Opinion on the game from an old BG2 fan

[bugarup]

"Passionate" or "aggressive" -- unlike, say, "lawful" and "good", are not loaded, judgmental words and -- at least in me -- provoke different level of reaction. Like, if I do something I think is mellow and see that the game slapped the "passionate" label on that action, I just shrug and dismiss it as the writer and me having different ideas about passion, which is OK because emotions are highly personalized. But if I murder a bunch of civilians because their goddess is evulz, oh noez!!! -- then how the f†ck I am good? 

 

"Maya eagerly helps you clean Ruatai headquarters after refusing their quest and never notices it even happened" actually stands out  because Deadfire's companions were usually vocal, opinionated and not shy to offer their input about current situation, while in P:K it was like travelling with a group of soulless mannequins who never reacted to anything save for an occasional inconsequential bark. 

 

Also, I don't remember "weird dwarf" sequence being that overloaded with needless adjectives; as for "rictus grin" -- "weird words" <> "purple prose". 

[algroth]

Also, I don't remember "weird dwarf" sequence being that overloaded with needless adjectives; as for "rictus grin" -- "weird words" <> "purple prose". 

 

Moreover, the appearance of that particular dwarf was meant to be rather singular and eerie, and was foreshadowing who we were about to meet. I thought it was very effective myself.

[Daidre]

Well, Benevolent and Cruel is really loaded judgmental words for my tastes.    

[Daidre]

I am chronic restarter and for me something like this is really hard to foget:

 

 

If this is not a purple prose at its worst  finest, I do not know what is. Especially this part:

 

 

Something resembling an oddly-carved, merry gourd, replete with unhealthy bumps and discolored splotches.

 

I mean, it is first dialog in the game and his portrait is right here!

Edited February 20, 2019 by Daidre

[algroth]

I am chronic restarter and for me something like this is really hard to foget:

 

 

If this is not a purple prose at its worst  finest, I do not know what is. Especially this part:

 

 

Something resembling an oddly-carved, merry gourd, replete with unhealthy bumps and discolored splotches.

 

I mean, it is first dialog in the game and his portrait is right here!

 

I don't see an issue with that sentence or description. And people really ought to stop using the term "purple prose", it's becoming the new "plot hole".

[Daidre]

Well, that explains a lot about all writing awards nominations Deadfire got. Excellent professional reviews too.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Daidre

[xzar_monty]

The sentence and description are all right as such, but the choice of words is somewhat Lovecraftian. It's not downright bad, but definitely in the neighborhood. I mean, there are only so many pavoninely-dressed sutlers wearing insalubriously-colored lambrequins you can squeeze into a sentence before a reasonable person goes ho-hum and checks out.

Edited February 20, 2019 by xzar_monty

[xzar_monty]

Well, that explains a lot about all writing awards nominations Deadfire got. Excellent professional reviews too.

 

Now, correct me if I'm wrong (and I'll be very happy to be proven wrong), but my sense is that well-written computer game reviews no longer exist.

[algroth]

The sentence and description are all right as such, but the choice of words is somewhat Lovecraftian.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

I'd say it's all about context. If you were to describe any random person you met in this same fashion, then yes, it'd all be a bit too much. But this is a meeting with an avatar of the god of death in some manner of afterlife, all about a character whose appearance is utterly uncanny, and thus it makes sense to be described to this level of detail or using this particular approach and vocabulary. Per Lovecraftian terms this is a kind of encounter that would fall strictly in the realm of the supernatural, even by the setting's own standards, and thus the means of describing it should evoke such sensation. Obviously whether it does or not is up to each player, to me it does and in fact it's more of what I'd like to have seen in the other meetings we had with the gods.

Edited February 20, 2019 by algroth

[Daidre]

 

Well, that explains a lot about all writing awards nominations Deadfire got. Excellent professional reviews too.

 

Now, correct me if I'm wrong (and I'll be very happy to be proven wrong), but my sense is that well-written computer game reviews no longer exist.

 

 

Closest example that comes to mind is KOTOR 2. Most dialogs there have a huge advantage of being written by the same, very talented, person. Thanks to it KOTOR has very consistent quality and, I dont know, style accross all game. No oververbose descriptions (except Kreya), no modern slang too.

