Is this news about Pillars 3?

[Wormerine]

14 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I somehow doubt that he's making a non-violent, classless historical RPG with turn-based mode. 

Perhaps the long hyped bike simulator?

[Elric Galad]

13 hours ago, MedicineDan said:

If they use the same engine, they already have turn based and RTwP .  Are they using a new engine that we know?  I mean, I was enjoying Deadfire before they included turn-base mode.  I just enjoy it more now.

Problem is that the game is currently balanced around RTwP. TB isn't bad but it is mostly meant as a bonus. Since the TB Crowd is largeur, I think they should go this route from a sales perspective. Too Bad TB wasn't an ATB so both systems would be close enough to maintain TB and RTwP.

[Boeroer]

33 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

Perhaps the long hyped bike simulator?

Bike simulators can't be non-violent. General law of nature...

[3x0du5]

Pillars is RTWP game, going for TB on PoE3 would be admitting that they spent decade developing rtwp franchise and failed miserably I strongly believe they not gonna do that they might go with both RTWP and TB from the start for PoE3 but there will always be rtwp combat if they decide to make direct isometric sequel.

TB combat in general is very boring and gets even worse while game progresses there are plenty of games with TB and the only ones worth playing are good for others things and not their TB combat

[Boeroer]

Pillars of Eternity is an IP in the first place. As the P&P version shows that doesn't mean it's tied to a specific ruleset or mode. That "Pillars" game that was mentioned could be a turn based game that is not called PoE3. Something like Battle Brothers on Eora (no fat story, no complex companion-stuff and no complex quests make developing such a game a lot easier) - or it could even be a card game like Obsidian's Pathfinder or an Action-RPG. Nobody (here) knows.

I agree though that if it's PoE3 (desigend to be the successor to PoE2 and Deadfire) it should contain RTwP. But I also expect it to come with TB mode - just because they now have experience with implementing both and it opens the game up to more potential customers.

I personally would have no problem with a TB-only PoE3 though. RTwP can be very messy - but in Deadfire the enounters have too many enemies for TB mode (esp. om PotD) for my taste (drags the encounters a lot). If you become too powerful on RTwP you tend to just select all, klick on enemy, dies, next enemy, dies, next enemy. I don't now - I like my fights a bit more... tactical.

[ArnoldRimmer]

I wouldn't play a turned based only version.

Edited September 29, 2019 by ArnoldRimmer

[Boeroer]

edit: aaand we're cool!

Edited September 29, 2019 by Boeroer

[ArnoldRimmer]

Bad day... You are right. I shall delete my post.

[Boeroer]

Thehe - now I have to delete mine as well or I'll look like a total weirdo.

[3x0du5]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

If you become too powerful on RTwP you tend to just select all, klick on enemy, dies, next enemy, dies, next enemy. I don't now - I like my fights a bit more... tactical.

And thats why they should focus on improving RTWP combat making it more tactical and challenging instead of spending time and resources on TB, sadly obsidians understanding of challenging combat is spawning more enemies and giving them more defences but maybe that can improve on 3rd try 

[Boeroer]

You can do that. But it will always be messier than turn based combat by nature. The reason to introduce RTwP was to make the combat more fast paced while still being able to somewhat plan your actions.

Also bringing smarter enemies etc. would work for both modes, that's nothing that RTwP would especially benefit from compared to Turn Based. Actually TB mode poses the higher motivation to reduce the number of enemies and make fights more challenging in other ways (like most TB games emphasize on) - else it would drag horribly. 

I'm also not saying that a PoE3 should come with TB only. Just because of nostalgia you shouldn't do that. But also because they have a current system that works well (with all the durations which are based on seconds, stride, action speed and recovery time mechanics and so on). Why would they want to scrap that? 

What I'm saying is that neglecting TB mode would be a mistake. I don't play Deadfire on TB mode by the way.  

