34 replies to this topic

[Madscientist]

I have just finished the game again and I liked it, but I have a problem with the main story.

Here is the short version of the game story:

- God of life posesses gian statue and almost kills me.

- God of death brings me back to life and orders me to follow the statue and find out what he is doing.

- I follow him and see how he destroys the wheel.

- end

 

Why do the gods need me to follow Eothas?

Its a giant statue walking around and bringing chaos and destruction whereever he goes. Nothing could be easier to find.

So why do the gods need me?

 

Why do the gods think that Eothas will listen to me?

Because he destroyed my castle? (No, he destroyed the home of many other people too.)

Because Ikind of survived when he stepped on me? ( No, he does not walk around to kill people.)

 

The best comment about the gods came from Eder in Ukaizo: "Gods are not parents who care for their kids. They are a bunch of kids playing around while the parents are gone."

If the gods want to find out what Eothas is doing they could just talk to him. It should be very easy for them to find a giant statue. The other gods talk to each other, even when they do not like each other. So why don´t they talk to Eothas. Because they blew him up? Well, Ondra killed Abydon once, but today they talk with each other.

Why should a god listen to a kith more than he listens to another god?

 

So if the gods had some commen sense, they would talk to Eothas, he tells them that he wants to destroy the wheel and there are 4 possible outcomes:

- The other gods convince Eothas and he stops his plan.

- Eothas convinces the others and they let him continue or they help him.

- They cannot agree on something and the other gods try to stop Eothas. The other gods have a bigger chance if they work together to stop him. Their attempt to stop him can succeed or fail.

 

So maybe the game is not about about the watcher being the hero of an epic journey.

Its a story about gods who are dumb, incompetent and who cannot agree on anything. In a moment where they become half aware of their incompetence they force a kith to do their job. The watchers mission is doomed to fail because (s)he is unable to stop Eothas from destroying the wheel.

[MaxQuest]

- I follow him and see how he destroys the wheel.

In the most common endings, he "breaks" THE MACHINE.
There is a dialog option where you ask him to "destroy" THE MACHINE. And if he agrees, it leads to the gradual ceasing of all life on Eora. Interestingly enough, if you've completed The Beast of Winter, he might deny your request, and tell you that it's all Rymrgand influence
 

Why do the gods need me to follow Eothas?

Its a giant statue walking around and bringing chaos and destruction whereever he goes. Nothing could be easier to find.

So why do the gods need me?

It's not that they need you. Afterall, Berath just rebirths you to animal, if you deny her request.

But they want one more pair of eyes on what Eothas is doing. Additionally, you already know a lot, and might see what others cannot. Not to mention that you have a history of putting your nose into the gods affairs, and coming out alive. And lastly there is a chance that if you gain at least some minor influence on Eothas, they could bribe or intimidate you into slightly altering the direction of his actions.
 

Why do the gods think that Eothas will listen to me?

They are not sure. But think that there might be such a chance.
Afterall Eothas is doing this "for mortals".
And you so far are the only one who is brave, somewhat able and insistent enough to follow him so close.
And if he kills you - so what?
 

So if the gods had some commen sense, they would talk to Eothas, he tells them that he wants to destroy the wheel and there are 4 possible outcomes:
- The other gods convince Eothas and he stops his plan.
- Eothas convinces the others and they let him continue or they help him.
- They cannot agree on something and the other gods try to stop Eothas. The other gods have a bigger chance if they work together to stop him. Their attempt to stop him can succeed or fail.

I think they already "talked" to Eothas, and he told them of his intention to "divulge the secret".
They didn't agree with him, and he decided to show the Engwithan Machines to the people, because just explaining it using words turned to be ineffective, as such speeches were quickly marked as heresy.

Majority of such machines were located in Dyrwood. And tbh I don't quite understand why Eothas failed to posses Aevar Wolf-Grin. But there was something about Dyrwood being under Magran's and Woedica influence/protection. So he used Waidwen, and started a war by coming from Readceras.

So as you see, others gods worked together and by having enough time, they succeeded at stopping him.

