primary job to do this ) are heading to Chicago as well - https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/criminal-justice/ct-chicago-police-dhs-deployment-20200720-dftu5ychwbcxtg4ltarh5qnwma-story.html

[Darkpriest]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

It's funny how so many people are a-ok with that, as Portland is apparently in total chaos or something.  Seen that a lot, people will approve death squads once the perception of crime reaches high enough, heh.

Apparently the fed agents (who I guess really should be laid off if they have free time off their primary job to do this ) are heading to Chicago as well - https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/criminal-justice/ct-chicago-police-dhs-deployment-20200720-dftu5ychwbcxtg4ltarh5qnwma-story.html

Perhaps it has something to do with this? 

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/dear-black-lives-matter-supporters-chicagos-latest-riot-you

If the police were really abandoned and without support from the city officials, when they were pelted with projectiles and in danger to their health, would it not be justified to have a federal force reinforce these? 

 

Btw. Perhaps @Gromnir could assist with his knowledge.

I wonder, what constitutes inusrgency? What if the governor is supporting anti-federal weaponized groups? What are the procedures in case the state would openly act against federal government to a point of inciting voilence against federal representatives? 

[Gromnir]

Facebook added a label to Trump's post claiming that voting by mail will lead to a 'CORRUPT ELECTION'

trump is different. point to history o' US elections ignores the scope o' trump's disregard for the norms gd identifies. trump don't read history. trump don't care 'bout history save for when it is convenient. trump is constant looking for ways to get around the Constitution. to take comfort in the constitution and history is, after 3.5 years o' trump, looking increasing naive.

gd looks at situation odd. we see such media stories and am not least bit surprised by trump behaviour or the possibility he will fight to his last breath to keep his grip on the resolute desk. trump knows there is gonna be a considerable number o' democrats looking to criminalize his behaviour once he is no longer President and the doj is no longer able to say they are prevented from pursuit o' prosecutions. we question the wisdom o' such prosecutions, but for a guy who is constant complaining 'bout witch hunts, a 2021 with democrat controlled Congress and Presidency is no doubt a nightmare scenario.

only thing which continues to disappoint us is the silence. after +3 years o' trump, we are rare shocked by the President and no violation o' rule o' law or public trust is too far outta reach for him. is silence from trump supporters which bothers us. trump voters and his senate supporters is not outraged by trump facebook and twitter tirades. they ain't bothered by portland or even muslim bans. those few who is bothered ain't bothered enough to do other than suggest is just trump being trump?

how is it possible to look at what is happening in 2020 and then feel comforted by the previous near 250 years o' US history? 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Malcador]

37 minutes ago, Darkpriest said:

Perhaps it has something to do with this? 

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/dear-black-lives-matter-supporters-chicagos-latest-riot-you

If the police were really abandoned and without support from the city officials, when they were pelted with projectiles and in danger to their health, would it not be justified to have a federal force reinforce these? 

Sort of funny the author is praising the cops for not abandoning a statue, as if that were vital.  But no, I think it's just Trump playing up for optics (sort of funny to use the DHS, that entire agency's genesis was that) so look hard and be all about "law and order", as ironic as that is for him. And as I said, large chunks of society really enjoy uniformed grunts roughing people up.   Doubt these federal agents are really going to do much of anything meaningful, maybe rough up some protesters as cops usually do - ignore the guys throwing bricks and go beat up some skinny dude with a sign.

Are the police materially abandoned by city officials ? Lack of them chanting some equivalent of "blue lives matter" is irrelevant, cops' ego's being fragile aside.  The city government hasn't been onside with cutting the cop budget, with the defunding fuss and over the years have steadily increased it. Which makes sense given the violence level in parts of the city - though suppose you can make the argument they are getting poor ROI on that

[Volourn]

"Protesters on the common use street are not a threat, "

Yeha, they were. they were thretaneing. The 'protestors' were committing various crimes. Anyways, these charges a aren't about he law, but are politically motivated.

