Politics and Statesmenship: A Forum Special Report

[Guard Dog]

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9DHw9xdAys

 

 

On a more serious note Joaquin Phoenix is a great actor but he's got his work cut out for him following this guy!

[smjjames]

 

 On the other hand, Trump continuing to be an eternally scandal-ridden malus on Republicans nationwide (for the most part) probably makes a Democratic trifecta come 2020 all that much more likely...but I'm not sure if I really want that, either. 

You do not. We are all safest then they are all trying to screw each other over. Give one tribe of rats total dominion over the sewer and they will start screwing us. 

 

 

Sometimes I wonder if the President needs to be the opposite party of the one currently in power in Congress in order for oversight to happen properly. It'd certainly look strange when Congress flips parties mid-term though.

 

Then again, both parties go rabidly barking up the wrong tree (or just rabidly barking) at times. I'm mostly thinking about Benghazi and the Republicans incessant push to tear her down.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

 On the other hand, Trump continuing to be an eternally scandal-ridden malus on Republicans nationwide (for the most part) probably makes a Democratic trifecta come 2020 all that much more likely...but I'm not sure if I really want that, either. 

You do not. We are all safest then they are all trying to screw each other over. Give one tribe of rats total dominion over the sewer and they will start screwing us. 

 

 

Sometimes I wonder if the President needs to be the opposite party of the one currently in power in Congress in order for oversight to happen properly. It'd certainly look strange when Congress flips parties mid-term though.

 

Then again, both parties go rabidly barking up the wrong tree (or just rabidly barking) at times. I'm mostly thinking about Benghazi and the Republicans incessant push to tear her down.

 

Give me a House solidly in the hands of one party, a Senate solidly in the hands of the other and I won't even worry so much about who the President is. 

[Bartimaeus]

I'm sleeping a lot better with the House in the hands of the Democrats and the Senate in the hands of the Republicans. IMO that is the ideal split.

I think I like a President & House vs. Senate split more than a President & Senate vs. House split, seeing as the Senate is much more powerful than the House and has powers of confirmation that, if perpetually given total control in to one party, will seriously unbalance the judiciary as well as which party actually has effective executive control (seeing as there'd be absolutely no oversight in who's appointed to what...).

[BruceVC]

 

GD, I think even you would prefer a stable one compared to this

I would prefer predictable. What we have is actually pretty stable. There is a lot of sound and fury and plenty of light from the burning dumpster to read the Washington Post telling us all how much everything sucks. But his worst impulses are blocked by the House and the Courts or his own hubris and incompetence. I'm sleeping a lot better with the House in the hands of the Democrats and the Senate in the hands of the Republicans. IMO that is the ideal split. We do best when they all neutralize each other.

 

And i'd still rather have his judges over anything Hillary f-----g Clinton would have appointed. 

 

 

Things can always be worse GD, Bernie Sanders could win the Democratic nomination then the Democrats could win the next election due to exasperation at Trump..

 

Sanders is the " antithesis "   of Trump but would be much worse for the USA (goodbye guns and weapons, first order of the day ) and its important role it needs to play in a stable, progressive world 

Edited April 19, 2019 by BruceVC

[Gromnir]

A few fun headlines from the redacted Mueller report I've seen so far: "Barr says he ‘disagreed’ with Mueller on whether Trump obstructed justice ahead of redacted report release" ...Which is to say, Mueller believed Trump did obstruct justice, .

 

"The President's efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the President declined to carry out orders or accede to his requests." Alternative way of framing this: "The woman's efforts to have her husband killed were mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely because the hitman who the woman hired declined to carry out orders or accede to her requests."

 

"President Trump reacted negatively to the special counsel's appointment. He told advisors that it was the end of his presidency, sought to have Attorney General Jeff Sessions unrecuse from the Russia investigation and to have the Special Council removed, and engaged in efforts to curtail the Special Council's investigation and prevent the disclosure of evidence to it, including through public and private contacts with potential witnesses"

 

at some point, pundits is gonna do a side-by-side analysis o' nixon and trump's actions.  is not gonna look good for trump as his dirty deeds were more numerous and more active than were nixon's.  difference?  a tape and nixon's cronies actual carrying out extra-legal activities. 

