Politics First Contact

[pmp10]

A little break from US politics:
In Netherlands the courts are starting to berate the government over climate inaction.

It's a natural consequence of writing down targets into law and then doing little to meet them. 
I wonder if other countries may actually start to follow.
 

[Skarpen]

24 minutes ago, pmp10 said:

A little break from US politics:
In Netherlands the courts are starting to berate the government over climate inaction.

It's a natural consequence of writing down targets into law and then doing little to meet them. 
I wonder if other countries may actually start to follow.
 

I would say it's a consequence of writing down targets's that you have little to none means of influencing.

[ComradeYellow]

On 12/19/2019 at 7:18 PM, Zoraptor said:

OTOH I think that excluding RT- and VoA/ RFE/RL too for that matter- is fair enough since they're more or less explicitly direct media/ propaganda wings of governments instead of 'independent media'.

Corporate Media vs. State Media

which is better and why?  Discuss!

[smjjames]

9 hours ago, Gorth said:

I believe you’re subject to “The American” way of thinking Comrade. Europeans don’t need tangible reasons like money to start wars. Sheer stupidity in the form of nationalism and hatred, powered by ignorance, is behind much of the killing there.

How much of European history are you looking at? During the Age of Sail/colonialism era/era of empire, the fight over resources, and the control of, were a pretty big driver of conflict, if not a hot war, then piracy/privateering.

[redneckdevil]

21 hours ago, ShadySands said:

Regarding Pence and religion, I don't think he has to be able to force his beliefs on us to be bad. I think just trying to push them and directing the national conversation in such a manner is a bad thing.

I also disagree with the that the left is completely hostile to religion as it is comprised of some groups that as a whole tend to be pretty religious and it also comprises more people from non-Christian beliefs. 

Dunno if you saw that 538 article I posted a little while back about Millennials leaving religion and not coming back but it gets into some of the reasons why, though that's not the main point of the article, and how it's Democrats that are mostly not coming back and suggests some reasons behind that.

The left isn’t hostile to ALL religion, just mainly Christianity.  Which always confused me why the hatred was so stoked against Christianity but would champion the Muslim religion.  Then again I mainly get this image because of our propaganda channels and also because the left didn’t have a problem with Obama being Muslim and didn’t have a problem with him pushing and enacting pro-Muslim ideals but we are worried about Pence...

Then again I’m confused why people think Muslims are considered a “race” and not a religious people like u would call Christians.  

Also I have to keep smh when I hear religion is the cause of all wars when really religion is just the “weapons of mass destruction” to get the population behind the wars.  
 

then again I usually stay outta the discussions because of my ignorance.  

Edited December 21, 2019 by redneckdevil

[ComradeYellow]

57 minutes ago, redneckdevil said:

The left isn’t hostile to ALL religion, just mainly Christianity.   

The Christian right doesn't like the left, therefore...

However, not all Christians are Evangelicals.

[ShadySands]

1 hour ago, redneckdevil said:

The left isn’t hostile to ALL religion, just mainly Christianity.

I think this might seem that way if you just go by random news stories that get cherry-picked and spread around like crazy, true or not, to get people riled up. It's true that the left has more religious diversity but it is still predominately Christian.

1 hour ago, redneckdevil said:

Then again I mainly get this image because of our propaganda channels and also because the left didn’t have a problem with Obama being Muslim and didn’t have a problem with him pushing and enacting pro-Muslim ideals but we are worried about Pence...

Obama is Christian.

 

[ktchong]

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by ktchong

[ComradeYellow]

4 hours ago, redneckdevil said:

 the left didn’t have a problem with Obama being Muslim and didn’t have a problem with him pushing and enacting pro-Muslim ideals but we are worried about Pence...

What are these "pro-Muslim" ideals and when did he push them?

And I always got the impression that Obama was more secular minded than rigidly in the faith. 

[ShadySands]

Obama doesn't surprise me because Democrats overall are more likely to be less hardline and dogmatic when it comes to religion even though they and Republicans are both overwhelmingly comprised of believers. At least according to Pew anyways.

