Politics and Statesmenship: A Forum Special Report

[Gfted1]

@BVC: I would say that most people are born good, and unfortunately thats where it stops. From that point forward we are taught to be religous morons, or bigots, or "phobic", by the particular environment and people we are raised in. Monkey see, monkey do.

[smjjames]

 

• US REP Seth Moulton has entered the Democratic field bringing the total to 19: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/seth-moulton-massachusetts-congressman-and-iraq-war-vet-jumps-into-2020-presidential-race. I say we put all of them in a room with the nomination tied at the top of a 8' rope. Whomever can climb up there an get it get's nominated!
• Mexican soldiers have detained and disarmed two US Soldiers on the US side of the border. Technically an act of war. Of course it was a mistake on Mexico's part. But hey, it's not like there is a huge river marking the border or something. Oh... wait... https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/mexican-troops-drew-weapons-on-american-soldiers-on-u-s-side-of-the-border
• Apparently even entering Thailand's waters illegally is punishable by death: https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/19/asia/thai-sea-home-us-bitcoin-trader-scli-intl/index.html  Waiting for the Democrats to protest this draconian immigration policy... still waiting...
• I think this is awesome: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-second-amendment-sanctuary-county-movement-illinois-20190416-story.html. Sanctuary cities for illegals, guns, pot, whatever, I'm in favor of all of it. The goddamned governments in this f-----g country are out of control. Defiance should be applauded. 

 

 

Actually, I think the number might be 20 now, but with Biden supposedly entering soon, it's practically already hit the cap of 20 that was set for the debates by your counting. IMO, they should spread it out further over three days rather than cap it. Ridiculous, I know, but they're going to have to figure out some fair(er) way to do things should massive fields like this become the norm.

 

Re the soldiers at the border: I read that they gave up the weapons voluntarily to defuse the situation, which would certainly have been preferrable to the situation getting out of hand.

[Gromnir]

 

 

• Mexican soldiers have detained and disarmed two US Soldiers on the US side of the border. Technically an act of war. Of course it was a mistake on Mexico's part. But hey, it's not like there is a huge river marking the border or something. Oh... wait... https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/mexican-troops-drew-weapons-on-american-soldiers-on-u-s-side-of-the-border

 

reminds us... huge river landmark didn't help US Congressman identify the border's location.

 

as to the second amendment sanctuary bit, am actual ok with that, but gd ain't seeing the flip side we s'pose.  one o' the reasons why shows like deadwood and wanted: dead or alive is pure fantasy is 'cause all during the 1800s, local firearm ordinances were de rigueur.  we would be perfect okie dokie if 2nd amendment weren't deemed fully incorporated and were left up to local and state governments. legal issues aside, there were a kinda sanity and reasonableness in letting local folks decide how best to regulate the 'mount o' firearm violence they were willing to accept. have big government step in and tread on the values and choices o' people in la salle, illinois?  need a pretty compelling reason for such and am not certain we feel so strong 'bout firearms.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[smjjames]

Isn't Deadwood based on that one mining town that actually and practically was lawless for all intents and purposes, also highly corrupt? Though Deadwood is the actual name of one town.

[Volourn]

Those evil solders should be destroyed.  This is why I'm not a soldier. If some punks from another country invaded my country and tried to tell me what to do,  some of us would be dead. NEVER SURRENDER TO INVADERS.

 

Can you imagine the reaction by the elft if US soldiers went into Mexico terrirotry and attacked Mexican soldiers like this? LMAO

Edited April 22, 2019 by Volourn

[Amentep]

 

 

Isn't Deadwood based on that one mining town that actually and practically was lawless for all intents and purposes, also highly corrupt? Though Deadwood is the actual name of one town.

 

According to Richard Shenkman's LEGENDS,LIES, AND CHERISHED MYTHS OF AMERICAN HISTORY during the deadliest year in Deadwood's history, only four people were killed. 

 

In most of the violent towns of the old west, they average about 3 homicides a year with 1 homicide in every 3 years (on average) being from a six shooter.

[Malcador]

At the risk of offending someone - with really no offense intended, just some good ol' fun - I think Buttigieg is probably the best name for a gay guy ever.

