Coronavirus: Triple Edition

[Hurlshort]

Enforcement is always the issue here. You can rely on the majority of people to realize the guy fishing doesn't need a mask out on hos boat on the lake. You can rely on most people wearing the masks in stores. But there are dumbasses on both sides.

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, Guard Dog said:

When it comes to your vehicle, the "rights" you have are limited. There is no "right" to drive. It's a privilege that comes with conditions. Drivers license, seat belts, having insurance, not doing it three sheets in the wind,  etc are examples of those conditions. I have never argued the state does not have the authority to make me wear a seat belt... or else. I think they should not. Not can not. 

Whether they actually have the power to compel mask wearing in public is a bit more gray. But put that aside for a moment.  The argument I have been trying to make is not CAN NOT rather SHOULD NOT. At least not so broadly.  

Yep, and I theoretically agree with you. I think things like the 'Burqa ban' in France- albeit that's the reverse of forcing people to wear something- is utterly moronic doctrinaire stupidity for example, and almost as bad as the state compelling people to wear religious iconography.

But, face masks do have a good public health justification instead of a philosophical 'mais muh secularité'; and the 'freedom' argument holds a lot less water when that freedom is potentially harming others instead of yourself. If it were easy to avoid people exercising their freedom I'd also agree, but practically it isn't. People can quite genuinely think they don't need to wear a mask because they aren't sick, yet be infectious, people can intend to maintain distance but not etc. Any one of those situations can result in death or sickness, for others. Essentially, it's the clash of theory vs practice, and in this case the practice side wins out over the theory side.

I'd suspect there are a lot of places where masks cannot be legally mandated and laws would have to be changed if they were, like here. But they'd be able to get around it pretty easily even if they didn't change the law because private entities would mandate them, and public transport, buildings etc already have rights to refuse access to protect public safety.

(I'd actually argue that there is a 'right' to drive- and there is here (and by a quick duckduckgo in the US too) the right to drive unlicensed on your own land. The state should not be able to deprive you of being able to drive for any factor, except you not being safe to others when exercising that right)

Edited August 9, 2020 by Zoraptor

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Yep, and I theoretically agree with you. I think things like the 'Burqa ban' in France- albeit that's the reverse of forcing people to wear something- is utterly moronic doctrinaire stupidity for example, and almost as bad as the state compelling people to wear religious iconography.

 

am suspecting gd knows enough to realize such an observation hurts his position rather than helps.

DISCRIMINATION AGAINST MUSLIM WOMEN - FACT SHEET

first and fourteenth amendments to the Constitution makes wearing o' such garb a protected right. in fact even if you could show that somehow wearing a burqa or hijab somehow endangered fellow citizens (am not even gonna try and imagine a relevant hypothetical) the government would need show they were addressing a compelling state interest by the least restrictive means possible. 

more extreme and arguable butting up against the good public health angle, amish and christian scientists has won any number o' cases 'gainst the state when there is a conflict 'tween free exercise o' religion and the public welfare. 'course state and fed governments nevertheless has a history o' attempting to curtail religious practices o' fringe or disreputable religions by invoking public health. santerians has been oblique targeted with all kinda transparent health code ordinance adoptions as an attempted end around on the Constitution. such efforts fail near 100%, but state and local governments, responsive to their provincial and bigoted constituencies, keep trying. 

regardless, the theoretical agreements doesn't help 'cause such ain't actual theoretical in the United States, and "rights" don't mean same thing in the US as they do elsewheres. have attempted to explain previous how free speech in US is different. so too is search and seizure laws and the exclusionary rule is almost complete unique to the US, for better or worse. 

'course kinda/sorta/not really similar to your driving example, which am doubting would get much legal traction in any US court, is stuff such as basic health care, which a growing number o' people believe should be a fundamental right. right to drive beyond your private property ain't even close to getting a sniff as far as being a potential Constitutional Amendment, and is nothing which would allow even the most flexible legal scholar to imagine into existing common law, case law or legislative history a fundamental right to drive. health care, on the other hand, is something we see as a legit possible amendment in the foreseeable future.

while the current Presidential administration has a rather loose grasp o' law and no respect for the Constitution, the Courts remain protectors o' fundamental rights, and while am knowing this conversation has happened more than once, fundamental rights is treated different in the US compared to many/most western nations. when gd and Gromnir speak o' rights, we ain't necessarily speaking same language as folks in the rest o' the world. 

before anybody gets all sensitive and channels their inner nationalist, am not suggesting US model is better... save for specific the first amendment protections, which am indeed asserting is better than pretty much everywhere else, so there.  dedication to fundamental rights means we are all too often protecting genuine evil doers from government interference and prosecution. defendants who has been proven guilty may walk free. kkk members spewing hate and intolerance may burn crosses and active attempt to sew discord and they get same protections as blm activists or 1970s hippie peaceniks. slumlord son-in-law o' prez uses privacy laws to avoid investigations into his questionable business practices. such is the cost o' liberty and is valid and compelling arguments the US does it wrong... with exception o' first amendment.

congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

gd may have forgotten the rights o' free speech and religious exercise exists as a prohibition on government action, but am more confident he recognizes the comparative value US Courts afford such rights.   