Respect Turn Based Mode - it is the original role playing mode. (A)D&D - until today - is played in turns. So are most other P&P RPGs I know. If you are a fan of P&P RPGs chances are that you would like TB mode in a CRPG.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Boeroer

[Wormerine]

3 hours ago, 3x0du5 said:

TB combat in general is very boring and gets even worse while game progresses there are plenty of games with TB and the only ones worth playing are good for others things and not their TB combat

That's purely your preference, nothing more. Real-Time and Turn Based have their advantages and some people prefer one over another (or both for different reasons like me!) There are plenty great TB games. Funnily enough, while PoEs are great, it is not because they play in RT.

Whenever TB is worth investing Obsidian should know the best after their little experiment with Deadfire. PoE system didn't translate perfectly into TB but it wasn't bad either (it had problems, but it was still enjoyable). If audience interested in TB only is big enough, it might be worth adding even if it will be mechanicly inferior to RTwP. I did full playthrough in TB mode, and it was quite fine.

Ideally, I would love to see both modes available for PoE3 with ability to switch between them. We do have a few turn based RPGs, so I certainly would prefer if PoE still focused mainly on being RTwP RPG, and unlike competition, it's mechanics are designed to work in RT.

[MedicineDan]

On one hand, I'll generally push for turn based combat.  When I was younger, I think it allowed me to consider my options and make decisions and feel like I was clever.  Now, I'm too lazy to pretend that it's anything other than easier for me to keep track of things.  RTwP, which has provided hours upon hours of fun for me over the years spread across many games, is wonderful, but it's never been my first choice.

If it comes down to which squeakier wheel is aiming for the grease, put me in the quietly humming crowd who will be happy for the devs to figure out which one is better and create *that* game.

[3x0du5]

1 hour ago, MedicineDan said:

Now, I'm too lazy to pretend that it's anything other than easier for me to keep track of things

Thats the point TB will always be easier than rtwp and because of that it will always be less exciting in the end.

I never played any TB game more than twice first time you just explore the game second time you go trough it on hardest difficulty and big chance is that you will never open the game again, on the other hand RTWP games I can play over and over again because the combat gameplay is different with every new char you make meanwhile in TB they are all just standing there and you use different animations to finnish encounters TB is actually a lot like all the console games where you need to press X and cool **** which you cant control  happens on the screen, rtwp combat has way more depth compared to TB, however good rtwp combat is way harder to make for developers compared to TB thats why we barely if ever see rtwp games and those usually have same issues again and again but considering this would be 3rd attempt for obsidian on basically same game I just hope to finally see a game with polished rtwp combat obsidian is definitely going in right direction just they somehow never manage to polish their games, thats a problem that might be in the past now with Microsoft involved 

[MedicineDan]

I want to start out that I won't hold a grudge for anyone advocating for his or her desired feature.  If the group that feels strongly about RTwP gets its way, I won't gripe endlessly about it.  So, I'm not hashing out this post with furious fingers and rage filled hands.

You might find RTwP more exciting, 3x0du5, but I don't.  I think it quickly gets messy in a way that overshadows tactical decisions.  In Pillars 1, even being extremely careful, a lot of combat would come down to competing mobs.  Yes, positioning still played a role.  It wasn't always about two mobs clashing in the middle of the screen, but it often came down to that in my game.  I haven't spent a lot of time watching gaming videos, but the ones I've seen fairly mimic my own experiences playing the game.  So, I prefer turn based because I personally feel I get more out of the various build decisions than I do out of RTwP.  In fact, RTwP encourages me to select passive abilities more often than I normally would just so I don't have keep track of them.  If people believe that's a deficiency on my part, fair enough.  I don't agree, but I won't take it personally either.

However, with that said, I do have sympathy for people who've followed the franchise the whole time.  I remember RTwP was pretty much central to the original crowd funding scheme.  I didn't like it, but I figured that a lot of my favorite games have been RTwP and I would enjoy it.  I did.  I was happily playing Deadfire before the happy surprise that I had a turn-based option newly available.  That's why I'm not going to engage in the battle over the decision in a prospective third installment.  I guess I'm just generally kibitzing about the option rather than hard-core arguing over it.

