Favourite improvement in deadfire? Biggest step back?

[thelee]

2 hours ago, Telas said:

Non of us will miss those 4 Bog encounters in the game. Nor the other 8 with the same rocky mountainous map.

i don't know man, everything you just said here to me justifies the reuse of that bog asset in all those places, or that rocky mountains map. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

2 hours ago, Telas said:

It does kind of. POE 1, Tyranny, Deadfire. 3 Unity games made by Obsidian in a small timeframe, all sharing the same look, all sharing the same problems, all sharing a low production value. Loss of prestige as a gaming studio. People will simple stop auto buying whatever you throw at them after a while.

oh boy it's another one of these discussions again. i guarantee you almost literally no one other than you cares about a small amount of asset reuse like that. some guy on here once complained that the female portraits in this game didn't have enough smiling, i think that's a more credible theory than yours.

 

 

[Telas]

1 hour ago, thelee said:

oh boy it's another one of these discussions again. i guarantee you almost literally no one other than you cares about a small amount of asset reuse like that. 

Oh? Ripping off Sayuka's map and distributing around the Deadfire's islands is kind of a big deal for me, yeah. If you don't care that's cool. But i think you'll be surprised by how many people do care about the details when they buy artful games like POE. Let's move on because i'm slowly tickling the fanboy instincts of some and the aggression is getting hotter by the minute.  Next time i'll be a less critical consumer even when i'm paying full price for a product(not). 

1 hour ago, thelee said:

some guy on here once complained that the female portraits in this game didn't have enough smiling, i think that's a more credible theory than yours.

I rate his complaint with 7/10 but i can improve it if you let me. You ready to hear my own version? Here goes: Seeing the same 4 portraits used on 30 different rando npc's is cheap. Very cheap. Solution: No need to give them portraits. Make some cool ones and use them only to the main/important characters(big brain thought).  

Edited November 3, 2021 by Telas

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Telas said:

But i think you'll be surprised by how many people do care about the details when they buy artful games like POE.

If you can find me one other individual on the internet complaining about reuse of landscape assets and prove it's not you, I'll eat crow.

If you can show me that this led to a steep drop off in sales from PoE1 to Deadfire, not only will I literally eat my own hat, I will petition Obsidian on your behalf to hire you as a PM of some sorts.

 

It is definitely fine to have your pet peeves and things to pay attention to and care about (I would have literally never noticed the reused bog asset in Sayuka before), but it's a pretty far cry to using that as a basis for explaining a major, objectively measurable thing (an order of magnitude drop-off in sales). Strong claims require strong evidence. Frankly, if I had seen even one other person around here or a reviewer somewhere over many years raise it, I'd be a heck of a lot more credulous. There are plenty of outsider theories, debunked or not, that have a more credible basis - pirate theme, nostalgia overload, poor marketing, and yes even "women aren't smiling enough in this game", etc. - than yours

Edited November 3, 2021 by thelee

[xzar_monty]

3 hours ago, Telas said:

Let's move on because i'm slowly tickling the fanboy instincts of some and the aggression is getting hotter by the minute. 

There has been no aggression whatsoever in this discussion. Don't be a martyr.

[Rooksx]

How many games of significant length don't reuse assets? The list must be small to non-existent. 

[Boeroer]

I compiled such a list of games:
 

 

 

 

Telas said:

Oh? Ripping off Sayuka's map and distributing around the Deadfire's islands is kind of a big deal for me, yeah. If you don't care that's cool.

Yes, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Nobody said differently. But it's another thing to assume that just because I feel a certain way a lot of people should share that sentiment.  
 

8 hours ago, Telas said:

But i think you'll be surprised by how many people do care about the details when they buy artful games like POE.

Color me interested. How many?

In this forum, on Twitter and on Discord I didn't even read once about this problem. There were many complaints, some occured frequently (loading times, performance, main story arc, nerfs etc.) and some very esoteric ("not enough women smiling" wasn't even the weirdest, we had one guy who wanted a refund because there are naked butts in the game...) - but not one complaint about reused parts of the environment. But maybe I just missed other sources where this was discussed.  For example I don't use Reddit or RPGCodex...