But this time, after possessing the statue, the situation was different. I recall Eothas mentioning something about it being a surprise move and other gods not having enough time/force to stop him even if they wanted to. And as we saw, Magran and Ondra indeed couldn't with their volcano/tsunami. While Woedica and Skaen not being able to do even that. As for Rymrgand he was just happy with where it's all going, and especially with potential accidental destruction of all and everything. As for Berath, Galawain, Abydon and Wael - I think they partially did agree with Eothas, but were afraid to do the move; and wary of becoming dependant on mortals.

Although... I think there was a chance to stop Eothas. If only other gods could destroy the adra pillars on Maje, Hasongo and Ashen Maw before Eothas would arrive there, plus kill all inhabitants in Deadfire... he might lack the essence to propel his statue body to Ukaizo.
 

Its a story about gods who are dumb, incompetent and who cannot agree on anything

Yeap. The gods look quite incompetent, and some of them even realize it. Rymrgand, if asked why he is such ****, replies that it's his nature.
Gods, were created to embodiment and portfolio-cover majority of imagined deities from various cultures of those times. And they have a strong affinity to the direction they were half-programmed to follow.

Eothas have understood that there is little chance in reasoning with the rest of gods. But he was kinda naive as well. Oh, let's break things up, and hope that under-the-fear-of-mass-extinction kith and gods will build a perfect world. And ofc forgetting to take into account, that kith might lack the required knowledge and experience; while gods can continue their schemes and even force the old order back. Afterall they are masters at manipulation and making people forget stuff.

Edited by MaxQuest, 07 February 2019 - 03:25 AM.

[InsaneCommander]

Maybe Eothas can hide himself somehow. Or they are afraid of him, like children that bully others and get scared when someone reacts.

 

But for me the real question is: why do the gods trust my watcher to give them information about Eothas, if I always pick clever and shady dialogue options. Not to mention that I was very disrespectful.

[Madscientist]

Thanks for clarification.

 

- OK, I thought the machine IS the wheel.

Looks like I was wrong and "the wheel" is the process of soul rebirth and the machine is a device that controls this process in a way that it takes away some energy from the souls to empower the gods.

Somebody asked Josh about this and he answered: "Think of the souls as a river and the wheel (I guess he means the machine) as a dam. If you destroy the dam after some millennia the river will not be the same as before." Looks like this was meant literally and the dam is a power station to empower the gods. Josh said that Berath tells you this, but I did not see these words in my recent playthrough.

 

I did BoW, but in the end I said to Eothas: People should forge their future for themselves and you should inspire them.

 

- You say that the other gods could not stop Eothas because they did not have enough time.

In BoW we can see that Eothas knew that there was a bomb under the bridge but he went there anyway.

He wanted to show the world that even gods can be destroyed and people should not depend on them too much.

This did not turn out as he wanted it so now he attacks the machine.

[Madscientist]

Maybe Eothas can hide himself somehow. Or they are afraid of him, like children that bully others and get scared when someone reacts.

 

But for me the real question is: why do the gods trust my watcher to give them information about Eothas, if I always pick clever and shady dialogue options. Not to mention that I was very disrespectful.

 

I did not like the scenes where I have to report to the other gods.

They just talk whatever they want and I can make a comment every now and then.

Does it have any effect what I chose in these conversations?

[MaxQuest]

- OK, I thought the machine IS the wheel.

Looks like I was wrong and "the wheel" is the process of soul rebirth and the machine is a device that controls this process in a way

Thank Berath for the confusion

The gods don't tell you right away that there is such a machine; and just tell "Eothas wants to destroy THE WHEEL. PLS STAHP! Or at least spy."

Btw, you might want to check these two posts for my understanding about THE WHEEL: one, two
 

Somebody asked Josh about this and he answered: "Think of the souls as a river and the wheel (I guess he means the machine) as a dam. If you destroy the dam after some millennia the river will not be the same as before." Looks like this was meant literally and the dam is a power station to empower the gods. Josh said that Berath tells you this, but I did not see these words in my recent playthrough.

Yes, the example with dam was given several times by now
As for Berath... nope, she doesn't tell you that. I was checking the game files/dialogues, and unless I've missed something (although I was trying my best not to), she only compares the process with [rain]. Not with [dam].

Also I'd like to note that something puzzles me. Something that I can't put a finger on right now...
But it is related to the watcher walking in [THE BETWEEN] at start of the game, Berath telling you "Welcome to the Beyond", and these two rain/dam examples.
 