I am also sure his pronunciation is different, sort of a Hyacinth Bucket deal.

[bringingyouthefuture]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-backers-upset-with-mayor-pete-buttigieg-over-trump-comparison

 

It's fun to watch right-leaning news outlets try to sow discord and chaos.  I mean - this way you don't have to imagine what the right is saying it just is out there for everyone to see.

[Volourn]

"many of whom are people of color.”

 

That's cute.  minorities also vote/support Trump too. The point? L0L

[smjjames]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-backers-upset-with-mayor-pete-buttigieg-over-trump-comparison

 

It's fun to watch right-leaning news outlets try to sow discord and chaos.  I mean - this way you don't have to imagine what the right is saying it just is out there for everyone to see.

 

Fox news isn't doing the discord and chaos in that particular case, just highlighting a fault line that already exists between the more populist wing vs the rest, and Buttigeigs observation about the conditions that led to the rise in populist candidates still existing is correct anyway.

[ktchong]

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by ktchong

[injurai]

I've actually been watching a lot of the SOC 119 classes lately. So far it has been incredible. It's charting a sane and noble course through progressivism, tackling serious issues without getting sidetracked by singing the praises to a single interest groups politics. I've not only learned a lot, but I also see it bringing up a lot points I see totally dismissed in mainline progressivism.

 

I think everyone should work through the series. I've just been doing the most recent Spring 2019 offering.

[Blarghagh]

For those interested, the Mueller report has a free audiobook version on Audible.

 

#NotSponsored

[Gromnir]

For those interested, the Mueller report has a free audiobook version on Audible.

 

#NotSponsored

 

mark hamill reading trump tweets as the joker is funny.  am suspecting kevin conroy reading sections o' the mueller report as batman would be fun too.

 

...

 

though am admitting, the justice league unlimited's question would be unique amusing if a bit  abstruse for the average listener.

 

 

shady and the star trek fans likely knows jeffery combs from all the bit parts he did over the years on st shows... and amentep is more likely to recall re-animator?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Blarghagh]

He was also the best part of The Frighteners.

[Pidesco]

@BVC: I would say that most people are born good, and unfortunately thats where it stops. From that point forward we are taught to be religous morons, or bigots, or "phobic", by the particular environment and people we are raised in. Monkey see, monkey do.

 

Have you met children?

[Lexx]

So they say the Sri Lanka bombs were revenge for the Christchurch attack. Had to google the location of Sri Lanka, to remind me of how far away that one is from New Zealand. Turns out it is very far away. I lol'd a bit about this stupidity.

[Guard Dog]

 

as to the second amendment sanctuary bit, am actual ok with that, but gd ain't seeing the flip side we s'pose.  one o' the reasons why shows like deadwood and wanted: dead or alive is pure fantasy is 'cause all during the 1800s, local firearm ordinances were de rigueur.  we would be perfect okie dokie if 2nd amendment weren't deemed fully incorporated and were left up to local and state governments. legal issues aside, there were a kinda sanity and reasonableness in letting local folks decide how best to regulate the 'mount o' firearm violence they were willing to accept. have big government step in and tread on the values and choices o' people in la salle, illinois?  need a pretty compelling reason for such and am not certain we feel so strong 'bout firearms.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You are not making an accurate comparison. The gun laws in no carry townships of the "old west" and pretty much everywhere else are not dissimilar to what we have today. It is pretty settled the that the right to "bear" arms does not extend to carrying them around openly or concealed. At least so far as the 2nd Amend is concerned. That leaves it up to each state to figure out who can carry what and why so long as there is no prohibition of owning one altogether (thank you Heller & MacDonald) . I'm cool with that. The 10th Amendment is tied with 23 others as my favorites (the 3rd is a solution to a problem we don't have anymore and the 17th & 18th were both mistakes IMO). In my state you need a permit to carry concealed. Same in 44 of the others. Who gets a permit and why is up to the people of that state. In Tombstone you had to "check yer iron" when you got into town but you didn't have to worry about the Earps kicking down your door to take them away from you for no reason at all when you were home. Or not giving them back to you when you leave. THAT is what has gotten the ball rolling in the "2nd Amendment Sanctuary City" movement in Colorado. A new state law empowering the police to do exactly that that a third of the state's Sheriffs have stated they will not follow. And good for them I'd say. They would get my vote. 

