Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[Dr <3]

Thks for replays. I found that sun & moon upgraded have a minor healing on hit ( you heal a proportion of lash's fire dmg ). Eager blade is another solid option ( high might+ practiced healer + healer belt + bonesetter amulet+ footprints of ahu taka gives you about 60 hp after a crit (50% chance))

[Gregorovich]

Imbued Minoletta's Missiles seem to be a bit underwhelming, I've checked that the amount of the missiles is not affected by the PL. So the multiclass Arcane Archer (multiclassed, as I used) will shoot only 3 missiles dealing 20-30 in total damage to enemies for 2 Bond. I's better to reduce the cost or increase the amount of the missiles. What do you think?

[AndreaColombo]

^ PL scaling on imbued spells would be good.

[Gregorovich]

I haven't checked the other spells. Well, all the the damaging abilities should scale with the PL, so there's little point to take arcane archer, at least without AoE weapons. Does anybody know if the devs change any skills during beta? That's the first beta for me

[Paxicon]

Bellower. I don't get it. What is the "role" the bellower is supposed to fill. Is he primarily a caster? Is he support or is he DPS? What about his slow rate of gaining phrases. Can someone help me understand it?

[guildwriter]

So here's more info on Tactician's bonuses and cons:

 

Brilliant Tactician: Fighter gains the Brilliant Inspiration whenever all foes are Flanked and no allies are Flanked

Tactical Dilemma: Fighter is Shaken and Confused while Flanked

 

So if you were going to build a solo build out of this you'd need either Squid's Grasp or Gipon Prudenesco to for their Immunity to Flanked bonus to start with.  Confusion would be okayish but Shaken and the -3 PL is too much to swallow.  I wonder if Cap of the Laughingstock would block it though?  If it would, that plus Modwyr would take care of confusion and it wouldn't matter.

 

As far as all foes are flanked, you would need a lot of engagement to do that sort of thing naturally.  Or be a wizard with the multiple blind options.  Or as it turns out be a Rogue!  Smoke Cloud, Smoke Grenade, and Pernicious Cloud all apply Distracted on Reflex save which also makes enemies flanked.  Oh man, these also all interrupt as well so you can recharge multiple Discipline with them as well!

 

Wow there's a use for those abilities now!

Edited December 1, 2018 by guildwriter

[TheWeaver]

Bellower. I don't get it. What is the "role" the bellower is supposed to fill. Is he primarily a caster? Is he support or is he DPS? What about his slow rate of gaining phrases. Can someone help me understand it?

 

I'm not sure I "get it" either, but... It seems like you are incentivized to hold onto you Phrases until you reach the cap, then you cast the most costly Invocation you can which gives it and you an increased power level.  Then you can do other stuff to take advantage of the PL increase until it crashes.  Lather...rinse...repeat.  Of course the attractiveness of this depends on:

 

1) How much of a PL boost you get per phrase (I'm guess 1PL per, but don't know).

2) How long the boost lasts after the invocation.

3) Having other stuff to do that can leverage the increased PL (which I think means multi, since it can't be other stuff the Chanter does, unless there are chants that greatly benefit from PL or the Chanter is just going to hit stuff).

 

At some level it has an Ascendant like feel to it -- build up for a bit, hit peek power, wail away, repeat.  But does seem much less effective unless you get a relatively big boost that lasts for a relatively long time (ie longer that Ascendancy does).  That seems unlikely.

 

BTW -- I didn't see anything that said the Bellower gets phrases slower.  I think they gain phrases at the stock Chanter rate (unless I missed that).

[TheWeaver]

So here's more info on Tactician's bonuses and cons:

 

Brilliant Tactician: Fighter gains the Brilliant Inspiration whenever all foes are Flanked and no allies are Flanked

Tactical Dilemma: Fighter is Shaken and Confused while Flanked

 

So if you were going to build a solo build out of this you'd need either Squid's Grasp or Gipon Prudenesco to for their Immunity to Flanked bonus to start with.  Confusion would be okayish but Shaken and the -3 PL is too much to swallow.  I wonder if Cap of the Laughingstock would block it though?  If it would, that plus Modwyr would take care of confusion and it wouldn't matter.

