POLL - MOST POWERFUL AND WEAKEST CLASS POST PATCH 3.00

[bigbazoopa]

Yeah i agree i have never been able to make a melee barbarian work. There are just so many other better options out there.

 

Look at monk for example they get +5 dex and +15% action speed with swidt flurry with no deflection penalty. I would take this over frenzy any day.

[Boeroer]

You forget that you can upgrade Frenzy two times.

 

The "problem" with Barb's (and whyso many drop them during early game) is that four things come together that impact the performance in the early game:

 

1. Low starting deflection: this is especially bad in the early game because your health pool and armor are low compared to enemies' dmg and PEN.

 

2. Even less deflection with Frenzy: see above. You will receive crits all the time.

 

3. Higher health pool means nothing at the beginning: usually it means you could take one additional hit - but since enemies crit all the time it doesn't matter at all. Higher health base works very well from the mid game but is rel. useless early on.

 

4. Low ACC of Carnage and not many crowds to fight: the performance of Carnage is bad in the early game because it not only does low damage and misses a lot but also because you don't fight that many crowds in the early game. It's dmg is also very low. Later on it becomes a great tool because it scales with Power Level (kind of secretly): +5% dmg per additional PL. Corpse Eater food counts. You can reach 100% weapon base damage as raw dmg - which is good. But in the beginning? Meh!

And if you want to counter your squishyness with a medium or large shield you will not hit anything with Carnage.

 

BUT: if you have some patience all those disadvantages start to dissolve. Stacking some armor and adding Thick Skinned on top makes a Barb sturdy through damage reduction so that crits from enemies are not that painful anymore. Crits become a smaller portion of enemies' damage at the same time (but still lead to PEN).

Being Robust through Stalwart Defiance works rather nicely with the +5 MIG and +5 CON and the more levels you get the more impactful the higher health pool becomes (don't drop CON on a melee Barb!). Carnage suddenly can be superhandy if you meet high AR foes and it scales very well.

 

So, in my opinion those are the reasons why lots of people don't like Barb's: the first impression and experience is bad. Like on PoE1 basically - same reasons.

 

But if you really play them (had three Barbs in different combos during full playthroughs until now) you will discover that they are really good - especially on PotD where there are more enemies with higher AR. I especially like to multiclass them with casters because Frenzy + Bloodlust + Blood Thirst + Rapid Casting is just awesome as well as Lion's Sprint. That really helps to land debuffs.

 

One if the best combos I played so far were Nalpasca/Berserker by the way. Will be putting out a build at some time (just finished the playthrough two days ago).

 

The thing that I don't like on Barbs: compared to other attack abilities Barbaric Blow + upgrades is rather weak. Too expensive and the Power Level entry is too high (doesn't scale as high as let's say Crippling Strike or FoD).

 

Ranged single Barb with Mortars or Watershaper's Focus or Frostseeker (my current Serafen build) is gamebreaking good at higher levels. But of course the early game is important and there the Barb kind of stinks.

 

I like the Savage "all-in" approach, but I think they deserve some means of making them a bit sturdier at the beginning. +1 AR or a flat health bonus that doesn't scale or something like the "numb" enchantment (10% dmg reduction) of Pukestabber when using Frenzy.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[bigbazoopa]

I don’t think anyone has forgotten anything. So what class do you think is weakest and why?

[Boeroer]

Then you disregarded it?

 

Weakest class? No idea. I still need to carry all of them in different combos through some playthroughs to make well-founded assertions.

 

Also because there are so many combinations of classes abilities now that it's pretty hard to contain the comparison. For example only looking at single classes.

 

So far there seems to be no clear winner or loser. If I should voice a fuzzy suspicion I'd say that Ranger and Fighter are on my personal bottom list so far.

[baldurs_gate_2]

I don’t think anyone has forgotten anything. So what class do you think is weakest and why?

You should have asked, strongest / weakest class for solo play.

[Haplok]

 

Well, I can't believe such a flawed comparison came from you, Boeroer.

What exactlt are you talking about? "Flawed comparison"? I think you didn't understand what I was trying to say.

 

I was just comparing two seperate effects that give you higher attack speed while paying for that with lower defenses. Sneak Attack is not part of the Streetfighter's Heating Up as Carnage or Bloodlust is not part of Frenzy.

 

Frenzy as a standalone ability was depicted as bad - while nobody says that about Heating Up. So I compared those two distinct abilites and showed that Frenzy is at least as good as Heating Up (leaving aside that you are even slower if you're not heated up).

