Gfted1 Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 Trump criticizes 'failing government schools' as he pushes school choice. Quote Education Freedom Scholarships and Opportunity Act – which would give freedom to states to decide how to set up a program that fits their residents’ needs. States would be able to decide, for example, which students would be eligible for scholarships. State participation would be optional. The goal of the program would be to give every student access to similar educational opportunities, despite where they live or their family’s income. So far, 18 states have adopted voucher programs like the one proposed. Rat bastards. 1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
MedicineDan Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 20 minutes ago, Hurlshot said: Don't even get me started. I laughed out loud. My wife has been a teacher for 32 years. I try not to get her started. :sly smile while polishing my halo: "Not for the sake of much time..."
Gfted1 Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 U.S. Students Show No Improvement in Math, Reading, Science on International Exam. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Guard Dog Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 I blame common core. I don't know what that is but clearly it's the cause of all of this. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Malcador Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 Is our children learning, indeed. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Hurlshort Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 Yes, clearly the best way to improve our public education system is to send more people to private schools. 1
Malcador Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Hurlshot said: Yes, clearly the best way to improve our public education system is to send more people to private schools. Well, could be worse, they could have gone with "Jesus" as a suggested approach. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Hurlshort Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 Also: https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/new-study-confirms-that-private-schools-are-no-better-than-public-schools
Zoraptor Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Gfted1 said: U.S. Students Show No Improvement in Math, Reading, Science on International Exam. Ranking went up though, so if the US education system is stagnating others' systems are actually stagnating worse, and the US system is improving, relatively speaking. Guess that doesn't drive as many clicks as running around shouting about the educational sky falling though, and definitely won't get Betsy and pals all those potential privatisation dollars. (We got exactly the same thing here, except our scores actually did go down- disaster, educational system imploding, will no one think of the children?- but wait a second, our ranking went up? Because others around us had scores drop more so... celebration?) 1
Maedhros Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) The PISA tests are near meaningless. I don't think you'll find many educators who value them. Each country has different practises, and the countries that "teach to the test" will always score better. I know parts of my country even send away the "weak students" to look better when the results come in. Wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if practises like this are common in other countries as well. http://theconversation.com/pisa-global-education-rankings-are-the-road-to-ruin-heres-why-70291 (Also: I really, really hate multiple choice tests). Smaller classes is the way to go. It's the same in kindergartens. The quality of the days when we are 14-15 kids as opposed to 22 of them is worlds apart. The kids have it better, and so do the teachers. More time to build good relations with your pupils/students, and more time to actually teach, is the key here. You gotta have the guts to throw money at the sector for this to happen though. A county in Norway did an experiment where increased the ratio of grownups to kids by hiring in more people in every kindergarten. Instead of losing money due to increased wage payouts, the county actually saved millions due to the sick leave percentage being halfed, and them not having to call in temporary staff anymore. Sometimes you gotta spend money to save money. I'll never not disagree with someone who thinks cutting costs in the Education sector is a good idea. From buildings, school materials, people....it's something actually worth spending a lot of money on (as long as it isn't thrown blindly which has a tendency to happen). Edited February 5, 2020 by Maedhros more words 2
Hurlshort Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 I am all for major educational reform. Yes, a good start would be not throwing 30+ kids in with one teacher and expect they are all going to thrive. 1
Guard Dog Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Hurlshot said: Yes, clearly the best way to improve our public education system is to send more people to private schools. See? Even the teachers agree! "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Agiel Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Hurlshot said: Also: https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/new-study-confirms-that-private-schools-are-no-better-than-public-schools I had a cousin who went to a Christian private school through to the 8th grade and he showed me one of the civics text-book they used, and having skimmed through it perhaps I shouldn't be surprised by the xenophobia expressed by Trump supporters. Edited February 5, 2020 by Agiel 1 Quote “Political philosophers have often pointed out that in wartime, the citizen, the male citizen at least, loses one of his most basic rights, his right to life; and this has been true ever since the French Revolution and the invention of conscription, now an almost universally accepted principle. But these same philosophers have rarely noted that the citizen in question simultaneously loses another right, one just as basic and perhaps even more vital for his conception of himself as a civilized human being: the right not to kill.” -Jonathan Littell <<Les Bienveillantes>> Quote "The chancellor, the late chancellor, was only partly correct. He was obsolete. But so is the State, the entity he worshipped. Any state, entity, or ideology becomes obsolete when it stockpiles the wrong weapons: when it captures territories, but not minds; when it enslaves millions, but convinces nobody. When it is naked, yet puts on armor and calls it faith, while in the Eyes of God it has no faith at all. Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of Man...that state is obsolete." -Rod Serling
ComradeYellow Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Hurlshot said: Yes, clearly the best way to improve our public education system is to send more people to private schools. It reminds me of the raise taxes vs. lower taxes debate. Conservatives claim raising more tax will just lead to the Government hoarding the money for themselves yet it's been proven time and time again that lowering taxes for the rich leads to them hoarding the money and sending to swiss bank accouns and not "creating jobs" Why do people still fall for this crap? What has my generation done to deserve this sorta climate that Stonewall Jackson's talking points would still be a potent force in American public discourse? ****ing baby boomers. What have we done to deserve them? Edited February 5, 2020 by ComradeMaster
Bartimaeus Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) Wow at Romney voting to convict. Knew he supported witnesses, but I figured it was gamesmanship - being the first senator from the same party to vote to convict a president, even if purely a symbolic gesture, is a bit more grand than that. I know he's been slighted many times by Trump before, but still. Edited February 5, 2020 by Bartimaeus 2 Quote How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart. In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance.