 

P.S.  When Bush was in office, people were calling him a Nazi and a dictator and were claiming he would wellingly leave the WH. LMAO It is also HILARIOUS the same people who accuse Trump of not being able to accept election results are the same ones who still haven't accepted  the election results from 2016. HAHAHA.

[Amentep]

1 hour ago, Darkpriest said:

If the police were really abandoned and without support from the city officials, when they were pelted with projectiles and in danger to their health, would it not be justified to have a federal force reinforce these? 

Is it Federal land?  If not, than to my understanding, federal forces should not be there. 

If the local police need backup on city or state land, that's for the city Mayor to work with the state Governor regarding deployment of the state's National Guard.  I believe they could work with surrounding municipalities as well, if desperate, but I think that tends to be more trouble than its worth, given the way each municipality is set up to control its own areas, and not other areas.

[Skarpen]

9 hours ago, Pidesco said:

People post interesting things in twitter threads which suck. As such here is a pretty good explanation of libertarianism:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1284565269277360128.html

 

TLDR version: Just go read it if you are interested you lazy person.

The whole "explanation" is based on omission of the core libertarian rule which is my freedom ends where someones else freedom begins. Utter waste of my time reading this, thanks man...

[Volourn]

Hundreds of officers have been injured, more than a few killed. Not to mention the innocent people whose lvies have been destroyed because of these 'protets'. The mayors and govenrors have done a poor job espciially they've been targeting  the pro police side.

 

That said,  having 'federal police' grabbing people in unmarked fans is unacceptable too.  Don't do that ****. That's what Nazis do.

[Darkpriest]

1 hour ago, Amentep said:

Is it Federal land?  If not, than to my understanding, federal forces should not be there. 

If the local police need backup on city or state land, that's for the city Mayor to work with the state Governor regarding deployment of the state's National Guard.  I believe they could work with surrounding municipalities as well, if desperate, but I think that tends to be more trouble than its worth, given the way each municipality is set up to control its own areas, and not other areas.

Aren't heritage sites or places of common commemoration protected by some federal act, thus making them eligible for the use of federal forces to protect these? 

[Amentep]

Just now, Darkpriest said:

Aren't heritage sites or places of common commemoration protected by some federal act, thus making them eligible for the use of federal forces to protect these? 

That's why I asked if it was Federal land.  I don't know.  

[ShadySands]

8 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

They were subjective. That is a fact. In my case I got what I deserved every time. In fact the very first score I got in the fleet turned my whole life around. Our company Gunny told me since I seemed content to be average he was giving me an average score. Man that bothered me . He gave me 4.2 4.2. That really upset me. But, I started taking my work and the Marine stuff more seriously after that and never got less that 4.8 after . 

I'm not sure I ever got a 4.8 which leads to my problem with it. I think the highest I ever got was 4.7* and that was after adjustments my platoon made after seeing what others in the company were submitting. My units were always on the low side of grading, our Master Guns was like only Jesus gets a 5 and only Chesty rates a 4.9. Average was like 4.0 to 4.2 and stellar was 4.5. It made us less competitive for picking up rank. Overall though I agree with you with it being the best meritocracy that I've ever seen.

Not just here but I've been seeing ZeroHedge links pop up all over the place lately. Is it the new Breitbart or something?

 

*No, I wasn't a bad Marine or anything :P. I picked up Sgt in about 3.5 years with no meritorious anything.

[Malcador]

Looks like not even in the military can you escape the annual review scoring BS.

[Bartimaeus]

5 hours ago, Pidesco said:

The only time there werel rumours of a US president not leaving office was fear mongering right wing "articles" about Obama circulating through social media some years ago. They were never taken even slightly seriously by anyone.

The amount of times I heard it mentioned in dead serious tones to me by some of the more conservative people I know certainly suggests that crap was taken seriously by at least a small subsection of conservatives. Claims of martial law being used to cancel the elections and whatnot...

Edited July 21, 2020 by Bartimaeus