My personal pet peeve with reusing stuff is that the late introduction of FullVO lead to a lot of voice actors getting "reused" for different characters in the game.
Although they tried to alter their voices as best as they could I can tell all VAs who are doing multiple parts because I have good ears and excellent voice recognition. When speaking to Udine after talking to Mad Morena I just cringe, but alas... The only VA who fooled me for some time (from PoE until the Engwithan Digsite in Deadfire) was Matthew Mercer who's doing Aloth AND Edér...
 
But since I didn't read about this "problem" anywhere else I just guessed that I'm pretty alone with that. So I didn't assume that reusing voice actors for multiple chars was a huge problem in general and therefore I didn't assume that many players didn't buy Deadfire - or won't buy upcoming games - because several chars were voiced by he same person (and I can hear it and it bugs me a bit).

If reusing parts of the environment or portraits is such an offputting thing that transcends specific groups of players there should be plenty of sources for that, shouldn't it?  

8 hours ago, Telas said:

Let's move on because i'm slowly tickling the fanboy instincts of some and the aggression is getting hotter by the minute.

I went through the thread again and so far it was a respectful and rather carefully worded discussion - especially when considering it's an internet forum with anonymous users.
It's not aggression if your claims get challenged - it's just objections. The only (passive-)aggressive part so far was that^ - since it suggests that the participants in this discussion started to behave like fanboys without any objectivity or arguments - which was not the case.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Boeroer

[xzar_monty]

17 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

My personal pet peeve with reusing stuff is that the late introduction of FullVO lead to a lot of voice actors getting "reused" for different characters in the game.

Ha! Yeah, I found this a bit annoying at times, too. It didn't bother me much when I found the "other" voice actors doing multiple characters, but when it was the main ones, i.e. the NPC actors, it did bother me. It didn't feel at all cool to think "Hey, that's Eder talking!" when listening to some fairly anonymous character in the game.

[Telas]

18 hours ago, thelee said:

It is definitely fine to have your pet peeves and things to pay attention to and care about (I would have literally never noticed the reused bog asset in Sayuka before), but it's a pretty far cry to using that as a basis for explaining a major, objectively measurable thing (an order of magnitude drop-off in sales). Strong claims require strong evidence.

''Biggest step back?

1) Reused maps(especially bog and rocky mountain). It feels very cheap and Pillars as series doesn't deserve such treatment.'' 

'' POE 1, Tyranny, Deadfire. 3 Unity games made by Obsidian in a small timeframe, all sharing the same look, all sharing the same problems, all sharing a low production value. Loss of prestige as a gaming studio. People will simple stop auto buying whatever you throw at them after a while. If Pillars 3 comes out tomorrow, watch a review and see that it looks the same as Deadfire just with different story i know exactly what type of game is going to be. No matter the praise from IGN or whatever youtube reviewer, i as a player know if that game is for me or not because they sold me the same thing 3 times in a row already. POE, Tyranny, POE II Deadfire, POE III Ixamitl ''

As you can see from my original comment above, i never said it was the main reason but i just gave it as an example of cheapness. You cut corners on everything for 2 games in a row and you do the same for your third one. Selling nostalgia and good writing can only get you so far. 

Simple and elegant explanation but time for me to move on from that discussion. Daven's thread isn't about sales, market shares and pie charts.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Telas

[xzar_monty]

34 minutes ago, Telas said:

You cut corners on everything for 2 games in a row

You do recognize that there's no way your claim of cutting corners on everything for 2 games in a row can be true, don't you?

[NotDumbEnough]

On 11/3/2021 at 5:58 AM, xzar_monty said:

Ha! Yeah, I found this a bit annoying at times, too. It didn't bother me much when I found the "other" voice actors doing multiple characters, but when it was the main ones, i.e. the NPC actors, it did bother me. It didn't feel at all cool to think "Hey, that's Eder talking!" when listening to some fairly anonymous character in the game.

Also, Thaos getting reincarnated as the Palace Guard, the Rauataian debating the Kuaru at the Brass Citadel, and so many more. Though that was kind of a thing in the first game too, with shopkeepers having Thaos' voice. I think the voice actor can't do any other voice, since he also uses the exact same voice during the intro for Hitman as Soders.