 

As far as all foes are flanked, you would need a lot of engagement to do that sort of thing naturally.  Or be a wizard with the multiple blind options.  Or as it turns out be a Rogue!  Smoke Cloud, Smoke Grenade, and Pernicious Cloud all apply Distracted on Reflex save which also makes enemies flanked.

 

Wow there's a use for those abilities now!

 

Or a Cipher with Phantom Foes.  Tactician/Soulblade might be interesting. 

 

The club you get from the Black Isle boys can grant immune to flanked as well, IIRC.  And the club modal can lower will, which I think is what PF targets.

Edited December 1, 2018 by TheWeaver

[guildwriter]

Or a Cipher with Phantom Foes.  Tactician/Soulblade might be interesting. 

 

 

 

The club you get from the Black Isle boys can grant immune to flanked as well, IIRC.  And the club modal can lower will, which I think is what PF targets.

 

 

Kapana Tanga has a large downside and that's the subpar pen it has.  At Superb it has a pen of 8.  Even with the dual damage that level of pen is low enough that you'll be underpenning or no penning a lot of the time.  

 

I agree with Tactician/Soulblade though.  Phantom Foes is a god tier debuff.  Only thing to mention is that Cipher already has unlimited resources, so it doesn't quite get the full benefits of another resource limited class.  But Fighter/Cipher is strong period so the point is moot.  

[Paxicon]

 

Bellower. I don't get it. What is the "role" the bellower is supposed to fill. Is he primarily a caster? Is he support or is he DPS? What about his slow rate of gaining phrases. Can someone help me understand it?

 

 

 

BTW -- I didn't see anything that said the Bellower gets phrases slower.  I think they gain phrases at the stock Chanter rate (unless I missed that).

 

 

Thanks for replying! To clarify, I meant only that the 6 second per phrase pace that is normal for Chanters feels very slow if the class is intended to be something of a chanter ascendant. 

[TheWeaver]

 

Or a Cipher with Phantom Foes.  Tactician/Soulblade might be interesting. 

 

 

 

The club you get from the Black Isle boys can grant immune to flanked as well, IIRC.  And the club modal can lower will, which I think is what PF targets.

 

 

Kapana Tanga has a large downside and that's the subpar pen it has.  At Superb it has a pen of 8.  Even with the dual damage that level of pen is low enough that you'll be underpenning or no penning a lot of the time.  

 

I agree with Tactician/Soulblade though.  Phantom Foes is a god tier debuff.  Only thing to mention is that Cipher already has unlimited resources, so it doesn't quite get the full benefits of another resource limited class.  But Fighter/Cipher is strong period so the point is moot.  

 

 

Still might make a reasonable stat stick to avoid flanked and apply the modal (assuming that matters to your build).  It also grants increased engagement (I think you get +1 that isn't mutually exclusive with the flanked immunity)  Squid's also has the downside that you have to burn Adra Ban to get rid of the curse (which may or may not matter depending on other priorities).

 

And good point on the Cipher resource angle -- the payoff here is Brilliant which is much more useful when you multi with another resource limited class (though Fighter still gets use out of it).

[hilfazer]

Or have 2 characters - one is Tactician and other is Cipher.

[Dr <3]

I also endorse tactician + ciper. Sound very promising.

[Saito Hikari]

As of this patch, Frostseeker should have the Frost keyword. I would expect it to benefit from Arcane Archer's bonuses and not suffer from the penalties.

 

Okay, so I finally got home from work and acquired the Frostseeker.

 

It is currently a lot like Essence Interrupter, in that Frostseeker also appears to be completely exempt from Arcane Archer's bonuses and penalties as well.

 

I know it's not that unique weapons in general are exempt, because I decided to have my main character dual-wield Xoti's sickle and St. Drogga's Skull (a preorder/collector's edition weapon that does additional burn damage), and got the -5 accuracy penalty on both despite the Skull doing burn damage. This tells me the developers likely had the foresight to specifically exclude Essence Interrupter and Frostseeker from gaining any bonuses or penalties with Arcane Archer.