 

and am thinking gd has all wrong.  modest fumbling, when viewed in retrospect, is kinda the norm as is relative harmless. obama's actions were hardly flawless, but Presidents are working with imperfect information, extreme pressures and many competing interests.  minor blunders is the norm and not at all bad given the stakes. our mount rushmore includes presidents who engaged in some pretty scurrilous behavior, and they were frequent ridiculed by their opponents and allies as unsuited for office.  heck, jefferson's efforts to destroy burr after the Presidential election were making trump look mature and dignified by comparison.  and while gas stations were something like 50 years in the future o' the civil war, your gas station guy's great granddaddy woulda' been able to make a similar promise regarding lincoln w/o any chance o' needing make good on the offer. 

 

is any number o' things we would call out obama regarding, but refusing to aid in putin's gaslighting efforts is not on our list o' obama fails.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[smjjames]

 

 

GD, I think even you would prefer a stable one compared to this

I would prefer predictable. What we have is actually pretty stable. There is a lot of sound and fury and plenty of light from the burning dumpster to read the Washington Post telling us all how much everything sucks. But his worst impulses are blocked by the House and the Courts or his own hubris and incompetence. I'm sleeping a lot better with the House in the hands of the Democrats and the Senate in the hands of the Republicans. IMO that is the ideal split. We do best when they all neutralize each other.

 

And i'd still rather have his judges over anything Hillary f-----g Clinton would have appointed. 

 

 

Things can always be worse GD, Bernie Sanders could win the Democratic nomination then the Democrats could win the next election due to exasperation at Trump..

 

Sanders is the " antithesis "   of Trump but would be much worse for the USA (goodbye guns and weapons, first order of the day ) and its important role it needs to play in a stable, progressive world 

 

 

 

Come on, don't perpetuate the gun grab myth, even though I know you're just messing with GD here. Also, the world has gotten a bit less progressive due to the rise of illiberal democracy and the backlash from the right. And it's gotten a bit less stable in part due to that and in part due to Trumps abdication, and also because things are returning to the multi-polar Great Powers system that was the norm during the European colonial period and likely further back.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

GD, I think even you would prefer a stable one compared to this

I would prefer predictable. What we have is actually pretty stable. There is a lot of sound and fury and plenty of light from the burning dumpster to read the Washington Post telling us all how much everything sucks. But his worst impulses are blocked by the House and the Courts or his own hubris and incompetence. I'm sleeping a lot better with the House in the hands of the Democrats and the Senate in the hands of the Republicans. IMO that is the ideal split. We do best when they all neutralize each other.

 

And i'd still rather have his judges over anything Hillary f-----g Clinton would have appointed. 

 

 

Things can always be worse GD, Bernie Sanders could win the Democratic nomination then the Democrats could win the next election due to exasperation at Trump..

 

Sanders is the " antithesis "   of Trump but would be much worse for the USA (goodbye guns and weapons, first order of the day ) and its important role it needs to play in a stable, progressive world 

 

 

 

Come on, don't perpetuate the gun grab myth, even though I know you're just messing with GD here. Also, the world has gotten a bit less progressive due to the rise of illiberal democracy and the backlash from the right. And it's gotten a bit less stable in part due to that and in part due to Trumps abdication, and also because things are returning to the multi-polar Great Powers system that was the norm during the European colonial period and likely further back.

 

 You raise good points, yes I was joking about the guns but he has made unhelpful views around gun control which were more divisive than constructive, here is a good summary of some of the  criticisms I have towards him. I believe he means well but just the 2.5$ yearly  trillion cost of his "medicare for all " and his constant attacks on the banks are reasons I would never vote or support  him. But its not personal, its purely economic and based on realistic implementation of his polices 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/us/politics/bernie-sanders-on-the-issues.html

[Elerond]

"2.5$ yearly  trillion cost of his "medicare for all " " 

 

That is somewhat scaremongering 

 

1. That estimates is based on current health insurance cost and government lead single payer insurance system will by its size, nature and dominance force prices down.

