Politics XXXV (Life in the Vault is about to change)

[Maedhros]

3 hours ago, Skarpen said:

The most socialistic? Out of what? World? Europe? Not in the slightest to both.

Maybe the indexes are flawed or the things they are measuring are not really important or the indexes are designed for certain types of countries to "shine".

What countries? I can think of some who are somewhat similar in social democratic principles, but not one that stands out as more socialistic (Edit: and just to clarify, I use "socialism" like its being used in the 21st century. Meaning high taxes, welfare state, etc). No one is advocating "real" socialism.

Are all the indexes that quantifies things differently but come to the same conclusions flawed? Yes they're designed to make certain countries shine...the countries where most people are happy. The methology varies, but the results are usually the same. Not a coincidence.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Maedhros

[BruceVC]

End of the day old school socialism, like Cuba and Venezuela tried to do, ( no point even discussing if Communism is viable) doesn't lead to any real way to address economic equality apart from the other egregious flaws  the numerous government decisions these countries made 

The Scandinavian countries as mentioned are not " old school socialism " because you have a vibrant private sector that contributes primarily to GDP and has to be profitable  but you have  very strong public institutions that offer services like healthcare and education for free. And generally  people are very happy in  these counties and its a good system but it requires a high tax rate, high employment but more important the average citizen has to buy into the system and support government in the sense you can absolutely take  advantage of  all the great, " free " government stuff but then you will work and contribute towards the tax base and support others who will utilize those public services who come after you

Most countries citizens  just dont really have that mindset of " lets support government " once we have benefited from effective public sector institutions that make our lives better

South Africa is a classic example of this, many citizens ( and especially our dysfunctional unions ) keep expecting government to pay for everything, provide all solutions but  arent really prepared to contribute back to the system. Many of these people would rather attack and malign the private sector and especially the financial sector and accuse them of " being greedy and only interested in profit at the cost of everything else " 

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by BruceVC

[majestic]

32 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Many of these people would rather attack and malign the private sector and especially the financial sector and accuse them of " being greedy and only interested in profit at the cost of everything else "

 

Accusing the financial sector of being greedy and only interested in profit at the detriment of everyone and everything else is also a reputation they worked very hard for, and it is neither entirely undeserved, nor is it going to change for as long as people can get filthy rich by jacking up food and basic needs prices for financial gains. Look at food futures, like 3% of them actually lead to food being bought. Which inversely means 97% of the entire business is only there to make sure you rake in some sweet, sweet money at the expense of starving people.

Are you honestly going to pretend that this is for the good of everyone and not simple, pure greed? What's next, accusing Nestle of being a collection of philantropists?

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, Maedhros said:

What countries? I can think of some who are somewhat similar in social democratic principles, but not one that stands out as more socialistic (Edit: and just to clarify, I use "socialism" like its being used in the 21st century. Meaning high taxes, welfare state, etc). No one is advocating "real" socialism.

Are all the indexes that quantifies things differently but come to the same conclusions are flawed? Yes they're designed to make certain countries shine...the countries where most people are happy. The methology varies, but the results are usually the same. Not a coincidence.

Oh. Well if your definition of socialistic country is "country like Scandinavian countries" then yes, Scandinavian countries are most like Scandinavian countries. Well, duh.

Well what is happiness exactly then? What are the measurements? Does the indexes distinct between country system and population? Like if we take Scandonavians into Russia and vice versa with political systems intact will Scandinavian countries still have happiest people? It's possible that Scandinavian countries rank high because the population would be happy regardless of the country structure? Hard to say without thoroughly checking what and how those indexes calculate into the outcome. 

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

 

Accusing the financial sector of being greedy and only interested in profit at the detriment of everyone and everything else is also a reputation they worked very hard for, and it is neither entirely undeserved, nor is it going to change for as long as people can get filthy rich by jacking up food and basic needs prices for financial gains. Look at food futures, like 3% of them actually lead to food being bought. Which inversely means 97% of the entire business is only there to make sure you rake in some sweet, sweet money at the expense of starving people.

Are you honestly going to pretend that this is for the good of everyone and not simple, pure greed? What's next, accusing Nestle of being a collection of philantropists?