 

(Using Frostseeker with Arcane Archer's abilities is also a really bad idea, because using an Imbue ability just results in Frostseeker firing one projectile instead of 3, resulting in an outright net loss of damage compared to autoattacking in some cases. Especially with Imbue: Missiles, where the missiles actually do less damage than the missing two projectiles + even if the initial full attack used to deliver the spell crits, the Frostseeker AoE effect doesn't trigger.)

 

Arcane Archer sounds like an interesting subclass on paper, but between its skills not generating focus/not gaining damage bonuses from Soul Whip cipher multiclass, certain unique weapons not benefiting from bonuses at all (and actively discouraging use of multi-hit weapons), and still having to deal with pet management, it doesn't seem like a subclass that lends itself to synergy with much of anything. I am honestly really disappointed.

 

(Oh, and before anyone asks, no, you can't use Arcane Archer's skills with melee weapons. Even though you'll still get the penalties with said melee weapons.)

 

On a slightly different note, since I haven't seen anyone mention this anywhere, it appears that Arcane Archer's bonus Arcana accuracy scaling is +0.5 Accuracy for every level in Arcana.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[AndreaColombo]

Interesting, but also bad news. AFAIK, Essence Interrupter and Frostseeker are the only ranged weapons that can reliably output a damage type that qualifies for the Arcane Archer’s bonuses.

 

If they are exempt from the class’s perks, the class does bad DPS-wise and is not worth taking over Sharpshooter. It would be a good alternative if you could use a weapon that consistently avoids the penalty and gains the bonuses.

[Saito Hikari]

Interesting, but also bad news. AFAIK, Essence Interrupter and Frostseeker are the only ranged weapons that can reliably output a damage type that qualifies for the Arcane Archer’s bonuses.

 

If they are exempt from the class’s perks, the class does bad DPS-wise and is not worth taking over Sharpshooter. It would be a good alternative if you could use a weapon that consistently avoids the penalty and gains the bonuses.

 

That's the thing, though. I'm not even sure there's a single ranged weapon in the game that Arcane Archer's bonuses will apply to. The two obvious candidates got completely ruled out (assuming this is an intentional design decision rather than a bug), so it's very likely every other ranged unique won't work either.

 

There is one final thing that should probably be tested, but I'm no longer interested enough to do it myself. Would Arcane Archer's bonuses apply to Wizard/Druid elemental spells/shapeshifts? I wouldn't be surprised at this point if it's a no, but it's worth testing.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Saito Hikari

[AndreaColombo]

I’d test the Fury’s spiritshift ranged attack myself, but I’m out of town this week and cannot. Since it does Shock damage, it is a prime candidate—alongside, of course, the Wizard’s Minor Blights and Druid’s Rotskulls. If none of those work, I’d call bug. Hopefully a kind soul will check this.

 

Not generating focus or benefiting from Soul Whip are also potentially unintended.

[Saito Hikari]

I’d test the Fury’s spiritshift ranged attack myself, but I’m out of town this week and cannot. Since it does Shock damage, it is a prime candidate—alongside, of course, the Wizard’s Minor Blights and Druid’s Rotskulls. If none of those work, I’d call bug. Hopefully a kind soul will check this.

 

Not generating focus or benefiting from Soul Whip are also potentially unintended.

 

I'm not sure about the focus part. It appears to me that the Arcane Archer's abilities are coded as if they're the actual wizard spells, just delivered through a full attack with a ranged weapon instead of having a cast time. Damage from the full attack component does generate focus, but damage from the actual spell component doesn't.

 

It's already been established long ago that Cipher + other caster multiclass doesn't mesh at all for that reason.

[Sykid]

Would a Crusader with Fearless and Mental Fortress (resistance to confuse and shaken) still be affected by Tactical Dilema afflictions?