Also interesting, to me at least as I have a weird interest in this kinda stuff, is that the Democrats generally have the support of the two most religious racial and ethnic groups and also the the least religious. 

 

[ComradeYellow]

Yes Democrats being centrists should take a "middle of the road" stance on religion.

[Volourn]

"My hostility to religion is because they are judgmental pieces of s**t who believe in fairy tales and use that belief to oppress everyone that's not in their camp.  I don't cant one bit what anyone "thinks", its what they do. Religion should be outlawed."

Others have covered your foolishness but it should be pointed out again. You mad people want to tell others what to think and oppress them... your response is to do the exact same thing. LMAO

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

HAIL 2 U

[Hurlshort]

The Obama Muslim stuff always cracks me up. I mean, it really does explain just how willing people are to believe that the other party is filled with monsters and super villains. People believed he was Muslim and then had to deal with him as President for 8 long years! How did this country even survive?

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Hurlshot

[injurai]

21 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Corporate Media vs. State Media

which is better and why?  Discuss!

Wrong question.

You don't ask which is better. Both are media by the X. Ergo bias and selective reporting. You want <something analogous to media> by <many different sources> reporting <corporate / state> affairs.

False options like this are exactly the sort of wrong think, by people who support right think use to force through their right think, which is wrong. Right?

[redneckdevil]

2 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

The Obama Muslim stuff always cracks me up. I mean, it really does explain just how willing people are to believe that the other party is filled with monsters and super villains. People believed he was Muslim and then had to deal with him as President for 8 long years! How did this country even survive?

 

Again I blame our propaganda channels for the misinformation that he was Muslim.

 

10 hours ago, ShadySands said:

Obama doesn't surprise me because Democrats overall are more likely to be less hardline and dogmatic when it comes to religion even though they and Republicans are both overwhelmingly comprised of believers. At least according to Pew anyways.

Also interesting, to me at least as I have a weird interest in this kinda stuff, is that the Democrats generally have the support of the two most religious racial and ethnic groups and also the the least religious. 

 

Could it be that they get the support because of mainly race tactics and also treating Muslims as a race as well? As in a tactic against anti-Muslim ideal push back in labeling people racist instead of religious discrimination?

 

not being snide, a lot of our politics and the machine I don’t understand how they are working or how people can be backing them.

 

[Elerond]

6 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

The Obama Muslim stuff always cracks me up. I mean, it really does explain just how willing people are to believe that the other party is filled with monsters and super villains. People believed he was Muslim and then had to deal with him as President for 8 long years! How did this country even survive?

 

Way they quote Regan, sounds more like people quoting biblical saint, than a president, which probably explains lot about american evangelicals view of the world.

[Guard Dog]

I miss the days when Congress stayed in their lane (Article I). The President stayed in his/her lane (Article II). The Court stayed in it's lane (Article III). All of them stayed out of the State governments lanes (Article IV). And everything the US Government could or could not do was contained in just 7500 words over four sheets of paper (10th Amendment). When the powers of the state were limited you didn't need to worry so much about who was running the State. 

I miss, LOL! I was born in 1971. It has never been that way in my lifetime! More is the pity. 

[smjjames]

*sigh* The Guardian has now joined the 'you must sign in/register to read' bandwagon. Or at least it's to a point where I'm now noticing it. Edit: of course though, I can just click 'not now', but still.........

Edited December 22, 2019 by smjjames

[Gfted1]

15 hours ago, Volourn said:

Others have covered your foolishness but it should be pointed out again. You mad people want to tell others what to think and oppress them... your response is to do the exact same thing. LMAO

I want to tell them what to think by outlawing a hate doctrine based on a fairy tale? Thats really what you got from this? Every single one of us on the planet are products of our environment, and most of us are indoctrinated from birth into some religion. When those religious push intolerance then they should gtfo. It honestly boggles my mind that billions of relatively competent people even believe in religion. All because some millennials old, bastardized, edited, and misinterpreted documents tell you so. Do you believe in Betobeto-san too?  

[ComradeYellow]

Freedom of religion is in the Constitution and billions of people DO practice it so downright outlawing it isn't the answer.