 

2. Most of the health care cost come from paying doctors, nurses and so on for their work and those people pay big sunk of that money back in their taxes (first by giving part of their salary and then constantly giving little more with most things that they buy, rent etc.). Also from macro economic standpoint health care is mostly inbred, meaning that money never leaves the country, but just circles inside of country's economic flow.

 

3. Government lead health care can invest in preventive care, which would lessen amount of emergency care, expensive medical procedures, unnecessary testing etc.  

 

Introduction medicare for all, or some other single payer system is not really question is it affordable, but is government willing to cut profits of health and medical care industries by taking control over the wallet.

[Volourn]

"Come on, don't perpetuate the gun grab myth,"

 

Myth? If you think that isn't the end game you are delusional.

[Guard Dog]

I haven't paid Bernie much attention but I don't remember him being particularly vocal about gun control. I would never vote for him anyway because hell will freeze into a solid block before I ever vote for any Democrat. 

[Bartimaeus]

Yes, I mentioned that I was surprised a couple of pages back ago when he did his town hall with Fox that they didn't try to gotcha him about guns, considering that he has not been historically nearly as "progressive" about guns as his peers, and it was a good chance to make him appear bad to both conservatives and progressives - one of the few issues that he'll probably be pushed further left on than he'd perhaps like if he wins the nomination. Also, on the most technical of technicalities, Sanders is still technically an independent...

[BruceVC]

Im glad the Mueller report is out now, as most of you may be aware I watch lots of CNN and other international coverage of USA politics but Im tired of the constant coverage of everything Trump says or does. Its becomes almost  an obsession at times, I obviously am not suggesting the likes of CNN shouldnt cover Trump but there other topics to discuss and analyze. It cant always be about Trump

[Guard Dog]

Trump Derangement Syndrome is a thing. But most "mainstream media" however you define that, could easily just print "Four legs good, two legs bad" over and over and still convey just as much information. The only difference being who has four legs and who has two. 

 

Anyway after reading some of the Muller report and many summaries of parts I've come to the conclusion that although there may have been no crime there WAS bad behavior. Shocking right? Imagine the surprise of finding out the people you always thought were pieces of s-t actually are. 

 

Anyway supposedly Barr is going to "look into" the Clinton / Fusion GPS thing and the FBI attempt to scuttle Trump's campaign. Nothing will come of that. Not that there isn't something there. There probably is. Nothing ever does come of these things. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Guard Dog

[Hurlshort]

I haven't paid Bernie much attention but I don't remember him being particularly vocal about gun control. I would never vote for him anyway because hell will freeze into a solid block before I ever vote for any Democrat. 

 

I wouldn't really call Bernie a Democrat anymore than I'd call Ron Paul a Republican. 

[Guard Dog]

 

I haven't paid Bernie much attention but I don't remember him being particularly vocal about gun control. I would never vote for him anyway because hell will freeze into a solid block before I ever vote for any Democrat. 

 

I wouldn't really call Bernie a Democrat anymore than I'd call Ron Paul a Republican. 

 

  No... just LOL no. Socially they have some similarities. Economically, not even in the same universe. Remember Bernie is they guy who though people waiting in bread lines is a good thing. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Guard Dog

[Hurlshort]

I'm not saying they are similar, I'm saying they have little in common with their party's leadership.

[Gromnir]

 

 

Anyway after reading some of the Muller report and many summaries of parts I've come to the conclusion that although there may have been no crime there WAS bad behavior. Shocking right? Imagine the surprise of finding out the people you always thought were pieces of s-t actually are. 

 

 

this kinda conclusion were exact what the russians were hoping for when they started their interference.  isn't any good evidence that substantial votes were shifted by russian efforts, but they did hack and lie and do all kinda other bad stuff.  'course trump did all kinda bad stuff, and clinton did bad stuff and the fbi and obama did bad stuff...

 

deflection and false equivalency.  

 

now admitted, gd is a bad example o' russian success in undermining the perception o' legitimacy o' elections or instilling the presumption o' widespread government corruption.  russians were preaching to the choir on those issues with gd.  regardless, am disappointed by how successful the russians were... beyond their wildest dreams we imagine.

