I can see why there aren't that many new builds posted...

[drithius]

It seems anything which someone deems fun and worthwhile gets nerfed into oblivion...  

 

Bought the game on release, only playing now, and the sheer amount of changes I see from in-game versus various guides is baffling.

Edited January 7, 2019 by drithius

[Franknstein]

Nope. The game is in better shape and more fun to play now. Because Balance!

[Yosharian]

It seems anything which someone deems fun and worthwhile gets nerfed into oblivion...  

 

Bought the game on release, only playing now, and the sheer amount of changes I see from in-game versus various guides is baffling.

 

That's more a damning indictment of the state of the various game wikis than it is anything else.  Game guides invariably become outdated, that's not unique to this game.  In fact, it is a positive thing that the developers are attempting to balance the game.

 

I know that some take the attitude that balancing removes fun, but I don't see the fun in destroying any challenge a game has simply by picking up a broken item.  It's fun to create powerful builds, strategies, and so on, but there is absolutely no skill involved in picking up an overpowered weapon and then autoattacking everything to its doom.

 

If there is anything to bemoan, it's the fact that the developers aren't willing to take balancing further.  There are many classes and subclasses that have been utter trash since the game was released, and remain so.

[Verde]

 

It seems anything which someone deems fun and worthwhile gets nerfed into oblivion...

 

Bought the game on release, only playing now, and the sheer amount of changes I see from in-game versus various guides is baffling.

That's more a damning indictment of the state of the various game wikis than it is anything else. Game guides invariably become outdated, that's not unique to this game. In fact, it is a positive thing that the developers are attempting to balance the game.

 

I know that some take the attitude that balancing removes fun, but I don't see the fun in destroying any challenge a game has simply by picking up a broken item. It's fun to create powerful builds, strategies, and so on, but there is absolutely no skill involved in picking up an overpowered weapon and then autoattacking everything to its doom.

 

If there is anything to bemoan, it's the fact that the developers aren't willing to take balancing further. There are many classes and subclasses that have been utter trash since the game was released, and remain so.

Which ones do you think have remained so?

[Yosharian]

 

 

It seems anything which someone deems fun and worthwhile gets nerfed into oblivion...

 

Bought the game on release, only playing now, and the sheer amount of changes I see from in-game versus various guides is baffling.

That's more a damning indictment of the state of the various game wikis than it is anything else. Game guides invariably become outdated, that's not unique to this game. In fact, it is a positive thing that the developers are attempting to balance the game.

 

I know that some take the attitude that balancing removes fun, but I don't see the fun in destroying any challenge a game has simply by picking up a broken item. It's fun to create powerful builds, strategies, and so on, but there is absolutely no skill involved in picking up an overpowered weapon and then autoattacking everything to its doom.

 

If there is anything to bemoan, it's the fact that the developers aren't willing to take balancing further. There are many classes and subclasses that have been utter trash since the game was released, and remain so.

Which ones do you think have remained so?

 

 

Conjurer, for example, because you can't choose the pet you get given.  Baffling.

 

Transmuter: does anyone use this spell?

 

Corpse-eater is embarrassingly bad.

 

Mage-slayer's penalties are way too severe.

 

Nalpazca is still bugged to **** because of Arcane Dampener.

 

Darcozzi's unique ability is utter rubbish.

 

There are probably others, but those are the ones obvious to me.

 

Illusionist could use a tweak as well, losing access to Conjuration is fine, but Enchanting?  **** that noise.  Just let us choose our god-damned opposed schools and be done with it, Obsi.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Yosharian

[heldred]

I agree, the game needs a patch 4.5 balance check... too many sub-classes are rubbish.  Then again, a few mods address some of these shortcomings.

[uuuhhii]

monk chanter and streetfighter still too powerful

no point try to make something stronger

why not just build for fun

Edited January 8, 2019 by uuuhhii

[Ensign]

Which ones do you think have remained so?

Not necessarily utter trash, but generally poor choices (excepting the brand new specializations that haven't seen a pass yet):

 

Corpse Eater: penalties too severe and hard to use for the benefits.

 

Mage Slayer: severe penalties make it often a trap choice.

 

Stormspeaker: not usually mentioned because it's multiclassed, but single class chanter Tekehu is ready bad.

 

Beguiler: worse at its described role than Ascendant with no real upsides.

 

Wild Mind: lololol.

 

Black Jacket: I don't know that it is underpowered given a relatively minor drawback, but the role that this was envisioned to fill was nerfed hard enough that it isn't really attractive anymore.

 

Shattered Pillar: honorable mention. It does have a niche, but has so many drawbacks that even in places where you might otherwise see it vanilla monk is better.

