[MECHANICS] Various Testing

[Elric Galad]

I couldn't find answers on the Internet to some of my own questions, so I made some tests. I wanted to share my results. I hope some of them could be useful.

 

1) Enfeeble is applied to itself

Enfeeble extends the duration of hostile effects. And enfeeble is an hostile effect iself.
Enfeeble does extend its own duration. That means, for example, that Heart Seeker applies 30s of Enfeeble on non-resistant foes (without taking into account INT and PL).

Additional tip : that also applies to Weakening abilities targeting vulnerable foes, which makes Toxic Strike extremely potent against them (since its damages increase with duration).

 

2) Stoic Steel can charge up before battle

So if you start battle after 18s of immobility, you start with +3AR. I've never been aware of it before today.

This makes Stealth interesting for Paladins ^^

Additional tip : some of the "teleporting" abilities such as escape don't cancel Stoic Steel. I haven't test all of them.

 

3) Gambit refund only works on first hit/main target

Even if you use a multi-shot (classic blunderbuss) or AoE weapon (mortars), you'll get the refund only if 1st roll on main target.

So to get the complete refund, you'll need to dual wield and score 2 crits with the 2 "main" attacks. It is still good to get some AoE crits, but don't except a refund.

I haven't test it with WotEP.

 

4) Heart Seeker doesn't apply Bounce or AoE.

I have tested it with Watershaper focus, and only foes in the ability line can be hit. There is no double hits due to Bounce or rod's AoE.

 

5) Whirling Strikes does apply Bounce.

You need to equip a melee weapon to perform whirling strike. However, if you hold a ranged weapon in your other hand, you'll attack with it too, and it will even trigger Bounce with Driving Flight.

This makes Melee & Ranged dual wield somewhat attrative for ranged, especially with Scordeo's Trophy.

 

6) "Thunder Rolled..." upgrade

"...its crash could not be denied" apply a +15 Accuracy bonus, which is fine IMHO. The description does not specify it but you can read it by picking the ability and checking its accuracy before or during battle.

 

7) Unbending not triggered by Take the Hit

Self damages from Take the Hit does not proc Unbending regeneration. It could have been a nice combo, but nay...

 

8 ) Garrote complete description

The description is vague, so here is how it actually works :

• 6s paralysis (modified by INT / PL) as described.
• During paralysis, the target takes about 4 raw damages per tick (1s tick !), modified by MIG / PL.
• After paralysis, the target is prone (so the 3s Prone are added to Paralysis duration for the total duration of incapacitation)
• After paralysis, the target also received 20 raw damages, modified by MIG / PL.

Overall, it sounds nice and scales quite well. On a Single Class Paladin with max MIG and INT, it does around 120 raw damages total. It might be nice with an Helwalker or a SC class Paladin (since DoT gets double benefit from PL and SC Paladin might get a lot of zeal to spend from Divine Retribution and downed summons).

Edited May 25, 2019 by Elric Galad

[MaxQuest]

Didn't know that effect that applies Enfeeble will get +50% duration even if the target was not enfeebled before)

 

Btw, how do you guys feel about Unbending? It was nerfed soon after release, but starting with v2.1 the duration increase actually increases it's total healing done.

A level 20 fighter with 23 MIG/22INT will heal for 100% of damage taken (*) over 30s with Unbending Trunk. And that's without +healing items.

* damage that goes through attack resolution.

Edited May 25, 2019 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

@MaxQuest With regards to the Steel Garrote description, shall we update it for the community patch?

I thought we could also amend Priests’ descriptions to include favored and disfavored dispositions for both.

[Phenomenum]

Week ago, i've tried to find Steel Garrote status effects to add damage into description, but couldn't find it((

[Boeroer]

Gambit does generate Guile internally (with mortars you'll get an insane amount of dmg bonus based on your temporary Guile gain) - but it gets cut back (capped) after execution.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

44 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Gambit does generate Guile internally (with mortars you'll get an insane amount of dmg bonus based on your temporary Guile gain) - but it gets cut back (capped) after execution.

