Meh Tier Abilities at each Class?

[Hoo]

In aspect of variety of Class Build, it is desirable to improve several unused abilities. Actually, there are several less-attractive or definitely worse abilities imo. I'd like to discuss what abilities are meh on the current version.

 

Since I love Barb as the most favorite class, I'd say

 

- Threatening Presence

- Vengeful Defeat

 

are the worst or overrated Power Level abilities imo. I'd really happy to listen your opinions about the other classes. Of course, there might be abilities that are good before being upgraded, but unworthy after being upgraded.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Hoo

[Prince of Lies]

Threatening Presence is pretty useful. I find myself being over-levelled, so it allows for easy movement. 

 

I agree that Vengeful Defeat is pretty garbage. 

 

If we're talking about being at level 20, any active ability that applies a T1 afflictions (except maybe Confused).

 

Not a big fan of abilities that grant affliction resistance as there's lots of gear that can do the same. Afflictions can also be countered by inspirations as well. 

 

If you don't plan on getting up close and personal as a druid in wild shift, any of the Wildstrike upgrades are pretty terrible. 

 

Of course, there might be abilities that are good before upgrading, but unworthy for the upgrading...

 

I have no Idea what you mean by this. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Prince of Lies

[Purudaya]

 

Of course, there might be abilities that are good before upgrading, but unworthy for the upgrading...

 

I have no Idea what you mean by this. 

 

The rogue's Smoke Veil progression path is an example. The "upgraded" versions ditch invisibility in exchange for relatively mediocre AoE functionality (and the game gives zero in-text warning that players will lose the invisibility proc).

Edited October 25, 2018 by Purudaya

[Hoo]

Of course, there might be abilities that are good before upgrading, but unworthy for the upgrading...

 

I have no Idea what you mean by this. 

I'm sorry for my bad English, I'm not a native.

 

Sacred Immolation (before) and Sacred Sacrifice (after) might be a good example for what I mean, the Sacred Immolation would hardly say a good one though.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Hoo

[Prince of Lies]

Ooooh okay. Now I understand.
 

The rogue's Smoke Veil progression path is an example. The "upgraded" versions ditch invisibility in exchange for relatively mediocre AoE functionality (and the game gives zero in-text warning that players will lose the invisibility proc).

 
Yeah. I guess that makes sense. Distracted is pretty bad if you use Persistent Distraction. Pernicious Cloud isn't super-terrible though. Dev's probably did it so rogues would have some AoE ability.
 

I'm sorry for my bad English, I'm not a native.
 
Sacred Immolation (before) and Sacred Sacrifice (after) might be a good example for what I mean, the Sacred Immolation would hardly say a good one though.

No worries, I'm pretty tired, so that probably had something to do with it

 

Sacred Immolation got nerfed since PoE1... I guess you could still use Barring Death's Door though. I never really liked using it even in the first game. 

[Elric Galad]

Perplexing sap confuses me.

[Boeroer]

Withering Strike is bad. Too expensive. Luckily Toxic Strike is very good, but the base ability is bad.

 

I also don't think that Ring the Bell etc. is good.

 

Barbaric Blow is too expensive.

 

Power Strike is bad.

 

The new Ranger ability Hunter's Claw is not really bad but too tedious to play with.

 

Brutal Takedown is bad. Takedown Combo can be used for nice synergies, but Brutal Takedown is just a waste of Bond because for 1 Bond I can use an Accurate Wounding Shot - why should I send my pet to do a low dmg attack with ok PEN for the same cost?

 

Hobbling Shot: meh!

 

Uncanny Luck: meeeeh!

 

And lots more obviously...