[3x0du5]

My intention was never to discuss whats better RTWP or TB and I played way more TB games than RTWP ones ( not that there is a choice tho ) . Anyway my point was that Pillars started as rtwp game and should end that way, and my problem with TB mode being implemented into Deadfire and possibly upcoming game is that : obsidian cant even polish their rtwp combat or character skills/abilities and even some fundamental game mechanics and adding another combat mode on top of other unpolished parts of the game is just not the brightest idea, they easily could have spent all that post production time on polishing the game instead of adding TB mode and Woedicas crap dialogue.

Edited September 29, 2019 by 3x0du5

[Wormerine]

4 hours ago, 3x0du5 said:

on the other hand RTWP games I can play over and over again because the combat gameplay is different with every new char you make meanwhile in TB they are all just standing there and you use different animations to finnish encounters TB is actually a lot like all the console games where you need to press X and cool **** which you cant control  happens on the screen

 That makes so little sense (aside that you clearly prefer RTwP) I won't attempt to explain that in both RTwP and TB Deadfire you have exactly as much imput. But I must say that you miss a lot as there are plenty of super replayable, brilliantly designed turn based games. 

Whatever qualms I have with the fairly shallow FiraXCOMs I am greatful that nonsense like that is fairly rare nowadays. 

2 hours ago, 3x0du5 said:

they easily could have spent all that post production time on polishing the game instead of adding TB mode and Woedicas crap dialogue.

Any particular area requiring polishing? Also Woedica's content is great, addressing a major narrative problem, in a story driven RPG. Not to mention, that the writer won't fix whatever problems you see in combat.
In addition according to Josh, which Turn-Based system wasn't a small thing to added it was worth doing, and was small compared to ship combat system - so why not have for PoE3 no unnecessary minigame and a RTwP/TB system instead?

 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Wormerine

[Boeroer]

 

16 hours ago, 3x0du5 said:

My intention was never to discuss whats better RTWP or TB and I played way more TB games than RTWP ones ( not that there is a choice tho ) . Anyway my point was that Pillars started as rtwp game and should end that way, and my problem with TB mode being implemented into Deadfire and possibly upcoming game is that : obsidian cant even polish their rtwp combat or character skills/abilities and even some fundamental game mechanics and adding another combat mode on top of other unpolished parts of the game is just not the brightest idea, they easily could have spent all that post production time on polishing the game instead of adding TB mode and Woedicas crap dialogue.

 Adding "Woedica's crap dialogue" so that players do understand the lore and story better IS polishing the game. This was done based on feedback of the community who said that it's easy to miss certain points of the story. I think it's one of the best patched additions to the game - after the additional subclasses. There was so much polishing with Deadfire going on after release that I find it rather silly to harp on that specific aspect.  

This statement - as the rest - is only your opinion. The same as the assumption that one could make a RTwP game as Deadfire a lot less messy and create something that is on par with TB combat when it comes to tactical depth with just more polishing, knowledge and skill. I don't know if there's a company out there which has more experience and more skill with RTwP implementations than Obsidian has, let alone the funds and the willingness to attempt a RTwP game - just to prove your assumtion.

Pillars of Eternity - as an IP - is not bound to any specific mode or ruleset as we can see: else we wouldn't have the Tabletop Version which uses - no surprise - a turn based ruleset which is classless and very different from the two CRPGs.

Should they continue to bring and improve RTwP if they decide to make a successor (a third isometric, party based Pillars RPB with the Watcher)? I do think so. It would be very weird if they didn't. Does that mean it shouldn't come with both combat modes? No. 

If we learned anything from the introduction of TB mode it is that now Deadfire game appeals to a lot more potential customers: We saw a surge in sales numbers as soon as TB mode was introduced. If Obsidian would make a PoE3 with the same/similar engine and ruleset and not leave TB mode in - they would bid adieu to a big chunk of customers in spe. Why would they do that? That would most likely be economically stupid. And I'd rather have a realized PoE3 with good RTwP/TB mode than a non-existent PoE3 with perfect RTwP mode.

I'm trying to be objective. Again: I don't play TB mode with Deadfire. I started this ride on RTwP and am not willing to change that. But that doesn't mean that TB mode is bad or that people who prefer it are dumb, millenials, console gamers (which intrinsically seems to mean they are bad players) who like to press x - or whatever kind of subjective and prejudiced pablum gets brought forth to make TB and the players who like it look somehow inferior (to prove which point exactly?).