I did BoW, but in the end I said to Eothas: People should forge their future for themselves and you should inspire them.

Same here. Kith does require some enlightenment on the matter. Lack of knowledge on how to work with the Ukaizo machine can lead to disastrous consequences.
 

In BoW we can see that Eothas knew that there was a bomb under the bridge but he went there anyway.
He wanted to show the world that even gods can be destroyed and people should not depend on them too much.
This did not turn out as he wanted it so now he attacks the machine.

Yeap. And this shows how a god can have wrong expectations about kith.
 

But for me the real question is: why do the gods trust my watcher to give them information about Eothas, if I always pick clever and shady dialogue options. Not to mention that I was very disrespectful.

I don't think they trust you)
They just ignore your pranking, because what else they can do? Kill you? Ok, but what it gives them? They rather utilize you now, and kill you later.
Only Rymrgand doesn't care
Additionally if you insult him, he feels free to disregard your "protection" from Berath.

Edited by MaxQuest, 07 February 2019 - 04:13 AM.

[uuuhhii]

gods doesn't need main character follow eothas

berath want main character try to talk to eothas and see if anything useful may come out of it

and the point isn't what main character do

but what player experience in the process

just like read books and notes to piece together some other major event happened in eora

but a little more direct

watch gods argue are a nice touch

Edited by uuuhhii, 07 February 2019 - 07:25 AM.

[Wormerine]

God's don't inhabit physical bodies in "here" anymore. One, as we can see with Eothas, even god's light touch can be destructive. What is more important is that physical body can be killed, and that's a risk gods aren't willing to take. For the majority of time they don't realise what Eothas' intension is. If they knew earlier maybe they would scrambleto find a better way of opposing him.

As it is, God's tend to use mortal agents to do their biding. Woedica used Thaos, now Berath uses Watcher.

Eothas isn't residing in the Beyond at this point - he is mortal and is soul(s) reside within the statue. Can he contact gods or vice versa? I don't think they can summon him as they do Watcher - your visits to the beyond are clearly tied to the essence (the bell) Berath implanted in you. I don't know of the way in which the gods could force him to talk to them. He certainly doesn't want to talk to them, as he knows they would oppose his plans. He only reveals them to you when he is certain that nothing can stop hit at this point.

I do think it is odd that god's can't track eothas by themselves, as you so it via adra pillars - something gods should have access to, no?

The story isn't about Watcher, that's for certain. I see it as the reflection of PoE1 story - but this time it is Eothas which decides to reveal the truth instead of hiding it, and just like with Thaos there is nothing really you can do about it but save yourself.

Your opinion matters because you are a human Eothas has contact with (?). Your perspective is important, because after all Eothas does what he does for humanity.

[MaxQuest]

"for kithity" (somehow am reading this in Quagmire voice)

Edited by MaxQuest, 07 February 2019 - 11:57 AM.

[Madscientist]

I think now I understand what my problem with this game:

I have the feeling that the game has two different focusses and I have the feeling that both have little to do with each other.

 

- There is the part with the factions and your other quests for different people. If you ignore the gods, this game is very similar to New Vegas. Make tons of quests for different people and join a faction or screw them all. Your choices here have a big impact on the world.

- The part with the gods where the main char can do nothing but observe and comment the things that will happen in any case.

 

I think I have a problem with the god part. Usually RPGs can be divided in two types:

- The choices of the main char have a large impact on the world. ( like the faction part of the game)

- The game is linear (no choice) but the main char does something importent. (All those games where you save the world from the bad guy, like most JRPG)

 

The idea that the main char is only an observer to something importent may be OK for some books. But in a computer RPG I want to do something importent myself, I don´t just want to watch things happening all the time.

There are many moments in games where you have to watch things happen. Usually it is when the bad guy destroys your home or kidnaps your friend. But then you can defeat the bad guy eventually, after facing some challenges.

[MountainTiger]

"for kithity" (somehow am reading this in Quagmire voice)

 

After journeying with the Watcher, Vatnir released a hit in the rare crossover of the hip hop/Rymrgandian devotional genres called "No Kithity"

[Verde]

The Gods are secretly rooting for the kith.

[Wormerine]

I am on my 3rd playthrough right now, I feel Deadfire is this kind of game whch gets better and better with every playthrough. Not that you are wrong - I think your observations are spot on. But the more I play the more I appreciate what Deadfire does right.