 

I like P:K writing a lot, but when you compare english and russian versions, parts that was originally-russian is quite easy to notice. This mix of translation and original creates huge disparity in text quality. 

 

But Numenera and Deadfire do not have same excuse and looks like prime examples of how thesaurus in the hands of game writer could ruin even best concepts/quests.

 

Edit: Oh, you were talking about reviews, not games. For me they are either useless or funny, but never informative. Usually read them about games I do not intend to play (like Anthem).

Edited February 20, 2019 by Daidre

[bugarup]

In the same time when I tried to RP cleric of Magran who actually respects gods and support them as ideas to guide societies I was constantly running into situations when all my responses was 3 different flavor of snark and generally not-respectful.

Trying to RP Pale Elf with nonexistent sense of humor was even worse. 

 

I love to explore themes and topics, it annoy me when all opinions I hear so modern american from so colorful cast of characters with different backgrounds.

 

And here I am, v. appreciative to POE for allowing me to give gods a piece of my mind and fuming at my inability to even side-eye those vapid twits of goddesses that foisted their will upon my Charname in P:K. Plus, not only you cannot play someone with a sense of humour (unless it's puns) in P:K at all, you cannot even play someone with a vocabulary larger than 50 words. So until some genius mashes two games together, the only thing we can do is enjoy the aspect of each game that we like rather than are annoyed at.  (Or maybe I should try the game in Russian since you say the fault is in translation and I'm fluent anyway)

 

As for that modern american thing (which isn't really exclusive to Americans), I'm afraid that the game with characters who go, like, "To the kitchen with you, females!" or "We elves are the master race, bow before us, you lowly inferior filth!" might draw wrong kind of attention and then it can be pain in the ass to explain you were just "exploring themes and topics".

 

 

(And yet, Obz sneaked Durance in )

 

 

[xzar_monty]

 

The sentence and description are all right as such, but the choice of words is somewhat Lovecraftian.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

Not necessarily, although it has to be said that I haven't been able to get into Lovecraft. As for the rest of your argument, it's quite well-phrased and I tend to agree.

 

As I said, I don't find this particular example bad, but it is approaching dangerous territory.

 

I suppose we'd all agree that the fantastical nature of games like these rather calls for some evocative verbosity. I mean, an Ernesty "I went to the Deadfire. The Deadfire was there" wouldn't really create a proper atmosphere.

[Daidre]

Russian version is not better per se, it just bad in different places  .

 

 

I'm afraid that the game with characters who go, like, "To the kitchen with you, females!"

 

Of course, I am biased, but I love how two most prominent Strong Female Characters in P:K both stupid as bricks. And i am too russian to believe that it is unintentional. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Daidre

[Verde]

 

It's easy to spot amateurish writing - 1) tell don't show 2) adjectives and adverbs, oh my!

 

Lmao at 'prettily'. Let the reader come to that conclusion, don't cram it down his/her throat (forcefully - see?).

To be fair, Xoti is not innocent of such descriptors either. I recall the game being pretty insistent on her rosy cheeks when I first met her in my playthrough.

Yeah I don't even use her much after her quest.

[bringingyouthefuture]

I don't know I was a little let down by companion quests in both POE2 and PK - but I think most of the Pk companion quests resolved themselves like a "See spot, see spot run, good spot" style of writing - consequences be damned I just choose the neutral good option always and everything is hunky-dorey and they all love me - and after if they are around there is no indicator that anything ever happened ...  In my opinion the dialogues with companions in POE2 shines way more than PK - the writing in regards to quests in POE2 is way more original - I mean how many times have you fought a lich raising an army, trying to conquer the world?  Where PK really shines is the scripted text encounters - I really dig them a lot - not so much the dice rolls but at lest the writing in them is solid.  POE2 does them well too don't get me wrong, but there is a lot of variety in the PK scripted encounters and I enjoy reading them.

[Daidre]

Comparing P:K and Deadfire in terms of companion quests just ridiculuous. P:K has 11 companions with 2-4 quest long lines and easily x5 content. Not all of it perfect or even good, with noticable outliners like Jubilost and Nok-Nok who is amazing and Octavia & Regongar on mediocre-to-fanfiction level.