The best bet for progressives is to lead by example, show people an alternative non-dogmatic socio-economic approach to living and governing and let the pieces fall where they may.

[Guard Dog]

So one guy wants the entire practice of religion outlawed. What would the penalty be for refusal anyway? The other wants the poor ignorant wretches educated out of it. I guess the idea of live and let live is just a nonstarter for you guys? But hey, who can live under the same sun with someone who's thinking "wrong thoughts" I guess.  Of course I'd say the same thing to the evangelical types who think it's their duty to "save" everyone's souls. As if it were their place to do so. 

That's why we haven't fought our last Civil War. Hell we may not even have fought our second to last Civil War. 

[ComradeYellow]

14 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

That's why we haven't fought our last Civil War. Hell we may not even have fought our second to last Civil War. 

 

I always thought the idea of another one was a joke until early 2017 when it hit me like a **** ton of bricks that it was probably inevitable.

Well, as Marx said, history repeats itself first as a tragedy then as a farce.  I wonder the cost of human life this "farce" would be...

However, just as Lincoln and the Republicans concluded that Southern States were an important part of the union and had to be reunited, I'm sure the Blue+Green coalition will also conclude that the Red Party is also a necessary part of the countries political spectrum.  Which I do agree with, I may not be overfond of right wingers but I consider them necessary to keep the cog wheels of our country running at top shape.

Edited December 22, 2019 by ComradeMaster

[Guard Dog]

19 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

 

I always thought the idea of another one was a joke until early 2017 when it hit me like a **** ton of bricks that it was probably inevitable.

Well, as Marx said, history repeats itself first as a tragedy then as farce.  I wonder the cost of human life this "farce" would be...

However, just as Lincoln and the Republicans concluded that Southern States were an important part of the union and had to be reunited, I'm sure the Blue+Green coalition will also conclude that the Red Party is also a necessary part of the countries political spectrum.

You are assuming the Blue-Green coalition won't the one to secede? calexit push for secession

Besides, I seriously doubt a second CW will look anything like the first. There are no blue or red states in their entirety. Mostly they are all purple. A second CW will be a LOT messier. And if a state did vote to secede I seriously doubt the rest of the country will go to war to keep them. Last time it was happening it was done to protect the practice in slavery. This time is will be over politics. The former was worth fighting over. The latter not so much. 

I figure it this way, for me the 2nd CW begins and ends at my property line. Suppose gun confiscation becomes a thing. I will not comply with it. If they want my guns they will have to come to my home and take them. When they do I will die and kill as many of "them" as I can. Better to die that day as a free man defending his home and property than live the day after in a country where the government can send armed thugs to take whatever it wants. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. 

If they don't come to my home my guns will never trouble anyone. I'd say the same thing about my bible or my chainsaw or my dogs of the bottle of bourbon on top of my fridge. Gromnir once accused me of fetishizing my firearms. But he was wrong. It's about private property. Everything inside my property line is mine. Exclusively mine. The soil I plant my garden in, the home I live in, the things I bought and paid for inside it, all mine. THAT I will fight for. Pass all the laws they want and I won't care. Take one hair off one of my dogs, one feather off a chicken, one leaf off a tree and I'm going to be shooting. That is what a 2nd Civil War looks like. Individual armed citizens fighting back. It will be awful, bloody, probably futile but maybe not. 

Edit: A few pages back I told you I was the biggest anti-marxist on the board. This is why. Collectivism is abhorrent to me. The labor of my hands, the ideas in my mind, the fruits of those are mine. Exclusively mine. Everything I have I worked for. They will only be taken from me by violence and so I will defend them with violence.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Guard Dog

[ComradeYellow]

1 minute ago, Guard Dog said:

You are assuming the Blue-Green coalition won't the one to secede? calexit push for secession

Nobody with a brain took Calexit seriously.

Also, I don't recall anyone claiming they want to come to your home and take your guns, there is a 2nd amendment after all and I've already stated my person view on gun control which is quite modest by left wing standards.

And there's more to life and the world around you than living bunkered in a shack out in the woods armed to the teeth.  That's a very reactionary viewpoint.