 

Sister of the Reaping Moon: not too bad, but almost a strict downgrade from vanilla monk.

 

Darcozzi Paladini: while every other Paladin order has found a mechanical niche, Darcozzi basically exist as a no frills roleplaying order. Nothing really to advise it here.

 

Brotherhood of the Five Suns: another NPC class - actually worse than a theoretical vanilla paladin with no special benefit.

 

Priest of Eothas: ultra generic spell list makes it's only niche an ultra second class focused multiclass, and I don't think any of those are particularly good.

 

Priest of Berath: similar to the above.

 

Priest of Gaun: a bad version of Eothas. At least Blessed Harvest is good for Maje Isle?

 

Sharpshooter: almost a strict downgrade on vanilla Ranger. Excessive drawbacks for minimal benefits.

 

All wizard specializations except Evoker - penalties are excessive for very minor bonuses. Many of these don't scale appreciably with power level.

 

 

In addition, rogue and chanter have powerful, generic enough subclasses in trickster and troubadour that their vanilla versions are almost always a poor choice.

[Haplok]

I agree with most of the above, except Sharpshooter. I really like the bonuses, particularly on a low penetration weapon like a blunderbuss. More crit conversion is always welcome as well.

So it might be not an obvious pick, but I actually think this one of the best balanced subclasses - win some, loose some. Does not make vanilla ranger obsolete and that's a good thing.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Haplok

[Boeroer]

Blessed Harvest scales wickedly with Power Levels. One of the best lvl-1 spells there is. Try a Xoti with Morning Star + this spell: *whack*...*explode*. Priest of Gaun + Helwalker would be a great combo just because of this spell...

[Purudaya]

I'm genuinely surprised that people are still upset about the obviously necessary balance changes between 1.0 and 4.0. Charge + mob stance + swift flurry nuking entire encounters with one mouse click stopped being fun for most players after the 2nd or 3rd go. 

 

 

 

Inb4 'single player game;' some of us like to do multiple playthroughs and a degree of equity between builds helps sustain variety. 

 

As for classes that need help, I wish people would pay more attention to the assassin. It's fine for an evoker multi, but it's pretty garbage as a martial melee class and slinging fireballs from stealth or backstabbing with a greatsword isn't exactly what comes to mind when you're wanting to play a cloak-and-dagger type with solid burst dps. Just changing backstab to a fixed (and ideally progressive\scaling) bonus instead of a percentage based one would be a big help.

[Elric Galad]

I think the only problem of the Black Jacket is that Devoted is much more straightforward and popular for DPS build

 

Instant swap between, for example, Wahai Poraga / Willbreaker / some arbalest / Flail & Board offers a lots of possibilities : alpha strike / debuff with modals / single target vs AoE DPS / offense vs defense.

 

You may be using a shield and swap to 2-hander for a clear out.

You may debuff all 3 secondary defenses (thanks willbreaker).

You may alpha-interrupt an annoying wiz or even draw your arbalest as a basically free action while in melee just to knock the said wiz.

 

It requires a bit more build-around but I fail to see the class as bad or limited to quickswitch gunswapping.

[Yosharian]

 

As for classes that need help, I wish people would pay more attention to the assassin. It's fine for an evoker multi,

Ooh, could you be more specific?  I have an Evoker that I could turn into a Spellblade, but I wasn't sure if it would work, or how it might work.

[Archaven]

It seems anything which someone deems fun and worthwhile gets nerfed into oblivion...

 

Bought the game on release, only playing now, and the sheer amount of changes I see from in-game versus various guides is baffling.

Better equip yourself with flame shield . Basically I would say the earlier you play the better. But since you are late we have the most balanced multiplayer game to date .

 

For me personally I like every build to be viable and kick some good butt at mid late game. But the way I see it this game has many classes and subclasses yes.

 

They were not meant to be made equal. There are some classes will deal higher damage. There are some classes that are great in tanking and some support. So you have to find the one you like to play in 2 of those classes.

 

There are some classes which out right mediocre in dps if you choose to do so. But I kinda agree with you on the approach obsidian is taking. They are only eyeing on whatever build or item/Armor/weapon//etc. and they will nerf it.

 

I think that's their answer in giving folks who wanted a challenge? Maybe they are waiting for a dark souls equivalent award or something

[Sanctuary]

 

 

As for classes that need help, I wish people would pay more attention to the assassin. It's fine for an evoker multi,

Ooh, could you be more specific?  I have an Evoker that I could turn into a Spellblade, but I wasn't sure if it would work, or how it might work.