 

I'm a little surprised you would rather have seen McDonald vs Chicago go the other way. If i understand correctly (damn it Jim I'm an engineer not a lawyer) that was the decision that confirmed the 2nd Amend was incorporated. You tread on dangerous ground when you start giving legislatures the power to determine what rights are rights and how they may be enjoyed and by whom. Nearly every act of a legislative body is a limitation on liberty rather than an enhancement of it.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Guard Dog

[bringingyouthefuture]

 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-backers-upset-with-mayor-pete-buttigieg-over-trump-comparison

 

It's fun to watch right-leaning news outlets try to sow discord and chaos.  I mean - this way you don't have to imagine what the right is saying it just is out there for everyone to see.

 

Fox news isn't doing the discord and chaos in that particular case, just highlighting a fault line that already exists between the more populist wing vs the rest, and Buttigeigs observation about the conditions that led to the rise in populist candidates still existing is correct anyway.

 

 

But the lead language is so telling - it's like a middle finger to both sides of the argument - hence my comment. 

[Gromnir]

 

 

as to the second amendment sanctuary bit, am actual ok with that, but gd ain't seeing the flip side we s'pose.  one o' the reasons why shows like deadwood and wanted: dead or alive is pure fantasy is 'cause all during the 1800s, local firearm ordinances were de rigueur.  we would be perfect okie dokie if 2nd amendment weren't deemed fully incorporated and were left up to local and state governments. legal issues aside, there were a kinda sanity and reasonableness in letting local folks decide how best to regulate the 'mount o' firearm violence they were willing to accept. have big government step in and tread on the values and choices o' people in la salle, illinois?  need a pretty compelling reason for such and am not certain we feel so strong 'bout firearms.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

You are not making an accurate comparison. The gun laws in no carry townships of the "old west" and pretty much everywhere else are not dissimilar to what we have today. It is pretty settled the that the right to "bear" arms does not extend to carrying them around openly or concealed. At least so far as the 2nd Amend is concerned. That leaves it up to each state to figure out who can carry what and why so long as there is no prohibition of owning one altogether (thank you Heller & MacDonald) . I'm cool with that. The 10th Amendment is tied with 23 others as my favorites (the 3rd is a solution to a problem we don't have anymore and the 17th & 18th were both mistakes IMO). In my state you need a permit to carry concealed. Same in 44 of the others. Who gets a permit and why is up to the people of that state. In Tombstone you had to "check yer iron" when you got into town but you didn't have to worry about the Earps kicking down your door to take them away from you for no reason at all when you were home. Or not giving them back to you when you leave. THAT is what has gotten the ball rolling in the "2nd Amendment Sanctuary City" movement in Colorado. A new state law empowering the police to do exactly that that a third of the state's Sheriffs have stated they will not follow. And good for them I'd say. They would get my vote. 

 

I'm a little surprised you would rather have seen McDonald vs Chicago go the other way. If i understand correctly (damn it Jim I'm an engineer not a lawyer) that was the decision that confirmed the 2nd Amend was incorporated. You tread on dangerous ground when you start giving legislatures the power to determine what rights are rights and how they may be enjoyed and by whom. Nearly every act of a legislative body is a limitation on liberty rather than an enhancement of it.

 

 

misapprehension

 

there were no permit process in tombstone or deadwood, though admitted there were a common sense approach to such stuff.  many o' those towns had flat prohibitions on firearm possession within city limits. you would be physically relieved o' your firearms when entering town, and if sheriff had reasonable suspicion to believe you possessed a firearm in town, even in your residence, they could kick in your door and take possession o' your weapon and arrest you if they felt warranted to do so.  typical, you would need pick up your firearm from sheriff when leaving town. the local gun ordinances were frequent blanket prohibitions on possession w/i a specific geographical area which could encompass an entire town +.  you are purposefully trying to reimagine such laws so they do not violate your modern notions o' liberty.

 

"In so ruling, the Court brought to the fore and attached legal import to the

history of gun laws. This development, when added to the desire to know our own

history better, underscores the value of the study of gun laws in America. In

recent years, new and important research and writing has chipped away at old 

myths to present a more accurate and pertinent sense of our gun past.