 

But hey at least it's better than FO:NV where the entire game felt like it had maybe 5 male voice actors.

Edited November 4, 2021 by NotDumbEnough

[thelee]

3 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

But hey at least it's better than FO:NV where the entire game felt like it had maybe 5 male voice actors.

I'll see your FO:NV and raise you Oblivion. I can still hear those voice actors as if it were yesterday. ("have you heard of the fighter's guild" "STOP THIEF" "then pay with your blood") they must've blown their entire VO budget on just patrick stewart and sean bean

 

All the more reason to just limit VO to the main important dialogue. Save costs, don't break the fourth wall. Plus what voices you do have can be essentially all unique. (*cough* Disco Elysium *cough*)

Edited November 4, 2021 by thelee

[Obsidianware]

On 11/4/2021 at 1:18 AM, Telas said:

You cut corners on everything for 2 games in a row and you do the same for your third one. Selling nostalgia and good writing can only get you so far. 

That's the opposite of my impression playing 2; I was impressed by what a big step up it was. Way better graphics, animations, lighting, full voice acting, dynamic weather, fully explorable open world map, RTwP and turn based modes.

[Boeroer]

Lots of corners not cut.

[Telas]

12 hours ago, Obsidianware said:

That's the opposite of my impression playing 2; I was impressed by what a big step up it was. Way better graphics, animations, lighting, full voice acting, dynamic weather, fully explorable open world map, RTwP and turn based modes.

Playing through Pillars 1 right now(to make a proper save import for Pillars 2) and the game is just better in almost every aspect other than graphics. Especially with some of the extra difficulty options enable. 

Darker tone, Pantheon representation, longer dungeons, late medieval setting, resource management, companions, no reused assets, etc. Ugly 3D models for sure, but way better overall. Best iteration of Baldur's Gate gameplay loop i've seen in a modern cRPG. The fact that i don't see the same 3 portraits to every minor character, or the same forest map in every other islet makes it even better.  

Pretty graphics is not why i play cRPG's so personally i can do without that ''improvement''. Give me simpler graphics with stable FPS any day.

Full voice acting, again i find it distracting especially when it is low quality. Some instances are so bad that it brings me a visual image of the actor rehearsing lines with notepad on hand and all. Rathun Brenthis, Sugaan, etc.  

13 hours ago, Obsidianware said:

 RTwP and turn based modes.

Yeap, we can at least agree on that one. 

 

[xzar_monty]

11 hours ago, Telas said:

Playing through Pillars 1 right now(to make a proper save import for Pillars 2) and the game is just better in almost every aspect other than graphics.

That's an opinion, and there's nothing wrong with it. But almost every aspect, really?

Does it not bother you that in-combat pathfinding in PoE is most likely to be the hardest opponent you will face in the entire game? Does it not bother you that as soon as the number of combatants crosses a certain critical threshold, it becomes well-nigh impossible to figure out what's going on? Does it not bother you that many outdoor maps are absolutely littered with trash mob battles that are nothing but a waste of time because you get no XP and no meaningful loot?

If not, again, that's fine, it's an opinion and a preference.

[Boeroer]

19 hours ago, Telas said:

Darker tone, Pantheon representation, longer dungeons, late medieval setting, resource management, companions

Those are all matters of taste and not objective criteria of quality.

I also like the darker mood better and I also am a fan of per-rest casting and 6 party members - but claiming that PoE is the better game than Deadfire just based on those things is wrong. It's just the game I like a bit better because of those things.

From game mechanics/RPG rules point of view, PoE is bad in comparison. Nearly all systems of PoE are objectively worse than Deadfire's because their workings are inconsistent, unpredictable and obscure while communicated poorly. 

It also has some technical issues that were improved on in Deadfire (loading times for example, no accumulating summons in memory, capes-physics for all platforms etc.). 

19 hours ago, Telas said:

no reused assets

That is objectively wrong.