 

as to the report, have admitted only absorbed a bit as is not our first priority at the moment.  two most significant quick Gromnir observations:

 

that report lamented that lies by trump campaign actors "materially" limited the investigation into russian collusion.  

 

as already noted, we couldn't help but compare nixon to trump, and found trump misdeeds arguable more skeevy.

 

also, as to bernie...

 

we like bernie priorities, but we would have difficulty voting for him.  free education and healthcare ain't free; somebody has to pay for such stuff. bernie is good for a 2020 election 'cause he is forcing other folks to address income inequality problems and education issues and a whole truckload o' important problems which need attention.  were bernie and mccain who, a few years past, led efforts to get attention for veteran problems.  in general, we like bernie, but am thinking when he looks at fed government he sees

 

 

bernie's tax the rich scheme to pay for all his proposed programs is only slight more practical than aoc's ****tail napkin deep plans.  US debt is an enormous problem and solution to the problem ain't to throw money at it. 

 

bernie is good for 2020 'cause he is talking 'bout important stuff, but have said before what the dems need is a centrist candidate who is gonna be able to appeal to independents and to republicans dissatisfied with trump.  as much as independents and increasing numbers o' republican voters express lack o' confidence in trump (particularly educated women, regardless o' ethnicity) am not seeing such voters switch their 2016 vote from trump to sanders.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Maedhros]

Thought this was pretty funny:

 

"Mueller noted that Trump “challenged” his lawyer for taking notes of their conversation. “Why do you take notes?” he asked McGahn, according to the report. “Lawyers don’t take notes. I never had a lawyer who took notes.” McGahn said he kept notes because he is a “real lawyer” and to establish a record. Trump replied, “I’ve had a lot of great lawyers, like Roy Cohn. He did not take notes.’’ Cohn, who was chief counsel to Sen. Joseph McCarthy (R-Wis.) during McCarthy’s communist-hunting hearings in the 1950s, was disbarred by a New York court in 1986 because of “dishonesty, fraud, deceit and misrepresentation."

 

[Malcador]

I thought Barr came across very well. I'd like to think this whole thing will be put behind us now, but I'm sure everyone will find a way to spin it to fit their own agenda.

He's coming off as WH counsel not the AG.

[Guard Dog]

I'm not saying they are similar, I'm saying they have little in common with their party's leadership.

Yeah I'll buy that.

[Boeroer]

In other news Pete Buttigieg is floating the idea of "mandatory" public service for everyone. Either in the military or some other yet-to-be-created-but-will-cost-a-country-with-out-of-control-spending-a-f-----g-lot organization. Boy the Democrats are really fond of the word "mandatory" aren't they? But it's nice to see them circling back around to their roots. The party of secession and slavery is proposing slavery in 2020. 

We had mandatory service in Germany from end of WWII until a few years ago. Like many other countries on earth that I wouldn't call slavers.

 

The idea (at least in Germany) was that you'll have a sound cross section of your actual society in the military (or an alternative service like fire service, Federal Agency for Technical Relief, community service - if you don't want to fire weapons and stuff). Also lifts the average IQ in the military quite a bit.

 

I think that's a very reasonable point. I didn't go to the military but did community service in a home for wayward children (13 months). And while it was a hard time I also learned a lot. I met people I would not have met if I would have just went from school to university. My best friend did community service in a home for trisomy 21 people. At new years eve we would meet with them and celebrate - and this was honestly one of the nicest parties I ever attended.

 

Meanwhile very decent former schoolfellows went to the military and left their footprint there.

 

Then Germany switched to voluntary service. Guess what happened? And guess if it was a good thing for the military, the civil sector (think about hospitals, elder care...) and the society as a whole.   

Edited April 19, 2019 by Boeroer

[Gfted1]

We should offer a program where service gaurentees citizenship.

[BruceVC]

We should offer a program where service gaurentees citizenship.

 

This is a very good idea but maybe make it military service?

[majestic]

 

We should offer a program where service gaurentees citizenship.

 

This is a very good idea but maybe make it military service?

 

 

Dude, seriously?