Gromnir Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Hurlshot said: I am all for major educational reform. Yes, a good start would be not throwing 30+ kids in with one teacher and expect they are all going to thrive. the 'bove linked foxbiz article is amusing. it ignores actual effects o' school vouchers and who tends to use. is a bit like a tax break on non-pickup motor vehicles exceeding a certain weight which is not used predominant for work. were actual a thing which a few states used in past years. sure, anybody may use the tax break, but it quick becomes apparent the tax incentive is geared towards luxury suvs. now perhaps there is good reasons why a state would wanna encourage luxury suv ownership, but pretend as if the tax break is anything other than a rich guy incentive is skeevy. were also curious 'bout claim democrats had been in favor o' school vouchers. perhaps maybe one or two democrats somewhere, but any kinda general support for vouchers in the past 50 years were unknown to us. did some digging and discovered the current administration lumps in gi bill as being a school voucher program when making claims o' previous democrat support. there is legit arguments for favoring school vouchers, but am not certain why some proponents need so obvious skew and indulge in alternative facts silliness to make a point. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Hurlshort Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 The crazy thing is I would love to see the vocational and trade school stuff brought back into High Schools, and he covered that in the State of the Union as well. It's just hard to celebrate that in between all the rhetoric and sniping.
Gromnir Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 "Were I to ignore the evidence that has been presented and disregard what I believe my oath and the Constitution demands of me for the sake of a partisan end, it would - I fear - expose my character to history’s rebuke and the censure of my own conscience." 2 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Skarpen Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 Another slamdunk win for president Trump. Now the only thing that's left is passing the legislation that allows him to rule till his death...and beyond. What do you think guys? Should he take the tiltle of King or go straight to Emperor?
MedicineDan Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 Romney will undoubtedly be celebrated by the same people who reviled him in 2012. I concede that he believes he did the difficult and right thing, but that's because he fooled himself. I firmly believe his decision was driven by personal animus and (somewhat rightful) resentment of Trump. After all, Trump has ill-treated Romney for years now. I'm not much of a bomb thrower, but I will join with a lot of Republicans to destroy Romney's political career. I don't know if that simply means contributing to a recall effort (which I don't think they even have in Utah) or his primary opponents. If he lived in my state, I would actively campaign, and that's saying something since going door to door is time consuming and I don't have that kind of time. The president is an awful braggart and bully, but this impeachment was absolute folly and I do not believe a right-minded person would have voted to convict. The impeachment did far more lasting harm to the country than anything Trump has done hitherto. ...And I was against the Clinton impeachment also, so my voice came out of the same side of my mouth twenty years ago. Some have suggested that Romney did this for the adoration of the press, which he'll undoubtedly get because everything is good as long as it's against the president right now. I don't think he did it for that reason. I believe he did it to look good in the eyes of history. People who look at the demographics of the past several decades and think that it shows the so called arc of history haven't paid any attention to the last few millennia. To people who believe this will be a fatal wound to Trump... I'm not going to argue. I'll let time make my argument for me. "Not for the sake of much time..."