Researchers and authors including Saul Cornell, Alexander DeConde, Craig

Whitney, and Adam Winkler have all published important work making clear

that gun laws are by no means a contemporary phenomenon.

 Yet even now, far too few understand or appreciate the fact that though gun possession is as old as

America, so too are gun laws. But there’s more: gun laws were not only

ubiquitous, numbering in the thousands, but also spanned every conceivable

category of regulation, from gun acquisition, sale, possession, transport, and use,

including deprivation of use through outright confiscation, to hunting and

recreational regulations, to registration and express gun bans. For example, the

contemporary raging dispute over the regulation of some semi-automatic

weapons that began in late 1980s was actually presaged seven decades earlier,

when at least seven states banned such weapons entirely—a fact that seems to

have been unknown to modern analysts until now. A vast newly compiled dataset

of historical gun laws reveals that the first gun grabbers (as contemporary gun

rights advocates like to label gun control proponents) were not Chablis-drinking

liberals of the 1960s, but rum-guzzling pioneers dating to the 1600s."-- robert j spitzer

 

we keep saying, but folks don't get it: democracy is the enemy of liberty.  gd reflexive thinks it is wonderful when locals vote to protect those liberty values he cherishes, but the whims o' people is mercurial, and tomorrow democracy is as likely to have those locals voting to restrict and restrain liberties.  can't have it both ways gd.  if you wanna cheer locals for standing up to the fed to protect your liberty rights, you are gonna be smacked with the ruler of remembrance when those locals pass ordinances which offend.

 

the earliest municipal gun ordinances did not run afoul o' the 2nd amendment for most simple of reasons: gunpowder restrictions.  *chuckle* almost every city complete prohibited the possession o' gunpowder within town limits.  this effective prevented use o' such weapons w/i the city w/o triggering a 2nd amendment issue.  when mark anthony frassetto completed his database on american gun laws, he noted how he avoided collection o' gunpowder laws as there were too many such.  nevertheless, in the mid/late 1800s when ammunition changes became dramatic, local ordinances changed to match technology.

 

as to our opinion o' the Court, am thinking the Justices have read clear meaning o' the text wrong as often as not.  am confused by the Court's gymnastics concerning what they deem a weapon which would be protected by 2nd amendment.  the Justices took a strange historical approach in mcdonald and heller, strange 'cause history actual conspired 'gainst 'em. admitted, the ubiquitous nature o' local gun ordinances were not fully understood until after mark anthony frassetto completed his database in 2013, but such is why use o' history is such a dangerous approach to Constitutional analysis and why Scalia general advocated text-based analysis over original intent silliness... is why heller is so disappointing for us. 

 

history, which Scalia relied 'pon so heavily, suggests the second amendment has been viewed different in cities as 'posed to rural areas and that the Court has been ok with such a binary view o' the 2nd Amendment for over 200 years... or until 2008. might be time to consider a legal recognition o' what has been true for almost all US history since before 1787: a presumption o' the validity o' local firearm ordinances. in rural areas, such as where gd lives, is likely such local ordinances will protect his gun ownership rights, but that won't always be the case.  can't have it both ways gd.  wanna advocate for greater support o' state and local sovereignty, then gotta be prepared for the consequences o' such a choice.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I was wondering if ktchong's videos, the muller audiobook, and Gromnir's legal lecture combined to give me a stroke but instead it just looks like they changed the forum.

Anyways that militia that was detaining immigrants on the border had their leader arrested, apparently the feds knew he had some illegal weapons for about a year and a half but decided to do something only after he got noticed for playing cowboy.

[smjjames]

Heh KaineParker. I bet it'll be safe to go beyond 30 pages now. :)

In other news, Biden jumps in for reals.

[injurai]

Donald "Grab 'em by the ****" Trump vs. Joe "Publicly sniff her hair on the campaign trail" Biden.

[Gfted1]

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

image

am gonna do the seeming impossible and combine a recognition o' gifted's complete random moment and bring the thread back on-topic with a surprising timely use o' the way-back machine.

 

 

 

not sure what happened with our first attempt at this... let's see what happens with a second cut at the same wood.

HA! Good fun!