You raise some valid criticism that we have  seen in many sectors before the virus in the last 100 years  where economic data has been recorded , yes there are examples where the private sector has been involved in price hiking and general bad business practice but this isnt a rule, normal or acceptable 

But the majority of private sector companies have to make a profit so the real question is what is reasonable margin? In the financial sector and IT services industry where I work its generally 10-15 % but government tenders you make less like 3-5 % because of the size of the tenders and length of the tender which is anything from 3-5 years before tender renewal

So there isnt a general rule that everyone follows and also remember the more margin or profit a company makes the more taxes they should pay which benefits society and all citizens 

But as far as the virus is concerned it is completely unacceptable to hike prices in this time of crisis, in South Africa our  National Consumer Commission has identified and prosecuted several businesses who have hiked prices so I assume in your country a similar government institution needs to do the same ...so no argument from me around this appalling greed we may see 

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2020-03-26-butchery-owner-arrested-for-price-hiking-during-covid-19-outbreak/

Edited April 17, 2020 by BruceVC

[Pidesco]

[BruceVC]

17 minutes ago, Pidesco said:

QFT

[Maedhros]

To be fair, it's probably better to use Denmark as the example. We've been very lucky with our oil findings (though smart enough to nationalise it).

[Skarpen]

I believe this article gives a fair summation of the nordic model:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/100714/nordic-model-pros-and-cons.asp

[Gorth]

5 hours ago, BruceVC said:

yes there are examples where the private sector has been involved in price hiking and general bad business practice but this isnt a rule, normal or acceptable

You know, there is a reason why the banking sector is universally despised and hated in Australia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Misconduct_in_the_Banking,_Superannuation_and_Financial_Services_Industry

I know it's a wiki link, but as someone who saw the whole thing unfold, I'm actually surprised that bank CEO"s didn't get assassinated in dark alleys

(the background section is the interesting bit)

 

Basically, the biggest hive of scum and villainy you can imagine.

[BruceVC]

43 minutes ago, Gorth said:

You know, there is a reason why the banking sector is universally despised and hated in Australia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Misconduct_in_the_Banking,_Superannuation_and_Financial_Services_Industry

I know it's a wiki link, but as someone who saw the whole thing unfold, I'm actually surprised that bank CEO"s didn't get assassinated in dark alleys

(the background section is the interesting bit)

 

Basically, the biggest hive of scum and villainy you can imagine.

I have no issue with Wikileaks as anyone can use them as reference to do other research to confirm there veracity if a person has the interest in the actual information 

This does seem  like an appalling story of financial greed and shows a real lack of integrity, I also notice at the end there were no criminal charges so that just adds to the general anger towards banks. The people directly involved in this should have been prosecuted 

All I can say in defense is I have many family members who are investment bankers and 2 work in a USA hedge fund but based out of the UK. Most of direct family in SA are in banking including my dad who is now retired and I can promise they would never intentionally be part of this kind of criminal and unethical conduct ( with the exception of 1 uncle who has been incarcerated in the USA for financial irregularities related to 2008)  but I can understand your point and why banks in Oz have such a bad reputation based on this types of developments   

 

 

[Calax]

Honestly, the real problem with investment banking anymore is that they are so focused on the short term gain, that they would prefer to ruin a company for an extra 4% return after 6 months. And when the company does go down in flames, everyone blames various CEO's and Executives who stuck their heads in the sand and "didn't listen to the market"... rather than looking at Charles Icahn or his bro's who forced the changes through with three people on the board of Directors. I mean, look at Yahoo. 15 years ago they were a premier search engine and built on being an Internet business, after constant forced changes by various investors they had to get rid of that core business and change to something else.

Or, My old company, Hertz, used to have an overhead company that unified the cars with HERC (heavy equipment like cherry pickers), and with Trucks (Penske was Hertz old truck division). In various attempts to prop up the stock price they shaved off these other divisions to just be about the Cars, and even that's not doing fantastic.

[Orogun01]

1 hour ago, Calax said:

Honestly, the real problem with investment banking anymore is that they are so focused on the short term gain, that they would prefer to ruin a company for an extra 4% return after 6 months. And when the company does go down in flames, everyone blames various CEO's and Executives who stuck their heads in the sand and "didn't listen to the market"... rather than looking at Charles Icahn or his bro's who forced the changes through with three people on the board of Directors. I mean, look at Yahoo. 15 years ago they were a premier search engine and built on being an Internet business, after constant forced changes by various investors they had to get rid of that core business and change to something else.