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

OK, I know I told Gromnir no more memes.... that pledge lasted just 17 hours

[Skarpen]

59 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

OK, I know I told Gromnir no more memes.... that pledge lasted just 17 hours

Me and Volo liked that post just so Grommie could rant about us being in cahoots 

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

OK, I know I told Gromnir no more memes.... that pledge lasted just 17 hours

image

as long as one understands is just for the funny, 'cause an indoor activity with folks a few feet apart, direct facing each other and breathing heavy, don't seem like the best example. perhaps redesign masks? sabre masks is best, but still hardly ideal. the wire mesh looks more obtrusive from pov o' your photo. and "fantastic ventilation," has never been our first thought 'pon entering a fencing salon, though admitted it has now been more than five years since last time we picked up our sabre. am usual accepting crap ventilation if is at least well lit. 

even so, we recognize the joke.

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

More in that vein 

[Gromnir]

am recalling in february, when science didn't know 'bout asymptomatic spread and we got videos such as the following:

were a nice opportunity to feel justifiable superior to the chinese government.

...

fast-forward to august and isn't hard to find youtube video o' some woman being attacked in a home depot 'cause she don't have a mask. is equal ez to find video o' some home depot employee being brutal assaulted 'cause he asked a customer to don a mask.

adversity brings out the extremes in people--best and worst. gabriel coulda' waited for 2020.

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

Our cops in Kanada have already murdered at least one person for not wearing a mask. EVIL.

[Raithe]

 

[Gromnir]

4 hours ago, Raithe said:

twitter 

...

this p00p bugs us on some level, 'cause rewriting history to make certain individuals look good is not helping prevent repeat of old failures.

the c-span video of bush addressing the NIH is 30 minutes, but everybody reading should do selves a favor and watch it. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps 4:11 is where bush mentions dr. fauci. 

[BruceVC]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-10/russian-covid-19-vaccine-is-pandora-s-box-industry-body-warns

 

So it appears Russia is publicly stating they have a " working " vaccine without evidence being globally confirmed and without proper clinical trials

I hope it is a working vaccine as it benefits all of us but I have serious doubts without global corroboration 

 

 

[Gorth]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-10/russian-covid-19-vaccine-is-pandora-s-box-industry-body-warns

 

So it appears Russia is publicly stating they have a " working " vaccine without evidence being globally confirmed and without proper clinical trials

I hope it is a working vaccine as it benefits all of us but I have serious doubts without global corroboration 

 

 

it probably wouldn't be approved in the West because of the high plutonium content

 

Life in Melbourne these days... (she's exaggerating though, the fine for individuals breaking the quarantine is only $20000 not $100000, the latter being what businesses get fined)

 

 

 

 

[213374U]

But at least they ain't dying from corona!

Around here it's going to be getting worse, with numbers of cases possibly comparable to the 1st "wave" albeit not likely as many deaths. I doubt we'll get another lockdown no matter what because the risk of social instability is just too big, and we're guaranteed to see some sort of societal collapse* if the economic crisis gets any worse. So predictably numbers will be massaged and idiocies like wearing a mask in the shower or whatever will be pushed.

*Somewhat relevant: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63657-6

What was that about "listening to scientists", again?

 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

it probably wouldn't be approved in the West because of the high plutonium content

 

Life in Melbourne these days... (she's exaggerating though, the fine for individuals breaking the quarantine is only $20000 not $100000, the latter being what businesses get fined)

 

 

 

 

That lady comes across as a spoilt, entitled and uninformed brat ....its called a virus lockdown and its specific, correctly,   to her region, that is suppose to mean something. She must educate herself

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, 213374U said:

But at least they ain't dying from corona!

Around here it's going to be getting worse, with numbers of cases possibly comparable to the 1st "wave" albeit not likely as many deaths. I doubt we'll get another lockdown no matter what because the risk of social instability is just too big, and we're guaranteed to see some sort of societal collapse* if the economic crisis gets any worse. So predictably numbers will be massaged and idiocies like wearing a mask in the shower or whatever will be pushed.

*Somewhat relevant: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63657-6

What was that about "listening to scientists", again?