 

Funnily enough I really like Vengeful Defeat (also did in PoE). In Deadfire there are several items which retaliate in an AoE when you go down. If you build around it a bit you can be a powerful suicidal Barbomb. I don't mean that you have to go down in every encounter, that would just be tedious - but for example I'm running a high AR, VERY low deflection barb right atm because I want to use Barbaric Retaliation to its fullest potential. I did some hours of testing and it's insanely powerful and fun (and comes so late unfortunately). However - naturally I will go down from time to time. And then Vengeful Defeat can often ereadicate the rest of the enemies. SHow them your middle finger.

 

It's great to add:

 

Effort: Full Attack AoE (like HoF) 

Cape: either raw dmg retaliation when getting crit or one that does a burn AoE or Shock AoE when going down (three different capes)

Armor: Effigy's Husk (raw AoE) or Godhammer Plate (burn AoE)

Vengeful Defeat (like HoF)

 

Even better when you get Shroud of Phantasm and let loose 6 low-hp copies of you that all do several AoE attacks + 2 Full AoE Attacks + Carnage when they go down. Supernuke basically. You have to let go of the AoE capes then of course.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Hastening Exhortation, even upgraded, is meh, especially as a Tier 8 ability.

 

If it costed 1 or added 15% Action Speed, it would be good enough (near insta-buff are nice).

 

 

HoF would be 1 rage too expensive if it wasn't for Heart of Blunderbuss abuses.

 

For spells, I don't know what to think about these High Tier Single Target Debuff :

- Hand of Berath (barely better than Shaken)

- Rust (okayish for certain targets)

- Entropy (given the absence of clear description)

 

They would sound a bit better with at least a small AoE.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Elric Galad

[Archaven]

Hastening Exhortation, even upgraded, is meh, especially as a Tier 8 ability.

 

If it costed 1 or added 15% Action Speed, it would be good enough (near insta-buff are nice).

 

 

HoF would be 1 rage too expensive if it wasn't for Heart of Blunderbuss abuses.

 

For spells, I don't know what to think about these High Tier Single Target Debuff :

- Hand of Berath (barely better than Shaken)

- Rust (okayish for certain targets)

- Entropy (given the absence of clear description)

 

They would sound a bit better with at least a small AoE.

I wish there's a melee equivalent that do similar. Why obsidian fancy gun so much?

[Hoo]

For spells, I don't know what to think about these High Tier Single Target Debuff :

- Hand of Berath (barely better than Shaken)

- Rust (okayish for certain targets)

- Entropy (given the absence of clear description)

 

They would sound a bit better with at least a small AoE.

Ya, many higher tier single target spells look like meh, I think those need either Bonus Accuracy like Flames of Devotion or having small aoe as you mentioned.

[Zerggerberg]

walking bomb is amazing, oh wait...

[Archaven]

I think the design of deadfire abilities are some sort of puzzle.

 

Many of them are there to confuse average gamers? If you pick the wrong ability you are mostly gimped in potd

[xzar_monty]

If you don't plan on getting up close and personal as a druid in wild shift, any of the Wildstrike upgrades are pretty terrible. 

 

 

Yeah, very much this. I had the druid NPC with me for some time, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I'd take any of the Wildstrike abilities. I suppose they can be useful if you specifically concentrate on that stuff, but even then I'm not sure.

 

Some other abilities that appear very, very dubious to me are in the Ranger development tree. There was one where the animal companion "plays dead" for some time and then appears reinvigorated or whatever. This is not an accurate description, but I'm pretty sure you can identify it, anyway. It looked utterly useless to me, I couldn't understand why it's there. And I'm perfectly willing to be proven completely wrong...

[xzar_monty]

I think the design of deadfire abilities are some sort of puzzle.

 

Many of them are there to confuse average gamers? If you pick the wrong ability you are mostly gimped in potd

 

I thought about this, too. Unless you browse the net, which I don't want to do, there are plenty of abilities where you can realistically have no idea whether they'll be useful or not. I mean, you can simply have no knowledge about the kind of challenges you're going to encounter, and your capacity to assess the usability of various abilities versus others is quite limited. I find that quite nice, actually, although you're probably right, too: if you play on potd, you probably should pick just the right things -- but unless you check out stuff on the net, you can't know what they are.