Or, My old company, Hertz, used to have an overhead company that unified the cars with HERC (heavy equipment like cherry pickers), and with Trucks (Penske was Hertz old truck division). In various attempts to prop up the stock price they shaved off these other divisions to just be about the Cars, and even that's not doing fantastic.

I remember this video making the rounds last year, seems relevant to the topic

 

[Maedhros]

4 hours ago, Skarpen said:

I believe this article gives a fair summation of the nordic model:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/100714/nordic-model-pros-and-cons.asp

Yeah that's pretty fair overall.

I think it's also fair to say that Progressives in the US are Scandinavian wannabees. Whenever I see AOC I think she must've been a Swede in a previous life.

 

[Orogun01]

54 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

Yeah that's pretty fair overall.

I think it's also fair to say that Progressives in the US are Scandinavian wannabees. Whenever I see AOC I think she must've been a Swede in a previous life.

 

Nah, she's just Maduro on a period.

[Guard Dog]

More good stuff from the land of the "free": https://reason.com/2020/04/17/a-teenager-posted-about-her-covid-19-infection-on-instagram-a-deputy-threatened-to-arrest-her-if-she-didnt-delete-it/

It annoys me in times like this when people lionize the police. I think the whole profession is actually pretty contemptible. It seems to attract the very kind of people who are unsuited to wield any kind of authority. They say power corrupts. I think it's more accurate to say it attracts the corruptible and those with deficient character.

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

 

It annoys me in times like this when people lionize the police. I think the whole profession is actually pretty contemptible. 

I find it unusual that someone like you, a veteran who supports and understands the importance of the military would find the police to be ....contemptuous? 

The police put themselves and there lives on the line in many places everyday, they play a critical role in ensuring the rule of law and order....there would be no civilized society without institutions like the police. Its unhelpful to generalize about an entire profession when there are some examples of bad actors 

In SA there are surveys that tell us people think the police are the " most corrupt institution in the country "  which is utter nonsense as they not. People love to malign the police but if there house is getting broken into by real criminals with the intent to rob\rape\kill the same people attacking the integrity of the police would be expecting, correctly, the police to save them

 

[Skarpen]

9 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

More good stuff from the land of the "free": https://reason.com/2020/04/17/a-teenager-posted-about-her-covid-19-infection-on-instagram-a-deputy-threatened-to-arrest-her-if-she-didnt-delete-it/

It annoys me in times like this when people lionize the police. I think the whole profession is actually pretty contemptible. It seems to attract the very kind of people who are unsuited to wield any kind of authority. They say power corrupts. I think it's more accurate to say it attracts the corruptible and those with deficient character.

So, you not gonna believe the police who has evidence that there were no cases at the time, but you gonna bite unsubstantiated claims that some doctor (a nameless person apparently) told the attention seeker she has coronavirus?  

[213374U]

Just now, Skarpen said:

So, you not gonna believe the police who has evidence that there were no cases at the time, but you gonna bite unsubstantiated claims that some doctor (a nameless person apparently) told the attention seeker she has coronavirus?  

You cannot have evidence that there are no cases.

[Skarpen]

28 minutes ago, 213374U said:

You cannot have evidence that there are no cases.

Uhm, what now? You are telling me that it's impossible to know if there was or wasn't a reported case?! Those things are tracked man...

[Zoraptor]

Eh, you can have evidence that there are no cases- you just cannot have proof. There not being any confirmed cases in the area is evidence there aren't any, though per below it certainly isn't proof in the case of covid19. I still disagree with Skarpen anyway though, since...

Testing is a bit of a clusterasterisk, since the PCRs seem to give up to 30% false negatives. Some places are allowing clinically diagnosed covid-19 cases into their stats while some require a positive PCR. With a clinical diagnosis but no positive PCR she'd be included in stats here, but in many other places she'd not be.