 

And Deadfire has 7 companions with quests that are... beyond dissapointing. It is only one for every character without any unique locations. Outliners are:

- Tekehu, no personal quest but ton of plot/faction involvement.

- Aloth, close to nonexistent.

- Maya/Xoti quests with glorious "do not care what you telling me I am right and you are wrong" finales.

 

Only thing I could see playing them was image of Obsidian team over spreadsheet with "How much to cut to diminish our losses" header.

 

Oh, there is also a sidekicks but whoever came up with idea should be fired. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Daidre

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Oh, there is also a sidekicks but whoever came up with idea should be fired.

sounds reasonable. and ofc second-string npcs didnt exist before deadfire.

[xzar_monty]

I wouldn't describe the Deadfire companion quests that bluntly, but I would agree that the sidekicks seem to be an almost complete waste of time. Difficult to see why they're there. There's the promise of something, which is very good, but then there's actually very little, which kind of makes the disappointment bigger.

Edited February 21, 2019 by xzar_monty

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

 

It's easy to spot amateurish writing - 1) tell don't show 2) adjectives and adverbs, oh my!

 

Lmao at 'prettily'. Let the reader come to that conclusion, don't cram it down his/her throat (forcefully - see?).

To be fair, Xoti is not innocent of such descriptors either. I recall the game being pretty insistent on her rosy cheeks when I first met her in my playthrough.

Lol this is why my 3rd/4th drafts always include a repetition check. also certain phrases just *cant* be repeated without folk noticing.

 

Free bit of advice. Dont use the word 'harrumph' more than once every 50,000 words unless u want to hear about it from every other reader. learnt that one the hard way.

[xzar_monty]

Repetition is a very difficult problem and a blemish on many a book.

 

In David Lodge's hilarious and highly recommended Small World, an author is informed that two nouns he uses particularly often are "hand" and "breast", "usually one upon the other". It's pure gold, the book, despite its technological obsolescence (i.e. faxes etc.)

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

think issue with sidekicks is that obs labelled something that peeps didnt want labelling. there characters in rpgs that are flavourful gun turrets since forever. baldurs gate is full of them. as is arcanum, fallout, suikoden, shining force, front mission, yadda yadda. Then obs put name to it and everyone moans.

 

i feel is obvious why such characters exist - u can fk up major reactivity and still have a party. Also some players prefer to fill in the blanks and compose little adventures and exchanges in their head free from authorial meddling. minor npcs offer a springboard and a 'legitimacy' that wholly custom parties dont.

 

Ive played through many games deliberately using the 'b-team' for my own amusement. And id be surprised if im the only one with this tendency.

 

also if u aint dragged the sidekicks thru the dlcs, ur missing out on some good stuff. Most of the b-team have content in league with WM companions now.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Repetition is a very difficult problem and a blemish on many a book.

 

In David Lodge's hilarious and highly recommended Small World, an author is informed that two nouns he uses particularly often are "hand" and "breast", "usually one upon the other". It's pure gold, the book, despite its technological obsolescence (i.e. faxes etc.)

i do quite like lodge, even if his world doesnt feel like mine. Ive only read 'thinks' and 'nice work', if im remembering the titles right.

 

Also trying to avoid repetition (or pointless synonyms) when writing a lot of sex/romance is *really* hard. I feel its one of those where uve just got to make peace with ur own quirks and get on with it rather than trying to overcorrect.

[Daidre]

I am so harsh about sidekicks for mostly one reason:

You meet Ydwin who is first animancer companion in the series and damn interesting one too, but she is a sidekick. Than you look at Xoti and think - they cut Ydwin but wasted time and money to make this. With complete voice-over. And romance! 

 

They could extend Vatnir or even Rekke as cleric of unknown religion but Xoti is all we got.  

Edited February 21, 2019 by Daidre

[Boeroer]

You should have pledged more. Ydwin as full companion was a stretch goal. So basically you have to blame your parsimony.

[Daidre]

All my pledging ended up with Obsidian having enough value to sell themselves to Microsoft. It will take a miracle now to see POE 3 in any form resembling 1&2.

 

3 Years after I would be happy to be wrong about it. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Daidre