 

Where is the flaw in that comparison?

 

 

I meant its flawed, because it disregards the rest of abilities (and damage potential) the classes bring to the table.

 

But also on the fundamental level, in this comparison you've missed half of what "Heating Up" does: sneak attack might not be exclusive to Streetfighters, but a +50% sneak bonus is exclusive for the "Heating Up" effect. Particularly early on, that is HUGE (since you get it from level 1 and can trigger reliably in like every fight).

[Boeroer]

You are right. I completely forgot that Heating Up also gives you a bonus for Sneak Attack. Sorry for that. :oops:

 

Nevertheless: I didn't want to compare Barbarian to Streetfighter, I just wanted to compare Frenzy to Heating up since Frenzy as an ability was questioned. Other abilites don't matter in that direct comparison of those two abilities because I wanted to show that Frenzy is comparable to Heating Up. So my point was that if one wants to complain that Frenzy is bad because it makes you squishy then one would also have to admit that Heating Up makes you at least as squishy. I don't know how I can make myself more clear.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[Archaven]

@boroer in my opinion should not just look at one combination of multi class. what I see with current system is that is very difficult to balance.

 

One multiclass combo can be devastating. Another could be weak and boring.

[Boeroer]

I agree. It's even so that a certain class is great in a special multiclass combination but meh in another. How do you want to rate that class then?

 

Very complicated.

[rheingold]

Single class barbarians are pretty good. Not wizard good but still pretty potent. I ran with a sc two handed berserker. Not min/maxed. And he was awesome at high level. Only issue was he ran out of resources quickly. Not sure if the ability that is supposed to give back rage upon killing is actually triggering? Didn’t feel like it. At any rate as mentioned in Elrics thread on sc martial classes, it is a problem not unique to barbs. Other than that there is very little wrong with the high level abilities they have. And great passives. Overall fun and effective. They just need more rage.

Edited October 10, 2018 by rheingold

[Boeroer]

Yes. The biggest reason for Rage starvation is Barbaric Blow in my opinion. It's too expensive. Also the very non-granular resource costs of abilities (1, 2, 3) don't allow for fine tuning.

 

Rogues have some abilites that are too expensive as well (but they also have one for 1 Guile which makes up for this).

 

If we had a resource pool of 100 instead of 10 and the abilities would cost 10 or 20 or 30 instead of 1 or 2 or 3 you could tune stuff like Barbaric Blow down to 15. Atm you can't.

 

And that leads to a situation where a Paladin with 10 Zeal can deliver 10 Eternal Devotions (or Shared Flames) while a Barb with 10 Rage can only deliver 5 Barbaric Blows. I don't think that Barbaric Blow is twice as good as FoD.

 

Barbaric Smash (refund on kill) does work. But it is flawed on Corpse Eaters: for a Corpse Eater it costs 3 Rage but you'll only get a refund of 2.

 

Also the refund (or 0 recovery) on kill is flawed on itself: you want to make sure that you kill. This nearly always leads to a lot of overkill which lowers the effectiveness of the ability.  

[rheingold]

Yeah, though it’s not just barbaric blow, most of the actives seem overpriced. You use frenzy, savage defiance, dragon leap for mobility and one shout for daze and HOF and there’s not much rage left. Of course a wizard has cast one spell and nuked everything...

It’s not to suggest that barbarians are underpowered, just that adding more rage would not make them op, it would just make them more fun to play and ensure they didn’t end up auto attacking towards the end of fights.

[Archaven]

I agree. It's even so that a certain class is great in a special multiclass combination but meh in another. How do you want to rate that class then?

 

Very complicated.

Very complicated indeed. I probably go to balance the multiclass itself instead of single class. For example if swashbuckler is broken then fix that multi class but it will not affect the fighter or rogue or any other combinations.

 

Regarding skill resources, I agree some skills are really expensive and not worth investing.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Archaven

[Ancelor]

to be fair by default some class combinations were always going to be less effective than others.

In the single class question now, how is the Ranger pet?

I remember complaints in the beginning that it died too easily

[Boeroer]

In terms of dps they are better now because OBS increased the attack speed significantly. But it's nowhere near as it was in the last iterations of PoE where its base dmg scaled with level. In Deadfire Animal Companions "only" get a scaling additive dmg bonus instead of the multiplicative one that scaling base dmg was.