It's definitely heavy handed trying to demand her silence, barring some other unknown factor like her having a history of false claims. If she did have a clinical diagnosis as claimed then there's no way she's spreading panic or anything else that might be actionable. But, I'd also give the police rather more leeway at least for their initial actions than I normally would, as the reputation for scientific tests and the PCR tests they might be familiar with (ie DNA fingerprinting) is that they are highly reliable to near completely infallible.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Zoraptor

[Guard Dog]

4 hours ago, BruceVC said:

I find it unusual that someone like you, a veteran who supports and understands the importance of the military would find the police to be ....contemptuous? 

The police put themselves and there lives on the line in many places everyday, they play a critical role in ensuring the rule of law and order....there would be no civilized society without institutions like the police. Its unhelpful to generalize about an entire profession when there are some examples of bad actors 

In SA there are surveys that tell us people think the police are the " most corrupt institution in the country "  which is utter nonsense as they not. People love to malign the police but if there house is getting broken into by real criminals with the intent to rob\rape\kill the same people attacking the integrity of the police would be expecting, correctly, the police to save them

 

First of all the association of the police and military as having anything to do with each other is EXACTLY the problem. The military makes a terrible police force. And when the police become the military the citizens become the enemy. Yes I shamelessly stole that line from a movie but t is true. And I said the profession is contemptible, not everyone in it.  It's common here to think the majority of police are honest and conscientious civil servants and it's the minority are the heavy handed sadists who think the piece of plastic on their shirt make them a superior human being.  I believe the reverse is true. 

The problem with the entire institution is they have incentivised to cite and arrest. It's a myth that they have "quotas" to meet. But a cop that is not arresting people or writing citations (which come with heavy fines) is thought to not be productive. So what happens when do one is doing anything wrong? 

The story I linked demonstrated either a lack of understanding of the law or the complete disregard of it in the furtherance of a political aim.  And an absolute willingness to use force which makes either reason all the more inexcusable. 

Police are, at best, a necessary evil. But an evil no doubt.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Guard Dog
spelling

[Guard Dog]

Trump takes credit for success and assigns blame for failure: https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-assails-critics-of-his-coronavirus-response-as-he-focuses-on-reopening-u-s-11587149080

Well, what do you know? He's very "Presidential" after all. 

[HoonDing]

LIBERATE PUERTO RICO!

[BruceVC]

5 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

First of all the association of the police and military as having anything to do with each other is EXACTLY the problem. The military makes a terrible police force. And when the police become the military the citizens become the enemy. Yes I shamelessly stole that line from a movie but t is true. And I said the profession is contemptible, not everyone in it.  It's common here to think the majority of police are honest and contentious civil servants and it's the minority are the heavy handed sadists who think the piece of plastic on their shirt make them a superior human being.  I believe the reverse is true. 

The problem with the entire institution is they have incentivised to cite and arrest. It's a myth that they have "quotas" to meet. But a cop that is not arresting people or writing citations (which come with heavy fines) is thought to not be productive. So what happens when do one is doing anything wrong? 

The story I linked demonstrated either a lack of understanding of the law or the complete disregard of it in the furtherance of a political aim.  And an absolute willingness to use force which makes either reason all the more inexcusable. 

Police are, at best, a necessary evil. But an evil no doubt.

I appreciate the  clarification, its  changes how I first viewed what you  were saying and I can understand what you were meaning even if I dont necessarily agree with it all

But just to touch on something you mentioned  around comparing the effectiveness of police vs army in enforcing the law. In SA we have deployed  the army to enforce the lock-down around round blocks and doing work in the townships. This has been criticized by many for basically the same reason you mentioned, people saying  " the military arent good at enforcing the law" ,  We have also has 1 or 2 real incidents of the military being heavy handed and using excessive force but these are now criminal matters and not the norm

In the USA you have the National Guard which can be deployed to address issues like domestic emergencies and disasters, such as those caused by hurricanes, floods, and earthquakes, as well as civil disorder. I consider this pandemic both a global and domestic emergency so surly if the National Guard can be deployed why cant they perform similar duties to the police ?

This point is more applicable to SA because I fear we may have some anarchy as the lock-down continues and quite simply we dont have enough police to ensure law and order. And when I raise this point on talk shows I want to get a balanced view of how  this would work in other countries which is why the USA reality is important to how I want to frame this