 

 

It works how you think it would.  You're an Evoker that gets the passive bonuses from the Assassin.  Trickster/Evoker is another option, but Assassin/Evoker is pretty much the glassiest, glass cannon there is.

 

[Yosharian]

 

 

 

As for classes that need help, I wish people would pay more attention to the assassin. It's fine for an evoker multi,

Ooh, could you be more specific?  I have an Evoker that I could turn into a Spellblade, but I wasn't sure if it would work, or how it might work.

 

 

It works how you think it would.  You're an Evoker that gets the passive bonuses from the Assassin.  Trickster/Evoker is another option, but Assassin/Evoker is pretty much the glassiest, glass cannon there is.

 

 

 

"it works how you think it would"

 

*video is full of mistakes*

 

Not trying to be an ass, but I want to know EXACTLY, SPECIFICALLY what makes this multiclass work.

[Boeroer]

Assassinate (attacking with higher ACC, crit damage and PEN from stealth and invisibility) works with spells - also AoE spells like Fireball and such. That's what makes this multiclass work.  

[Haplok]

+25 Accuracy, +4 Pen and +50% critical damage on (often Empowered) spells cast from Stealth. Some encounters end before they really start.

Also you can re-stealth a few times to drop another nuke...

 

Edit: Ninja'd by our Blue Master Ninja!

Edited January 8, 2019 by Haplok

[Clerith]

Ability changes were mostly fine, with a few over-nerfs, but item changes still have me kinda tilted, like Sungrazer. Was that really necessary?

 

It's also just natural for a game at the end of its life cycle to have much, much less new content like builds.

 

Obsidian were really good at nerfing key items in popular and powerful builds that popped up at the forums though.

[theBalthazar]

I agree with that : Obsidian Must Reinforce possibilities of associations of multiclass. All bonuses (even weak) must to give satisfaction. In fact, a lot of things can not stack, when others combinations stack. = Not balanced.

 

Also need a buff :

 

Priest - Druid

 

Personnally, I don't see why Monk not need a nerf...

Edited January 8, 2019 by theBalthazar

[Sanctuary]

 

 

 

 

As for classes that need help, I wish people would pay more attention to the assassin. It's fine for an evoker multi,

Ooh, could you be more specific?  I have an Evoker that I could turn into a Spellblade, but I wasn't sure if it would work, or how it might work.

 

 

It works how you think it would.  You're an Evoker that gets the passive bonuses from the Assassin.  Trickster/Evoker is another option, but Assassin/Evoker is pretty much the glassiest, glass cannon there is.

 

 

 

"it works how you think it would"

 

*video is full of mistakes*

 

Not trying to be an ass, but I want to know EXACTLY, SPECIFICALLY what makes this multiclass work.

 

 

Sorry I guess.  Haven't played them since launch, but it was for the accuracy, crit and penetration bonuses from stealth, which others have mentioned.  I never particularly thought it was a great combination for the first ten or so levels though due to your limits with entering stealth.  Unless it's been changed since then too, it only works with spells that are single bursts of damage, or at least it only works with the first hit of multi-hitting spells, and then they hit normally (in this case, weaker than a single class Wizard).  I think Ass/Evoker is OK if you're a) Empowering (I never do) and b) only care about alpha strikes, and using non channeling and non multi-hitting spells.  I think a straight up Evoker is a lot more powerful over the course of a fight and requires a lot less micro if you're focusing on spells.  The Ass/Evoker seems to play better as an actual hybrid style, and not just a nuker.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Sanctuary

[Manveru123]

 

Inb4 'single player game;' some of us like to do multiple playthroughs and a degree of equity between builds helps sustain variety. 

The game has tons of possible combinations of classes, if you deem something broken, you can safely avoid it and use any of the other 50 possibilities.

 

Not surprising that there aren't many new builds posted, imagine you discover some fun combination of classes or item synergy, share it, and two patches later it gets nerfed because someone cried that it touches him in the wrong place. Would you share a build under these circumstances? I wouldn't.

[thelee]

 

 

 

It seems anything which someone deems fun and worthwhile gets nerfed into oblivion...

 

Bought the game on release, only playing now, and the sheer amount of changes I see from in-game versus various guides is baffling.

That's more a damning indictment of the state of the various game wikis than it is anything else. Game guides invariably become outdated, that's not unique to this game. In fact, it is a positive thing that the developers are attempting to balance the game.

 

I know that some take the attitude that balancing removes fun, but I don't see the fun in destroying any challenge a game has simply by picking up a broken item. It's fun to create powerful builds, strategies, and so on, but there is absolutely no skill involved in picking up an overpowered weapon and then autoattacking everything to its doom.