Gromnir Posted February 5, 2020 Posted February 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, MedicineDan said: I believe he did it to look good in the eyes of history. well, that and conscience, but am agreeing history is a big factor. romney no doubt believes history will not look 'pon the trump Presidency favorable. the thing is, am wondering when medicineD's opinion o' romney changed. were policy stands on medicare or deficit spending? converse, if what changed your opinion o' romney is his position on trump, then am thinking you might have reason to reflect. isn't first time we posted the following: did you mock obama and perhaps cheer romney when we posted in the past? while not a voting republican in 2020, am a conservative as anybody following these boards for a few years could attest. we had more than a few choice words for hillary clinton and barack obama, particular in matters o' foreign policy. 'course we also preffered john kerry to george bush. am a free agent but am, for the most part, a rational fiscal conservative with libertarian views o' fundamental rights. our views has been, for the most part, consistent regardless o' who is running for President. just as our views on deficit spending and national debt didn't change when trump became President, our views o' mitt romney also remained constant. if medicineD's views o' romney has changed, and essential reason for the shift is the utah senator's views o' trump, then am thinking medicineD needs take a step back and reflect a bit, 'cause such would on its face appear to be a condemnation o' medicineD as 'posed to romney. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
MedicineDan Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 Well, I will own that you're right, Gromnir. Not about the basic assumption. My views of Romney started shifting prior to Trump announcing his run. In fact, I think Romney might have been one of the reasons we ended up with Trump. However, where I think you're right is that I need to take a step back. My post was out of anger, and I will not commit to anything in the heat of the moment. Here's the real hypocrisy on my part, though. I'm mad at Romney because I believe his motives were bad. If his motives weren't bad, then I can't 'convict' him. It goes back to the mixed motive idea where there might be more than one reason for an action and we should accept (even if we don't assume) any reasonable motive that would exonerate the other guy. In this case, although I'm still mad as hell at Romney, I have to concede that I shouldn't assume his motives. My personal views of Romney have been pinging around a lot from the time he ran for president until now, and those views don't give license to thoughtless action on anyone's part. That's about as fair an answer as I can give at the moment. I disagree with the idea that my views need to be straightjacketed. No one's should be. In fact, I'm quite forgiving when other people have an evolution of thought process. Typically, I care more about assessing these things than arguing them, but I'm just as prone to the heat of the moment as the next guy. "Not for the sake of much time..."
Gromnir Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 have mentioned previous how our views on affirmative action have changed. am not suggesting one need be straightjacketed. nevertheless, if views change, is good to ask why. explanation is required, yes? otherwise appears, at best, fickle. at worst? we were sympathetic towards bill clinton's impeachment, right up until he perjured himself. the idea the whitewater investigation would lead to a stained dress were kinda embarrassing and we chastised republicans for indulging such obvious overreach. even so, we couldn't accept clinton lying under oath. failure o' republicans to play fair did not exonerate clinton's perjury. am not seeing how so many republicans who sought to political crucify clinton could simple change their mind 'bout what constitutes impeachable offenses and what is a President's duty to comply with Congressional oversight. if you tell us such were an evolution o' thought process you are gonna understand our lack o' faith, yes? reasons offered so far do not appear to be so much fickle as they is mercenary and self serving. from start this whole ukraine thing were all kinda ugly as the wh tried and bury the ig report on the whistleblower complaint regarding the july call 'tween trump and zelensky. ig needed to step up and step forward 'cause wh were not following requirements imposed on them by law regarding an ig report once it were determined to be urgent and credible. am not certain how that issue keeps getting swept aside. is noteworthy such were only the first o' many acts by the wh which had our head spinning. is no excuse whatsoever for burying the ig report, and yes, as is violation o' statute, is technical a crime to fail such reporting. pretty much a day 1 fail... and went downhill from that point. can change mind. however, when the change appears on its face to be partisan or self serving or biased, then am thinking is appropriate for people such as Gromnir to be suspicious o' motives. is hard to believe so many republicans and democrats evolved. w/o some evidence, am not believing the motivations o' either group. however, like it or not, this is one situation where consistency adds credibility in our mind, particular when is consistent and against interest. woulda' been far easier for romney on 2/6/2020 if on 2/5/2020 he had voted not to convict. imagine motives which is contrary to interests is less than compelling and require a bit of imagination, yes? is another situation we ain't gonna change hearts and minds. doomed. nevertheless, am thinking romney is right 'bout history. yeah, republican voters will forgive, but history's rebuke will be felt by more than one senator who did not do as romney and vote their conscience. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
MedicineDan Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 I know it's a popular idea in these parts, but I seriously doubt history looks kindly on the impeachment. First of all, history judges failed attempts harshly. Second, impeachment is truly dire and history will likely think this attempt was unfortunate. More likely, we'll have other partisan impeachments and this impeachment (and to an even greater extent, the Clinton impeachment) will be cited as paving the road for trivial impeachments that will almost always impact the country negatively. Third, while people will have their views colored by their dislike of Trump, the attempt was simply shoddy. Regardless of the vote in the Senate, the case was just bad. It was not just bitterly partisan, it was incompetent. Hey, we can argue about what history will say, but there's probably no point. However, from a historical perspective, there's nothing good about this. Put it this way, if you hate Trump, you should resent the Democrats attempting it in the first place. If you really wanted to see any chance of removing Trump, you should resent the way in which they did it. I'm sure my view will be unpopular, but I'd wager my take on how this will play out in the books is spot on. I'll have to concede the floor at this point. I've been worrying about all this political crap today and I have a ton of stuff to finish before bed. However, if you give me a good thumping, which I *always* appreciate, I'll check in on it tomorrow. :rueful grin: "Not for the sake of much time..."
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