 

We in a similar situation in SA  but economically much much worse ...and we dont have  in the public healthcare sector accurate virus data  and not all hospitals are honestly functional 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

it probably wouldn't be approved in the West because of the high plutonium content

 

 

 

 

 

This plutonium comment cracked me up 

Putin said one of his daughters took the vaccine and she is fine ...what should scare us the most about that comment is have you ever heard Putin mention his kids in any interview ?

[Zoraptor]

The Russian vaccine is far more likely to simply not work than do active harm. Doubt most people knew Putin was even married until he got divorced, his daughter has been mentioned a fair bit but is certainly no Ivanka publicity wise.

4 new non quarantine cases in Auckland here in a single family, so it's back to level 3. Wish I lived 10km down the road, no atrocious Auckland Council only interested in gross city vanity projects, no awful Auckland Transport with no fuel levy to pad AT's coffers and pay for ludicrous central city vanity projects and no (well, fewer) Rona restrictions.

[Malcador]

7 hours ago, BruceVC said:

This plutonium comment cracked me up 

Putin said one of his daughters took the vaccine and she is fine ...what should scare us the most about that comment is have you ever heard Putin mention his kids in any interview ?

Why would him mentioning his kids be scary ? Probably never has any real reason to bring them up - at least in media foreigners would care about.  

[Guard Dog]

OK, this is pretty good:

Alabama High School Principal Makes 'Can't Touch This' Parody About Returning To School

 

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Malcador said:

Why would him mentioning his kids be scary ? Probably never has any real reason to bring them up - at least in media foreigners would care about.  

Its because he only mentioned her as  an example " that the Russian vaccine is safe " and its not about convincing most of the world  because most of the world wont use  any vaccine that has not been through the correct  clinical trials and has evidence it is safe

So he is trying to convince the Russian people its safe.....methinks he convinces too hard

But I do agree with Zora that it is more likely the vaccine simply wont be that effective, I cant imagine it killing thousands as it appears it was tested on the public healthcare staff and several thousand Russian soldiers " volunteered " and they  not dead?

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by BruceVC

[Volourn]

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/shouldnt-happened-father-attributes-sons-140004695.html

Wonder how many people died because 'health experts' who make these kinds of decisions on what is 'neccessary' surgery made the wrong.

 

Things out for my brother and his postponed surgery but others have not been so fortunate.

 

 

EVIL. EVIL TO THE CORE.

[Gorth]

There is always one, isn't there?... But, in Australia they mean business now when people try to avoid quarantine:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53903498

A woman has been jailed for six months in Australia for breaching coronavirus quarantine rules.

Asher Faye Vander Sanden, 28, had spent a month in the state of Victoria, which has been hit heavily by Covid-19.

She was permitted to fly home to Perth, Western Australia, and quarantine in a hotel for 14 days at her own expense.

But she instead arrived secretly in the state in a truck and stayed at her partner's home, where she was later arrested.

In Western Australia, people found to have broken quarantine laws face a maximum penalty of 12 months' imprisonment or a $50,000 (£27,000) fine.

 

For comparison, if you try to smuggle fresh fruit into the interior of South Australia (which is panicking at the thought of people dragging fruit flies into the agricultural areas), the fine is $20000

[Volourn]

Talk to me when your coppers murder someone for not wearing a mask. Ours did, and people cheered. EVIL.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Volourn

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Gorth said:

There is always one, isn't there?... But, in Australia they mean business now when people try to avoid quarantine:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53903498

A woman has been jailed for six months in Australia for breaching coronavirus quarantine rules.

Asher Faye Vander Sanden, 28, had spent a month in the state of Victoria, which has been hit heavily by Covid-19.

She was permitted to fly home to Perth, Western Australia, and quarantine in a hotel for 14 days at her own expense.

But she instead arrived secretly in the state in a truck and stayed at her partner's home, where she was later arrested.

In Western Australia, people found to have broken quarantine laws face a maximum penalty of 12 months' imprisonment or a $50,000 (£27,000) fine.

 

For comparison, if you try to smuggle fresh fruit into the interior of South Australia (which is panicking at the thought of people dragging fruit flies into the agricultural areas), the fine is $20000

This is exactly the correct consequence for anyone in a country that is battling with the virus should face , its pointless trying to get people to accept the responsibility that when they dismiss the obvious virus spread measures that they are putting other peoples lives at risk due to exposure . Its the same as places in the USA 

They arent concerned who they could spread the virus to especially in such an blatant act of carnal pleasure......so you remove them from society. I would like to see 12 months opposed just to set an example. After 12 months in prison the rules will be apparent 

Gorthfuscious that is why I have mentioned sometimes laws have to enforced.....you will suddenly see people wearing masks 

And in the USA its a pity you cant implement a similar law in some states ....that will also reduce some of  the reticence you see from mask denialists and people just rejecting any attempt to have common sense