Besides that: PoE has a lot less maps (and portraits and general content).
 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Boeroer

[thelee]

i will certainly agree that the story for poe1 resonated better with me, and i liked dungeons, but some of the other stuff that poe1 did didn't do it in a way that made me prefer the game to deadfire. rest/resource management in poe1 wasn't really well-thought out, and it took playing p:k (and from what i've heard p:wotr) to realize just how much better rest can be handled.

 

19 hours ago, Telas said:

Give me simpler graphics with stable FPS any day.

oh boy, poe1 may have more stable FPS but it also has out-of-this-world load times. Builds up over time. But even with SSD/NVME there's just too much save data bloat or whatever and it's just unbearable. At least Deadfire has pretty constant load times and for me stays within the order of seconds for most transitions. Choose your own poison, I suppose, but I'll take in-combat stutters and gradual degradation to lower FPS over wasting a bunch of my time on load screens.

Edited November 11, 2021 by thelee

[NotDumbEnough]

One thing I disliked about Deadfire's narrative is that the Deadfire seems to have very little history compared to the Dyrwood. You had the Dyrwood's independence, the colonists' relations with the natives, and the Saint's War and its fallout. You could also have a political discussion with Durance, who, being the political pundit he is, correctly predicts that the Vailian Republics will eventually throw the Dyrwood under the bus. You can ask him about this before you even reach Caed Nua, which is kind of cool.

What happened before you arrived in the Deadfire? Basically nothing. There's that one ghost who wants you to cremate her in the Magranite Temple, and you learn she betrayed former rival tribesmen that she once fought in a civil war prior to the unification by the Kahanga. You have minor historical events where the watershapers sank the Rauataian fleet. But neither of these have anything to do with the plot, and basically only come up once or twice.

[Boeroer]

Hm, I think at least with BoW and FS there's quite some history of he Deadfire getting revealed.

But overall I agree that the historic events in PoE felt a lot more substancial to me.

Dang... it might be that I need to install and play PoE again. Off to 5k+ hours!  

[Telas]

11 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

That's an opinion, and there's nothing wrong with it. But almost every aspect, really?

Does it not bother you that in-combat pathfinding in PoE is most likely to be the hardest opponent you will face in the entire game? Does it not bother you that as soon as the number of combatants crosses a certain critical threshold, it becomes well-nigh impossible to figure out what's going on? 

I'm near the end of chapter 2 and a level 9 party. Never had a problem with pathfinding so far but i micro the crap out of the system and when i want to reposition a character i always shift click waypoints. Maybe things get trickier further into the game but from a couple of meaty battles down the Endless Paths i believe i'll be fine. 

11 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Does it not bother you that many outdoor maps are absolutely littered with trash mob battles that are nothing but a waste of time because you get no XP and no meaningful loot?

If not, again, that's fine, it's an opinion and a preference.

Light hearted outdoor exploration especially in maps with main roads or adjusted to Gilded Vale and Dyrford is supposed to be chill. It make sense too. Bandits, wolves, xautrips and the occasional Lurker is what i expect to find a couple kilometers away from a village. ''Trash encounters(i dislike that term)'' is the perfect moment to activate the party AI and take a sip from your coffee. We can discuss the content overleveling problem if you want but that's a different issue. I know Sawyer is with you on that one but i disagree. 

4 hours ago, thelee said:

i will certainly agree that the story for poe1 resonated better with me, and i liked dungeons, but some of the other stuff that poe1 did didn't do it in a way that made me prefer the game to deadfire. rest/resource management in poe1 wasn't really well-thought out, and it took playing p:k (and from what i've heard p:wotr) to realize just how much better rest can be handled.

Its a neat simple way to make players stop spamming their spells but i play on hard, so 2 plus the ones you can find while exploring the map are more than enough even with my restricted stash. As for Wrath of the Righteous, i'll check it in a year from now but yeah, their camping system is a little heavier. 

4 hours ago, Boeroer said:

From game mechanics/RPG rules point of view, PoE is bad in comparison. Nearly all systems of PoE are objectively worse than Deadfire's because their workings are inconsistent, unpredictable and obscure while communicated poorly. 

I can agree that POE II combat system is improved to an extend but then again, i never felt that it was in need for improvement if you know what i mean. I have to put more time to POE 1 before i'm able to see negatives but for now everything works fine. Buffing/debuffing is intuitive, and comboing spells abilities and attacks together feels tactical and fulfilling.     