 

If there is anything to bemoan, it's the fact that the developers aren't willing to take balancing further. There are many classes and subclasses that have been utter trash since the game was released, and remain so.

Which ones do you think have remained so?

 

 

Conjurer, for example, because you can't choose the pet you get given.  Baffling.

 

Transmuter: does anyone use this spell?

 

Corpse-eater is embarrassingly bad.

 

Mage-slayer's penalties are way too severe.

 

Nalpazca is still bugged to **** because of Arcane Dampener.

 

Darcozzi's unique ability is utter rubbish.

 

There are probably others, but those are the ones obvious to me.

 

Illusionist could use a tweak as well, losing access to Conjuration is fine, but Enchanting?  **** that noise.  Just let us choose our god-damned opposed schools and be done with it, Obsi.

 

 

Conjurer: not choosing the pet is irrelevant really. The pet's main benefit is +1 PL as a passive bonus (meaning it stacks), which every pet grants. Any other benefit is just icing on the cake. I would consider the conjurer bonus second-best frankly (after evoker).

 

Nazpalca: I wouldn't consider it a bug, frankly. Stock up on drugs.

 

Giving the option to choose your own opposed schools is a bad idea for balance, IMO. (I think it's funny the difference in school specialization between 3.5e d&d and 3e d&d when they finally figured out that not all schools are created equal). I'd rather they make PL scaling more effective and the schools themselves a bit more balanced... right now an evoker and conjurer basically get a "free" school because most enchantment spells have no recovery (so recovery penalty is pointless), and enchanters and conjurers get a bit of the shaft because their +2 PL is on many spells that don't get as much scaling as even a simple AL1 missile spell.

 

 

 

Which ones do you think have remained so?

Not necessarily utter trash, but generally poor choices (excepting the brand new specializations that haven't seen a pass yet):

 

Corpse Eater: penalties too severe and hard to use for the benefits.

 

Mage Slayer: severe penalties make it often a trap choice.

 

Stormspeaker: not usually mentioned because it's multiclassed, but single class chanter Tekehu is ready bad.

 

Beguiler: worse at its described role than Ascendant with no real upsides.

 

Wild Mind: lololol.

 

Black Jacket: I don't know that it is underpowered given a relatively minor drawback, but the role that this was envisioned to fill was nerfed hard enough that it isn't really attractive anymore.

 

Shattered Pillar: honorable mention. It does have a niche, but has so many drawbacks that even in places where you might otherwise see it vanilla monk is better.

 

Sister of the Reaping Moon: not too bad, but almost a strict downgrade from vanilla monk.

 

Darcozzi Paladini: while every other Paladin order has found a mechanical niche, Darcozzi basically exist as a no frills roleplaying order. Nothing really to advise it here.

 

Brotherhood of the Five Suns: another NPC class - actually worse than a theoretical vanilla paladin with no special benefit.

 

Priest of Eothas: ultra generic spell list makes it's only niche an ultra second class focused multiclass, and I don't think any of those are particularly good.

 

Priest of Berath: similar to the above.

 

Priest of Gaun: a bad version of Eothas. At least Blessed Harvest is good for Maje Isle?

 

Sharpshooter: almost a strict downgrade on vanilla Ranger. Excessive drawbacks for minimal benefits.

 

All wizard specializations except Evoker - penalties are excessive for very minor bonuses. Many of these don't scale appreciably with power level.

 

 

In addition, rogue and chanter have powerful, generic enough subclasses in trickster and troubadour that their vanilla versions are almost always a poor choice.

 

 

The only thing I can agree with you on this is probably Stormspeaker (broken design kind of, not that it needs buffing), Wild Mind (wtflol I do not want any subclass that makes me lose fights), and Brotherhood of the Five Suns (pre-4.0 was the only paladin order that doesn't upgrade an existing ability and instead gives you a lame third choice)--Pallegina's subclass is also hurt in that one of the best parts of being a paladin (Deep Faith for +15 all defenses) will never work at full strength because obsidian-designed NPCs have no favored or disfavored reputations.

 

Mage Slayer is easy to make a trap build, but I would actually add Streetfighter for similar reasons, simply because with poor metagaming you could create a really hot mess of a easy to die character. I would not consider mage slayer a poor choice though, more of a "careful choice" similar to streetfighter. 