Yes, I've seen the big numbers on the second shot.
What seemed strange is that even if I had crits on the secondary target of the mortars, I only got 4 Guile back if the main target received a crit on the mortar shot.
Or at least, 2+ crits doesn't translate to 4 Guile. It depends on which shot got the crit.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

9) Surprisingly, Shattered Pillars can use Mortification of the Soul to get wounds as other subclass. But they receive damages according to their own Wound Threshold (usually for damages inflicted) that is 3x higher (30 raw damages or 24 with lesser wounds).

I think this is an interesting back-up plan for shattered pillar, even if it costs more. 

I've found a Boeroer post stating that Mortification of the Soul can be used by Forbidden Fist too, I suppose with normal value since they don't have specific wound threshold ??

[Boeroer]

I noticed no difference to Helwalker or Nalpasca monks in that regard. 

[Elric Galad]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I noticed no difference to Helwalker or Nalpasca monks in that regard. 

That makes Mortification of the Soul extremely convienent for FF, especially if you mostly plan to stack wounds for Duality and its upgrades, Razor's edge or Tuotilo's Palm !

[Boeroer]

Yes, but to be honest it's faster and more effective to use Forbidden Fist instead of Mortification otS. Only if your RES is stellar of course - but that should be the case anyway when you play a Forbidden Fist. Usually the curse lasts less than 2 secs with lots of RES and some other hostile-effect-duration debuff (from food and/or items). And you get 1 wound for it when it expires. Mortification has longer recovery than that, also damages you and also gives you 1 wound. Also Hylea's Talons will put a small DoT on you all the time. With high RES its very short, too, giving you another wound when it expires. And then Eduring Dance synergizes prettty well with a high defense Monk who has CC capabilites. Because of all that I hardly used Mortification otS after some levels. In the early game it's golden though. But after some levels I think I would retrain. 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Sometimes, modding leads to surprisin discoveries (all the things below have been tested before moding the abilities of course) :

Shadowed Hunters

- First pet attack after using Shadowed Hunters don't break invisibility. Only the second does.

 

Shadowing Beyond and Enduring Shadows :

- First attack After Shadowing Beyond doesn't brake Deflection buff, only second does (since attack rolls are counted, blunderbuss or similar attack could lead to immediate Deflection break, but I have not tested it). Only Inivisibility brakes on the first attack.

- First attack After Enduring Shadows brakes Deflection buff, which makes it pointless.

Note that Shadowing Beyond was tested with Skaen Priest version. It might be different with Rogue Version (but if different, it would be just another glitch.

I admit I am not sure of what is supposed to be the intended behavior. The description is totally vague about when the Deflection Bonus is supposed to apply (Of course, I'm going to mod that).

- Swift Inspiration from Enduring Shadows only breaks at the end of the timer.


Magran's Might :

- Tick every second, contrary to what the description state.

- There is no AoE (it is so small that only main target is affected)

[Elric Galad]

Debonaire Buff to target and Charm are separate effects. Which means if Charm Duration is reduced (which happens if the target has more than 10 Resolve), the target will stay buffed after the end of the charm effect. To use with caution vs foes who can reduced Hostile Effects !

[Boeroer]

Rofl. Hilarious. On the other hand: foes with low Resolve will have longer charm than buff, correct? Maybe cast some Miasma or Psychovampiric Shield first...

[thelee]

On 3/28/2020 at 10:07 AM, Elric Galad said:

Shadowing Beyond and Enduring Shadows :

- First attack After Shadowing Beyond doesn't brake Deflection buff, only second does (since attack rolls are counted, blunderbuss or similar attack could lead to immediate Deflection break, but I have not tested it). Only Inivisibility brakes on the first attack.

- First attack After Enduring Shadows brakes Deflection buff, which makes it pointless.

Note that Shadowing Beyond was tested with Skaen Priest version. It might be different with Rogue Version (but if different, it would be just another glitch.

I admit I am not sure of what is supposed to be the intended behavior. The description is totally vague about when the Deflection Bonus is supposed to apply (Of course, I'm going to mod that).