[Verde]

 

 

Of course, there might be abilities that are good before upgrading, but unworthy for the upgrading...

I have no Idea what you mean by this.

The rogue's Smoke Veil progression path is an example. The "upgraded" versions ditch invisibility in exchange for relatively mediocre AoE functionality (and the game gives zero in-text warning that players will lose the invisibility proc).

Damn didn't know that!

[Boeroer]

? What do I miss? You don't lose anything because you will keep Smoke Veil with its invisibiliy and gain a second ability that handels the upgrade. Lower teier abilites usually only get replaced by their upgrades if they do the same as the base ability AND some bonus on top for the same price. 

 

If Smoke Veil gets replaced by its upgrades then that's a bug.

 

By the way Pernicious Cloud (a possible upgrade of Smoke Veil) is very good. The only problem is the current bug that gives it 0 PEN. But this has been confirmed to be fixed in the next patch. 

[Archaven]

Withering Strike is bad. Too expensive. Luckily Toxic Strike is very good, but the base ability is bad.

 

I also don't think that Ring the Bell etc. is good.

 

Barbaric Blow is too expensive.

 

Power Strike is bad.

 

The new Ranger ability Hunter's Claw is not really bad but too tedious to play with.

 

Brutal Takedown is bad. Takedown Combo can be used for nice synergies, but Brutal Takedown is just a waste of Bond because for 1 Bond I can use an Accurate Wounding Shot - why should I send my pet to do a low dmg attack with ok PEN for the same cost?

 

Hobbling Shot: meh!

 

Uncanny Luck: meeeeh!

 

And lots more obviously...

 

Funnily enough I really like Vengeful Defeat (also did in PoE). In Deadfire there are several items which retaliate in an AoE when you go down. If you build around it a bit you can be a powerful suicidal Barbomb. I don't mean that you have to go down in every encounter, that would just be tedious - but for example I'm running a high AR, VERY low deflection barb right atm because I want to use Barbaric Retaliation to its fullest potential. I did some hours of testing and it's insanely powerful and fun (and comes so late unfortunately). However - naturally I will go down from time to time. And then Vengeful Defeat can often ereadicate the rest of the enemies. SHow them your middle finger.

 

It's great to add:

 

Effort: Full Attack AoE (like HoF) 

Cape: either raw dmg retaliation when getting crit or one that does a burn AoE or Shock AoE when going down (three different capes)

Armor: Effigy's Husk (raw AoE) or Godhammer Plate (burn AoE)

Vengeful Defeat (like HoF)

 

Even better when you get Shroud of Phantasm and let loose 6 low-hp copies of you that all do several AoE attacks + 2 Full AoE Attacks + Carnage when they go down. Supernuke basically. You have to let go of the AoE capes then of course.

 

 

Obsidian definition of "difficulty" giving player "meh" ability and bloated anemy stats *chuckle*

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

Obsidian definition of "difficulty" giving player "meh" ability and bloated anemy stats *chuckle*

 

An apt description.

[frogmoth]

Obsidian definition of "difficulty" giving player "meh" ability and bloated anemy stats *chuckle*

To be fair, the way they handled it in PoE I at least (more enemies and more harder enemies) on higher difficulties is more than other developers do in their games. I don't have a comparison in Deadfire, because i never played anything other than PotD, but if they handled it the same way there my statement stands.

Edited October 30, 2018 by frogmoth

[Frak]

 

Some other abilities that appear very, very dubious to me are in the Ranger development tree. There was one where the animal companion "plays dead" for some time and then appears reinvigorated or whatever. This is not an accurate description, but I'm pretty sure you can identify it, anyway. It looked utterly useless to me, I couldn't understand why it's there. And I'm perfectly willing to be proven completely wrong...