 

I think now I understand what my problem with this game:

I have the feeling that the game has two different focusses and I have the feeling that both have little to do with each other.

I would have agreed with you on that after my first playthrough, but not anymore. I do think game doesn't tie up everything well, though. The story line isn't clearly divided into Gods and Factions storylines. Faction quest directly bleed into Eothas' storyline, though in a very subtle way. Pretty much every major quest has some ties to the Wheel, Ukaizo, Engwith, history, Eothas philosophy and actions. It's actually quite brilliant. I don't think the issue lies in pre-endgame content. I really believe all of this is really strong.

 

- There is the part with the factions and your other quests for different people. If you ignore the gods, this game is very similar to New Vegas. Make tons of quests for different people and join a faction or screw them all. Your choices here have a big impact on the world.

- The part with the gods where the main char can do nothing but observe and comment the things that will happen in any case.

 

I think I have a problem with the god part. Usually RPGs can be divided in two types:

- The choices of the main char have a large impact on the world. ( like the faction part of the game)

- The game is linear (no choice) but the main char does something importent. (All those games where you save the world from the bad guy, like most JRPG)

 

The idea that the main char is only an observer to something importent may be OK for some books. But in a computer RPG I want to do something importent myself, I don´t just want to watch things happening all the time.

There are many moments in games where you have to watch things happen. Usually it is when the bad guy destroys your home or kidnaps your friend. But then you can defeat the bad guy eventually, after facing some challenges.

I don't see any of that as an issue but the opposite: it's a pretty great design - you have self-contained story, were your choices matter, and not a small scale. You interact with world powers fighitng for control over Deadfire, you can support/oppose their ideas, in the process discover who your character is and define him/her, and make impactful choices, which will have lasting impact on Deadfire and your companions. At the same time you have a cosmic conflic, which is above your competence. It allows to create a smooth continuation for the series, while still allowing you to make an impact on it - as a matter of fact your choice of how you direct Eothas have a lot in common with how you can resolve the conflict in Deadfire. I think it would be cooler if Eothas actions at the end were informed by your choices during the faction quests - quite a bit like Ciri in Witcher 3 has different ending depending on your dealings with her and lessons you thought her. I think that was a quite new and natural way of introducing "A, B, C" endings.

It all makes sense and it is all good. On paper. 
 

My main issue with the story of Deadfire is that the finale is quite unsatisfying:

1) I don't think it properly pays off all the faction quests. Ship combat battle before heading to Ukaizo and a pitiful encounter on Ukaizo in "nemesis leader" is not enough. 

 

2) Optional final boss fights, which has little to do with your character or story, other than being an obstacle on the way doesn't make for thrilling fight (if you happen to have it)

 

3) The whole Wheel thing, it's implications and consequences are not properly explored in the game, and especially in the finale. After replaying game multiple times and reading Josh posts I made my piece with it, and I think I know what's going on, but I do think the ending needed something to tie it up.

 

In other words I think what the game needed is a longer ending dungeon, in which we would explore a bit more of Ukaizo: "dungeon" were we learn more about the Wheel with reactivity to knowledge we have already gathered from all the quests on the way - for one to acknowledge players who did all the side content and to bring their attention to those moments. A nice moment to tie all those things together.

 

Pay off the factions. I think it is unfortunate that we really don't get to feel the wrath of an enemy faction. With a companion or companions abandoning us in most cases how cool would it be to go against them in a more substantial way. It would be also nice to interact with our new allies and get a taste of what they are like when they set foot on Ukaizo.

 

Ha! I know that I am describing is highly reactive content matching in length Forgotten Sanctum DLC (at least!). I really feel this game could use a space were all those big decisions and moment throughout the loose, open world experience get tied together, acknowledged and paid off. 

[house2fly]

Something about the size of Breith Eaman/Sun In Shadow would have been cool, maybe with some souls around to drop a little backstory on you. I definitely think they could have paid off the faction quests more. And I really wish the end conversation with Eothas was reactive, like the conversation with the Eyeless at the end of White March.

[ABearIsHere]

I do think it is odd that god's can't track eothas by themselves, as you so it via adra pillars - something gods should have access to, no?