 

I never thought that they die too easily. Some of them have regeneration (Boar), higher defenses (Antelope) or higher AR (Bear) and if you don't use them as your main tank (as some players seem to try) they are fine. Of course the higer dps ones (e.g. Wolf, Lion) die sooner than the sturdier ones. If you use them as flankers you will be fine, especially if picking Resiliant Companion. Ghost Heart's summon can be used to tank because it's just 1 Bond for a rel. sturdy but disposable summon that can even have some nice talents.   

Edited October 11, 2018 by Boeroer

[Ancelor]

nice...may someone could mod the scaling damage thing

[Elric Galad]

Arguably, there is no true obvious "weakest class" at the moment.

All classes have enough perks to be worth a slot in a party (Priest has decent AoE buffs, AoE affliction removal and decent AoE damages spells at high level).

 

That doesn't mean Priest, Barbs, etc... couldn't get a couple of improvements (too many meh spells and Barbaric Blows cost a bit too much).

 

I also think that Martial Single Classes should get a bit more ressource but that's another debate.

 

 

For strongest classes, Wiz seems to be the clear winner, and Monk gets the silver medal.

The ability to change Grimoire is incredibly versatile on its own (even if not "gamebreaking" IMHO. EDIT : as Boeroer said, I agree it is indeed a bit gambreaking for Multiclass) and Empowered Missile Slavo (and maybe meteor swarm) feels a bit OP too.
Monk is excellent in general and its Tier 9 is borderline OP.

​Probably a slight nerf could be a necessary evil for these 2 classes.
 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

As a multiclass wizard you don't need to pick a single spell at lvl-up if you carry a good selection of grimoires with you. Put everything into the other class and pick some passives if you are forced to pick a wizard ability.

 

You can still cast all spells you want while having lots of other awesome abilities. Played a Sage like this - all the monk goodies with the spells from the wizard. Other casters need some cool trinket effect, too. I wonder why we don't see priest-only trinkets that add some spell uses or something. This can't be hard to do.

[Elric Galad]

I wonder why we don't see priest-only trinkets that add some spell uses or something. This can't be hard to do.

 

I think it's the idea behind Priest and Druid subclass design : all of them give 1 spell per PL by default. You don't have to pick a single spell ability to be able to cast and use all your spell PL slots.

Of course it is far worse than Grimoire. Grimoire belongs to another league.

 

Druids/Priests get Spiritshift/Radiance at "level 0".

Wiz doesn't get a "level 0" ability. Grimoire swapping has probably be designed as their level 0 ability. And it is far stronger than other caster's.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Elric Galad

[Bugged Wolf Companion]

Out of curiousity: Wizard is voted highest because of minolettas missiles?

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

Greater adaptability through Grimoures and buffs that make you very tanky, as well as having lots of dps. 

[lpro]

As a multiclass wizard you don't need to pick a single spell at lvl-up if you carry a good selection of grimoires with you. Put everything into the other class and pick some passives if you are forced to pick a wizard ability.

 

You can still cast all spells you want while having lots of other awesome abilities. Played a Sage like this - all the monk goodies with the spells from the wizard. Other casters need some cool trinket effect, too. I wonder why we don't see priest-only trinkets that add some spell uses or something. This can't be hard to do.

I loved playing as a Battlemage for the reasons you explain: I was able to put almost all skill points into the Fighter and just carry Llengrath's Grimoire.  Wizard MC is very enjoyable...I can't imagine any use for Priest MC.

 

 I complained about Grimoires having no equivalent for casting classes except Wizard, and I asked for Priest-only trinkets, early after the launch. It is outrageous because the absurdly overpowered Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry has no equivalent for any other class. Trinkets were a great way to make melee classes more viable relative to casters, but definitely Priests and other casters deserve special trinkets ASAP.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by lpro

[Boeroer]

Assassin/Priest of Skaen is very enjoyable for me.

[baldurs_gate_2]

Shaman - Berserker / Priest could be good. Because it has nearly the same buffs as a Thaumaturge (Wizard / Priest).

 

Berserker - Tenacious +5 MIG and Hardy +5 CON, Lion's Sprint - Nimble +5 Dex, Blessing - Insightful +5 PER, Litany for the Spirit - Acute +5 Int.

 

With BDD and Salvation of Time and as a Human, you can be always at bloodied or near death, without the fear to die.

 

Wizard / Rogue probably the strongest atm and Ranger / Druid weakest.