Just because one likes cake doesn't mean that

• pie is the inferior pastry
• people who like pie are epicurean savages
• cake would appeal to more pie lovers if it just was done better and had more icing
• every new pastry in the shop should be cake or at least there has to be more cake in the shop as a general rule
• one can't like pie as well

It's just liking cake then, nothing else.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Boeroer

[daven]

deleted

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by daven

[3x0du5]

Answer this to me :

 

Why would I play turn based pillars when there are actually good games with TB like DOS 2 for example

 

P.S. Cake is superior to pie - come fight me 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by 3x0du5

[Wormerine]

55 minutes ago, 3x0du5 said:

Why would I play turn based pillars when there are actually good games with TB like DOS 2 for example

You wouldn’t. You don’t like turn based but someone else who prefers turn based would play it this way. The fact that the option doesn’t offer value just for you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t offer value to other players (nor that adding it detracts from your personal enjoyment. It might spread resources thin, or it might lead to better expected sales and overall increase games production, who knows).

I personally didn’t care for the combat in DOS2, and I find Deadfire systems much more enjoyable, even in their imperfect turn based form. 

[3x0du5]

But it has nothing to do with me liking or not liking TB as in that scenario i already picked to play TB game now its a choice between dos2 and deadfire both tb , why would i play pillars over dos in tb ? Dos is superrior game in all aspects( not my opinion but a fact just look at the sale numbers, players or critic receptions or whatever way u want to compare these tb games dos2 is just better)

To boeroer : Being the biggest rtwp release in decade is what sells pillars games, naturally they got additional sales after releasing TB that was the whole point of doing it but you somehow miss the point that sales were bad in the first place and they were bad because game  is a mess even after so many patches. And releasing another messy mode just to grab some quick cash is horrible business practice.

Edited September 30, 2019 by 3x0du5

[daven]

13 minutes ago, 3x0du5 said:

But it has nothing to do with me liking or not liking TB as in that scenario i already picked to play TB game now its a choice between dos2 and deadfire both tb , why would i play pillars over dos in tb ? Dos is superrior game in all aspects( not my opinion but a fact just look at the sale numbers, players or critic receptions or whatever way u want to compare these games dos2 is just better)

To boeroer : Being the biggest rtwp release in decade is what sells pillars games, naturally they got additional sales after releasing TB that was the whole point of doing it but you somehow miss the point that sales were bad in the first place and they were bad because game  is a mess even after so many patches. And releasing another messy mode just to grab some quick cash is horrible business practice.

 

'Is just better'. That's it guys everyone pack your bags and go home. We were all wrong liking this game, lets just go play DOS2 instead, even though i have played it and don't like it. '3x0du5' has shown us the light by saying it is just better. 

And apparently if something sells more it is just better. Like Adam Sandler films, are just better than anything which makes less money... apparently.

Edited September 30, 2019 by daven

[3x0du5]

Well DoS2 is superior turn based game compared to turn based pillars deadfire no other way to say it 

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, 3x0du5 said:

you somehow miss the point that sales were bad in the first place and they were bad because game  is a mess even after so many patches.

What makes you think I missed that? Since it didn't play any role in this discussion so far I wouldn't say it wasn't an important point that had to be met.

And how could I even miss that point of yours when that now was the first time you brought that up?

The point that you seem to miss is that there is a RTwP mode AND a Turn Based mode already. Why would they throw one away? If they are making a PoE3 on the base of Deadfire it would be unwise to not release both modes. Maybe even as DLC or whatever - doesn't really matter.
Why not releasing both? That's what I'm saying.
The reason why I think they should release both is that there is evidentially a bigger target audience then. And in no way would you get the same size of target audience of you just perfected the RTwP experience. Not matter how great your RTwP mode is - it will never be the reason to buy the game for the TB mode crowd. And the RTwP crowd would buy the game even if it's not the perfectly polished experience - because as you said there's no other RTwP alternative...

The other point I made (for several posts now) is that opinions, tastes and likings don't equal facts and sound reasoning. That's a very universal and basic point that always applies. Nobody is really free of subjectivism - but one could at least try. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Boeroer