2 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

One thing I disliked about Deadfire's narrative is that the Deadfire seems to have very little history compared to the Dyrwood. You had the Dyrwood's independence, the colonists' relations with the natives, and the Saint's War and its fallout. You could also have a political discussion with Durance, who, being the political pundit he is, correctly predicts that the Vailian Republics will eventually throw the Dyrwood under the bus. You can ask him about this before you even reach Caed Nua, which is kind of cool.

Exactly. The amount of thought and care in making a compelling and believable setting is simple jaw dropping in Pillars. Duc that gets elected by the surrounding seven semi independent earldoms, the geopolitical relations with nearby regions, the animancy issue, the tense political situation in Defiance Bay, the badass House Hadret full of Cypher agents... So good.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Telas

[daven]

Sorry for necro. I finally caught up with all the responses after all these years. Some good stuff here.

[Wormerine]

On 11/11/2021 at 5:48 PM, NotDumbEnough said:

One thing I disliked about Deadfire's narrative is that the Deadfire seems to have very little history compared to the Dyrwood.

It’s a double edged sword.

I think the idea is that we arrive in Deadfire at the moment when colonisation has just begun - we are meant to participate in a history, which in PoE1 we were only reading about. 

I appreciated how Humana’s culture was taught through quests, rather than requiring reading bunch of books. 

As Boreorer mentioned, DLCs dice a bit more into Deadfire’s history. Personally I didn’t find Deadfire lacking in history in texture - it seemed like fairly peaceful, slow developing area before other faction arrived, with not much historical records - similar to how we don’t know much about Glanfathans before Aedyr’s colonisation.

[kronozord]

The best and worst improvement is the full voice acting, it really helped bring this world and its inhabitants to life.

Its really good in some parts and terrible in others, lots of stiff delivers and voices reused for different characters that sound exactly the same. E.g. you can easily identify Woedicas voice in multiple chars with no effort to sound like a different person.

I also hate how they wasted a lot of money voice acting stuff that could be simple animated and then complained about it. Having someone reading a bunch of sentences to describe a visual effect were the worst ones, like when you first connect to the pillar in port maje and the narrator read 3-4 paragraphs of worthless mystical mumbo jumbo, what a waste.

 

I wouldn't say the worst but i also dislike the inspirations/afflictions naming, is strong better than energized or resolute, who knows? There are just too many keywords to remember, maybe for native English speakers this is trivial but not for me.

Edited July 28, 2023 by kronozord

[daven]

6 hours ago, kronozord said:

The best and worst improvement is the full voice acting, it really helped bring this world and its inhabitants to life.

Its really good in some parts and terrible in others, lots of stiff delivers and voices reused for different characters that sound exactly the same. E.g. you can easily identify Woedicas voice in multiple chars with no effort to sound like a different person.

I also hate how they wasted a lot of money voice acting stuff that could be simple animated and then complained about it. Having someone reading a bunch of sentences to describe a visual effect were the worst ones, like when you first connect to the pillar in port maje and the narrator read 3-4 paragraphs of worthless mystical mumbo jumbo, what a waste.

 

I wouldn't say the worst but i also dislike the inspirations/afflictions naming, is strong better than energized or resolute, who knows? There are just too many keywords to remember, maybe for native English speakers this is trivial but not for me.

Yes! Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 didn't have text descrbing every ****ing thing around you from what I recall. Just get to the point,

it's boring to have to read through this ****, it doesn't add anything.

Edited July 28, 2023 by daven

[kanisatha]

16 hours ago, daven said:

Yes! Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 didn't have text descrbing every ****ing thing around you from what I recall. Just get to the point,

it's boring to have to read through this ****, it doesn't add anything.

Well, I happen to like reading/learning about things in the world around me. So I would advocate for some form of happy medium, and would point out that for those who don't want to read/learn about stuff, they have the freedom in the game to simply avoid it all. So what the game should do is be very clear in separating things that are necessary (for quests, story, etc.) from things that are there for flavor.

Edited July 29, 2023 by kanisatha