It's hard to get a grip of how Adra is exactly connected to the metaphysical realms right now, but as far as I'm given to understand, the Gods have no access to the In-Between, just the Beyond and, to some small degree, the Here. In one of the endings for the Forgotten Sanctum, Wael regains their body and the ability to see the In-Between, which makes me think the Gods had that ability at one point, but that's probably for another thread/conversation.

[Madscientist]

Thanks Wormerine, you gave me a lot of things to think about.

 

I definitely agree on two things:

- The end was kind of underwhelming. You have a ship fight, and optional boss fight, the fight agains a pathetically weak group of soldiers and a conversation with Eothas.

Plus you never learn what the wheel actually is or what the destruction of the machine will do.

- You are loved by all factions until you destroy their headquarter or kill their leader.

Ok I managed that the Huana queen does not like me before this point, but you have to work real hard in order not to be loved by everyone.

 

The game is very good from a technical point. I like the class and stat system. I also like the way most quests are.

But often I have the feeling that something is missing in order to make the game not just good but really great. I cannot tell you what it is exactly.

I liked the BoW and especially the FS areas more than the base game. I think FS is extremely good. You have excentric wizards, mad cultists and tentacle monsters. It is funny, creepy and serious at the same time.

 

The Witcher 3 is a good example for a game that kept me engaged from beginning to end. I explored everything and made every quest and it never became boring. I think its one of the best games ever, but I cannot say what exactly makes it so great.

[Verde]

Even though I'm not a huge fan of the Witcher, I thought 3 had an excellent main story and antagonists, and prob one of the best quests ever in the Bloody Baron.

[Wormerine]

But often I have the feeling that something is missing in order to make the game not just good but really great. I cannot tell you what it is exactly.
I liked the BoW and especially the FS areas more than the base game.

How about: story-archs? The advantage DLCs have is that they are linear - while stories are more shallow that in the base game the narrative team has an advantage of creating more traditional storyline. Base game is highly unlinear and almost every bit of content can be done in any order. While individual quests do together create a wider tapestry they don't have a focused direction and buildup as a more traditional story would have. Witcher3, while being open world, consists of multiple linear lengthy paths, rather than bunch of individual vinettes. This free design can be done well: see Fallout New Vegas, and I might be wrong, but I think that the difference is that NV has a finally which brings a lot of your precious adventures together.

Or I might be off. But yeah, there is lots of good stuff in Deadfire but it doesn't resonate, so to speak.

[house2fly]

Witcher 3 doesn't even have antagonists. The Wild Hunt have maybe five lines between them, and they all suck. I like the visual design of their armour. I guess?

[Madscientist]

 

But often I have the feeling that something is missing in order to make the game not just good but really great. I cannot tell you what it is exactly.
I liked the BoW and especially the FS areas more than the base game.

How about: story-archs? The advantage DLCs have is that they are linear - while stories are more shallow that in the base game the narrative team has an advantage of creating more traditional storyline. Base game is highly unlinear and almost every bit of content can be done in any order. While individual quests do together create a wider tapestry they don't have a focused direction and buildup as a more traditional story would have. Witcher3, while being open world, consists of multiple linear lengthy paths, rather than bunch of individual vinettes. This free design can be done well: see Fallout New Vegas, and I might be wrong, but I think that the difference is that NV has a finally which brings a lot of your precious adventures together.

Or I might be off. But yeah, there is lots of good stuff in Deadfire but it doesn't resonate, so to speak.

 

 

I think thats it.

 

In The Witcher 3 you have several main story quest lines you can follow however you like and each main quest line can lead to other side quest lines that are interesting on their own ( Bloody Baron family reunion, viking king election, conflict between several mafia groups, . . . )

 

I also think a good dungeon should also tell a story. A good example that was mentioned often was the vault in New Vegas, where you have the election who gets sacrificed.

 

In deadfire I did not like the many small "dungeons" with only one encounter. They were not bad, they were just not very interesting. World map encounters that disappear after you solve them are absolutely fine (e.g. several bounties), but a dungeon should be a bit more than one room with one group of enemies and a few traps. I think Poko Kohara was the only halfway good dungeon in the base game.

PoE1 had the temple of Eothas, Readrics keep and Skean cultists as interesting dungeons with a story and some importent choices at the end and at the end of the game you had sun in shadows with an epic boss fight at the end.