- Swift Inspiration from Enduring Shadows only breaks at the end of the timer.

since you're finding weird internal mechanics, maybe you could solve a riddle for me. Invisibility/untargetability for Shadowing Beyond/Enduring Shadows seems to break upon first action, right? Yet when enemies use it, it really seems like their untargetability lasts until the end of the innate duration--if enemies attack me in the middle of their shadowing beyond, they are visible to me, yet I literally can't target them with anything, so I just have to run away until their Shadowing Beyond/Enduring Shadows buff goes away.

Do AI-controlled rogues/rogue-types have their own Shadowing Beyond/Enduring Shadows that is different from humans'? What's going on here?

 

edit - it is utterly inscrutable to me what the intent of the deflection bonus is for shadowing beyond/enduring shadows. Long time ago, I thought it was so that any attacks that were still mid-flight could miss, but this was before I figured out that invisibility means absolute untargetability. It seems like it would be way too good if +50 deflection lasted the entire 10/20 seconds [though it is a 3 guile ability], but any other effect in between seems weird.

Edited April 3, 2020 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

since you're finding weird internal mechanics, maybe you could solve a riddle for me. Invisibility/untargetability for Shadowing Beyond/Enduring Shadows seems to break upon first action, right? Yet when enemies use it, it really seems like their untargetability lasts until the end of the innate duration--if enemies attack me in the middle of their shadowing beyond, they are visible to me, yet I literally can't target them with anything, so I just have to run away until their Shadowing Beyond/Enduring Shadows buff goes away.

Do AI-controlled rogues/rogue-types have their own Shadowing Beyond/Enduring Shadows that is different from humans'? What's going on here?

Well, only Imp does get an alternate version, and the code looks "normal" so for now it's still a riddle.

Quote

edit - it is utterly inscrutable to me what the intent of the deflection bonus is for shadowing beyond/enduring shadows. Long time ago, I thought it was so that any attacks that were still mid-flight could miss, but this was before I figured out that invisibility means absolute untargetability. It seems like it would be way too good if +50 deflection lasted the entire 10/20 seconds [though it is a 3 guile ability], but any other effect in between seems weird.

Value the right cost for an ability is complicated, and I am a believer that most 2+ costing abilities cost too much. So +50 for 3 Guiles would have been... strong but okay. For 3 Guiles a SC Rogue gets God Mode for 5s (+modifier).

Arcane Veil is basically +50 Deflection for 12s and scale more with PL, but does not protect against a couple of veil piercing attacks. I tend to value Tier II spell as equivalent 1-cost abilities (based on what I call the "trickster equivalence table"). So the Deflection Component of Shadowing Beyond can be valued around 1 IMHO. For Enduring Shadow, I would say that it could be valued "a generous 1 Guile". I tend to be a bit generous with SC Tier VIII and IX abilities.

For my own mod, I wanted Shadowing Beyond to cost 2 Guiles because it is the most convenient way to assassinate. 20s of +50 Deflection with Enduring Shadow was just too much and even for the base Shadowing Beyond, it was a bit too much, so I tuned down the value to +30. 

I am trying to avoid powercreeping, but I guess it's hard because it's a natural tendancy. (but I nerfed Trickster and Streetfighter so I hope it compensates ).

Edited April 3, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

11 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Rofl. Hilarious. On the other hand: foes with low Resolve will have longer charm than buff, correct? Maybe cast some Miasma or Psychovampiric Shield first...

Fortunately, it is cancelled when the charmed target is attacker, so the subclass is still fine.

[thelee]

12 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Well, only Imp does get an alternate version, and the code looks "normal" so for now it's still a riddle.

what does the imp get?

so when those xaurip plaguestrikers go invisible, they use the identical ability as player-created rogues? continues to be a mystery

Edited April 4, 2020 by thelee

[thelee]

15 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Arcane Veil is basically +50 Deflection for 12s and scale more with PL, but does not protect against a couple of veil piercing attacks.

ok, so upon reflection maybe +50 deflection for lengthy time for 3 guile is reasonable (I just now thought of doing 3x Escapes, which I have definitely done). I do note that as someone who has used arcane veil and escape a lot in his deadfire career, i value escape's unconditional effect a lot. there are a surprising amount of enemy gunfire (along with veil piercing attacks) in deadfire. So I think Arcane Veil is more vulnerable than just "a couple of veil-piercing attacks" and so an unconditional effect should be weighted more expensively.

it's ironic because in poe1 arcane veil was a more fundamental ability but enemy gunfire was so rare (and they didn't target wizards opportunistically) that its veil-piercing vulnerability was irrelevant. here in deadfire it feels way more relevant (and the AI punishes glass cannons more), but it's only available to a specific priest subclass and as one out of many AL2 wizard spells.