 

Everything else you seem to be describing "this subclass is not a niche I like or fully get" which I mean is fine, but is different from "poor choice." For example, I don't know how sharpshooter constitutes an almost "strict downgrade" on vanilla ranger. Priest of Gaun is not a worse version of Eothas - much better in fact, and like Boeroer says Blessed Harvest scales real well and is arguably the best AL1 spell in the game (how do you like doing 100+ damage on a graze)? Eothas might be generic, but "free spells" is free spells and works real well with multiclassing; it is essentially the vanilla priest. I would also happily pick up most wizard subclasses as is. Evoker is definitely the best due to broken PL scaling issues mentioned above (and a sick subclass bonus), but conjurer gets a great bonus, enchanter has a half-decent bonus and gets access to evocation spells, illusionist has good PL scaling and bonus and evocation magic, and transmuter gets very good PL scaling (bonus accuracy/duration for Slicken or Combusting Wounds alone makes it worth it for much of the game IMO). And of course the Blood Mage which, well, I tried running one in my latest PotD+challenges+upscaling run and the Blood Mage basically completely trivialized Maje so thoroughly that I removed them from my party in favor of a simple Fassina conjurer when I left the island.

Edited January 8, 2019 by thelee

[Verde]

 

 

 

It seems anything which someone deems fun and worthwhile gets nerfed into oblivion...

 

Bought the game on release, only playing now, and the sheer amount of changes I see from in-game versus various guides is baffling.

That's more a damning indictment of the state of the various game wikis than it is anything else. Game guides invariably become outdated, that's not unique to this game. In fact, it is a positive thing that the developers are attempting to balance the game.

 

I know that some take the attitude that balancing removes fun, but I don't see the fun in destroying any challenge a game has simply by picking up a broken item. It's fun to create powerful builds, strategies, and so on, but there is absolutely no skill involved in picking up an overpowered weapon and then autoattacking everything to its doom.

 

If there is anything to bemoan, it's the fact that the developers aren't willing to take balancing further. There are many classes and subclasses that have been utter trash since the game was released, and remain so.

Which ones do you think have remained so?

Conjurer, for example, because you can't choose the pet you get given. Baffling.

 

Transmuter: does anyone use this spell?

 

Corpse-eater is embarrassingly bad.

 

Mage-slayer's penalties are way too severe.

 

Nalpazca is still bugged to **** because of Arcane Dampener.

 

Darcozzi's unique ability is utter rubbish.

 

There are probably others, but those are the ones obvious to me.

 

Illusionist could use a tweak as well, losing access to Conjuration is fine, but Enchanting? **** that noise. Just let us choose our god-damned opposed schools and be done with it, Obsi.

I'll agree on most of those...I mean enchanting is a powerful tree but has anyone actually played through the game as an Enchanter?

 

You know what's a small crime? The Transmuter has a cool special ability, on paper. Not only is it subpar in combat, it uses the two-Club Ogre model with no clubs! You can even see their reflections. I couldn't look at it.

[Ensign]

Everything else you seem to be describing "this subclass is not a niche I like or fully get" which I mean is fine, but is different from "poor choice." For example, I don't know how sharpshooter constitutes an almost "strict downgrade" on vanilla ranger.

 

Strictly speaking every subclass in the game has both unique benefits and downsides, so with sufficient system mastery you can build a character around those differences and make something that isn't strictly worse than the vanilla class.  I think that is an impossible standard for what makes something a trap.

 

The players posting here generally have a high level of system mastery.  We're going to be able to figure out how to take advantage of corner cases.  Much more important to the game's design is how choices appear, and how they play without a high level of system mastery.  Those are the players that are going to be 'trapped'.  Thus the real questions for a design are, 'does this design offer a clear value proposition?', and 'does its choice deliver on that value proposition?'

 

 

Strictly speaking, Sharpshooter has a niche - the blunderbuss build, while it gives up a lot for that point of pen, is a build that makes sense.  If you where thinking you wanted to play a long range pew pew Ranger and clearly Sharpshooter is for you, well...dealing *lower* DPS at the cost of lower defenses is probably not what you had in mind.  Oops.

 

Control Cipher was a very popular character in the first game, and Beguiler is clearly there to double down on that role for those players, right?  Won't they be disappointed to find that Ascendant is better at pounding foes with a steady stream of debuffs in almost every way?  That there is a corner case where you're better at spamming low level debuffs is little to offset the disappointment of Ascendant was the right choice if you wanted to spam high level debuffs instead.

 

Priest of Eothas has a valuable corner case as a multi-class core priest in a build that wants to focus its points on the other half of its multi-class.  It's the priest version of Stormspeaker, in a sense.   Cool story.  How many players thought to play a single class priest and picked Eothas because he's both the canonical 'good' deity and central to the plot of the game, and accidentally stumbled into a poor choice?

 

 

I stand by all of the listed subclasses as either deserving buffs (because they fail to deliver on their value proposition) or reworks (because their value proposition lacks clarity or is too much of a corner case).

Edited January 8, 2019 by Ensign