 

Ah, I can explain that one. The pet can get so locked up in engagements it cannot escape and will be knocked out. But if the pet gets knocked out, the ranger gets "bonded grief" debuff. The "play dead" is basically an aggro dump with healing and a way for the pet to stay alive a bit longer.

[Ancelor]

is there a commonly accepted mod that rebalances abilities that you guys recommend?

[Elric Galad]

is there a commonly accepted mod that rebalances abilities that you guys recommend?

 

Not heard of it, and it is unlikely to exist as long as the game keeps being updated.

 

 

You seem to think that the imbalanced abilities are intended by Obsidian and that a modder with good will could get a better result.

 

What usually happens is that dissatisfied modders buff the abilities they like, usually beyond measure.

​The result is as imbalanced as the original game, just translated in the direction of power creeping.

 

Balance requires time (so $$) and skill and, to be honnest, has not so much commercial value for single player game.

Obsidian simply does not have time for this. At least they are trying to address the most glaring issues.

And remember they are still working on it, so there's hope.

 

PoE1 was basically left in a pretty good state (bar rest spamming with Vancian caster which was a problem inherent to the gameplay based on BG2 nostalgia), at least all classes had good abilities.

 

 

EDIT : sorry if it sounds fanboyish. Maybe Obsidian could do better. But I just wanted to defend the view that balance is not easy to establish, even if it sounds "obvious" for us on forum. Consider that we would probably not agree on the solutions ourselves ^^ 

 

 

By the way, this is another issue with current multiclassing : if abilities have a semi-random level of power, the more abilities you have access to, the more powerful you can be.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Elric Galad

[Archaven]

PoE1 is really good. PoE2 unfortunately is still very buggy. There are still many bugs and even re-occurring ones

[Ancelor]

 

is there a commonly accepted mod that rebalances abilities that you guys recommend?

 

Not heard of it, and it is unlikely to exist as long as the game keeps being updated.

 

 

You seem to think that the imbalanced abilities are intended by Obsidian and that a modder with good will could get a better result.

 

What usually happens is that dissatisfied modders buff the abilities they like, usually beyond measure.

​The result is as imbalanced as the original game, just translated in the direction of power creeping.

 

Balance requires time (so $$) and skill and, to be honnest, has not so much commercial value for single player game.

Obsidian simply does not have time for this. At least they are trying to address the most glaring issues.

And remember they are still working on it, so there's hope.

 

PoE1 was basically left in a pretty good state (bar rest spamming with Vancian caster which was a problem inherent to the gameplay based on BG2 nostalgia), at least all classes had good abilities.

 

 

EDIT : sorry if it sounds fanboyish. Maybe Obsidian could do better. But I just wanted to defend the view that balance is not easy to establish, even if it sounds "obvious" for us on forum. Consider that we would probably not agree on the solutions ourselves ^^ 

 

 

By the way, this is another issue with current multiclassing : if abilities have a semi-random level of power, the more abilities you have access to, the more powerful you can be.

 

I'm not asking for an overhaul though.

Some things that can are blatantly imbalanced.

For example some abilities that cost too much.

[Elric Galad]

 

I'm not asking for an overhaul though.

 

Some things that can are blatantly imbalanced.

For example some abilities that cost too much.

 

 

Such as ?

 

​Power Strike ? It was buffed in the last true balance patch. They are probably thinking twice before buffing it again.

Same story for Hastening Exhortation.

 

Barbaric Blow ? Yup but 1 rage would be too less. So not easy fix either.

 

I don't think there are so many obviously broken abilities with obvious fixes at the moment.

Even the title of the thread suggest that they are more "meh" than "bad".

 

 

By the way, I'm arguing right now, but I'm pretty convinced that a Balance Mod made by fans would be a very good thing at some point.

Probably after the "final patch". Really, the main "problem" before making such a patch might be simply that the game is still evolving.

​It would need time and concertation on forums by the way.