Edited April 4, 2020 by thelee

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

[...] and as one out of many AL2 wizard spells.

Grimoires though

[Elric Galad]

3 hours ago, thelee said:

 

what does the imp get?

so when those xaurip plaguestrikers go invisible, they use the identical ability as player-created rogues? continues to be a mystery

Imps get a carbon copy of the ability with carbon copies of status. So there could have been variant, but I can't find any relevant to what you describe.

Xaurip plaguestrikers get a carbon copy of the ability that point to PC variant statuses. So the status should have the exact same effect unless some "deep bug" is involved. Are you sure it doesn't dispell on the second attack roll ?

3 hours ago, thelee said:

ok, so upon reflection maybe +50 deflection for lengthy time for 3 guile is reasonable (I just now thought of doing 3x Escapes, which I have definitely done). I do note that as someone who has used arcane veil and escape a lot in his deadfire career, i value escape's unconditional effect a lot. there are a surprising amount of enemy gunfire (along with veil piercing attacks) in deadfire. So I think Arcane Veil is more vulnerable than just "a couple of veil-piercing attacks" and so an unconditional effect should be weighted more expensively.

it's ironic because in poe1 arcane veil was a more fundamental ability but enemy gunfire was so rare (and they didn't target wizards opportunistically) that its veil-piercing vulnerability was irrelevant. here in deadfire it feels way more relevant (and the AI punishes glass cannons more), but it's only available to a specific priest subclass and as one out of many AL2 wizard spells.

True, I didn't say vulnerability was irrelevant. It might be especially significant for Solo playthrough. With a party, you have enough possible tactics to be robust to specific encounters.

Anyway, I think +50 for 3 Guiles is also a bit "out of the place" or more accurately "out of the class" unless maybe if playing Trickster. It might turn Rogue (especially SC) into Tanks which they are not supposed to be (or only for short duration). 
That's why I tuned down it a bit for my mod (just changed +30 to +25 because of powercreeping risk). Once more we have no way of figuring the intention of the devs if any so I'm trying to find something that feels "right". It is a bit difficult to adjust since Deflection is a stat with increasing return, but +20 Deflection is a quite common buff (SofF, Staff modal), so I hope +25 is not too much.

[thelee]

8 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Xaurip plaguestrikers get a carbon copy of the ability that point to PC variant statuses. So the status should have the exact same effect unless some "deep bug" is involved. Are you sure it doesn't dispell on the second attack roll ?

I'm like 99% positive that against most (if not every) enemy rogue-type (Xaurip Plaguestriker was just a specific example I could immediately think of, instead of random rogue kith #125) that uses Shadowing Beyond, their first attack dispels their visual invisibility, but they remain untargetable until SB naturally wears off. I'm only 99% positive because Xaurip Plaguestrikers have slow attack speeds so it could be related to not having had a second attack roll yet, but I know I have to constantly run my clothlings away from enemy rogue-types because they have no way of interacting with them. It's so consistent that I just assume that I cannot target an enemy rogue that has just used Shadowing Beyond.

I'm actually astonished that apparently no one else has noticed. It can't possibly just be me, right?

Edited April 4, 2020 by thelee

[Elric Galad]

Word of the day : Clothlings

[Boeroer]

Hm... didn't notice.

[Boeroer]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

 I have to constantly run my clothlings away from enemy rogue-types

[Elric Galad]

I wondered whether "destroy when near death" spells work on Graze.

So I tested Touch of Death untilI I get a Graze, and yeah, it works.