[Lamppost in Winter]

Tactician/Streetfighter looks like it could have a fun interaction, flavour-wise. When they're not Flanked (and meet the other requirements), they'll get Brillinat Tactician, but have increased recovery from Streetfighter. When they're Flanked, they'll have Shaken and Confused, but get the damage and speed bonuses from Streetfighter. Like they're a slow, methodical fighter who also panics and lashes out when they're under pressure.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Lamppost in Winter

[mepp22]

I was working on a Brawler Build before the new classes and it was already very strong but now I think a Tactician/Nalzpaca can be absolutely devastating. In the early game you can use Deadeye to get Interrupts on attacks while Rooting Pain also provides a steady stream of Interrupts (free Discipline). With Swift Flurry and later Heartbeat Drumming you will do a lot of hits very quickly, letting you basically spam fighter abilities. In the late game you can wield Slayers Claw (Improving Tenacious from Thunderous Blows to Energized) to interrupt on every Crit. If you are also wielding Scordeo's Edge you will quickly have 20 bonus accuracy and Crit/Interrupt all the time. You will then be able to Charge into a group of enemies use Clear Out hitting everyone with a chance of repeat attacks from Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming giving you a good chance of triggering Blade Cascade (with the high Int from Turning Wheel this is absolutely insane). Being able to get the Brilliant inspiration means you can spam any your abilities however you want. Wearing Gipon Prudensco makes you immune to Flanked; completely negating Tactical Dilemma and the Hearth Orlan Race (for the bonus Crit chance) you will want to attack enemies attacked by your party members anyways basically removing all the penalties of Tactician completely. 

The amount of synergy is ridiculous. I think getting Discipline on Interrupts is just too powerful with how easy it is to Interrupt.
Do Fighter abilities that Interrupt like Charge and Knockdown also refund Discipline?

Edited December 1, 2018 by mepp22

[Hoo]

Does Ancient's unique 3rd level spell, Wild Growth, affect to either Animal Companion or Spirit Companion of Ranger? As far as I know, Plant and Beast domains are mostly for Druid, except Binding Root of Ranger, so if the Wild Growth can be used for the Companion Ranger would be good candidate for multiclassing with the subclass.

[guildwriter]

So I've been testing Pernicious Cloud now that it's Pen is at 7 rather than at 0 in the current live version of the game.  Things I've found out: don't pass gas in King's Coffin.
 

 
Let's take a look see at ground zero before detonation.

 

 

 

 

Guess I really am lactose intolerant!  For reference, this radius is with a Int of 21 and no overseeing effects.  Multi class Assassin/Priest of Skaen.  Level 20.  Let's dive into some numbers.

 

 

 

 

Holy moly.  That is a lot of damage.  This is a good time to mention that the base damage is 9 with the following multipliers (+10% Rogue PL, +27% Might, +5% Infamous Captain).  This is why going to the gym is a good idea if you are going with a DoT focused build.  Note that this ability does benefit from assassinate, though I don't think it influences the penetration of the DoT during its lifetime.  It can overpen as I've seen it tick for 17 on low armor targets.  Casting it again on targets that have the debuff already will refresh the duration.

 

Anyways for 2 Guile that is a hell of a lot of value.  Corrode isn't the most common immune.  I need to test it more but I think it's now well worth the pickup.

 

Just stay away from your party.

[Anoregon]

I'm definitely interested in the potential of Blood Mage with any subclass of Monk. Blood Sacrifice's raw damage is probably good for a wound or two (on a non-pillar), and the overall mechanics of it seem to just mesh very well with both shattered pillar and potentially Helwalker. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Anoregon

[Takkik]

Blood mage are very promising at low level when you're spell starving, but I find they don't really scale well. Closer you're from lvl 20, a cipher can cast Brilliant on you and you get same result but without any disavantages. At level 20, multiclassed or not you have plenty of spells, and it's more critical/interesting to get back some specific spells than a random one. Blood magic work like a single tick brilliant inspiration. Great until you can get the inspiration.

 

I don't think the PL bonus from blood magic scale with your level. +1PL at high level feel very low. Have it scale with your wizard PL, or perhaps have a passive (that replace or stack) that give you a PL bonus based on your health pool (bloodied then near death). Closer to death, more powerfull is your magic.