Obsidian Based Class Revisions (Buffs, Nerfs, Tweaks)?

[Stardusk78]

In POE over time there were many tweaks and changes during the course of the game. It seems this round there are fewer or maybe I am missing something? I lack the mechanical expertise some people have on these forums so I suppose this is an appeal to those people; I invoke the spirit of the Lord God Boeroer here. Which classes and/or weapons need buffing, nerfing and tweaking in your expert opinion?

[grasida]

There were massive changes in 1.1 and a few in 1.2. The big disappointment for me is that 2.0 didn’t really change anything. I think a lot of 1.1’s changes were hastily done, and perhaps obsidian is aware of that and waiting for the dust to settle a little.

 

I think the big thing that everyone wants fixed is how full attacks influence weapon style balance. It’s hard to justify two handers or single-weapon style because almost every martial character can spam cheap full attacks and those are far, far better for characters with two weapons.

 

Otherwise there are obviously some abilities that really need to be buffed and possible some overall skill sets that need to be tweaked. Paladins are really good, for example, but barely anyone pays any attention to their exhortations. Rogues are strong, but they have some real dud powers, like sap and exchange places. Lots of priest spells are designed around aoe inspirations being very valuable, but it seems few people actually care about that, so the priest spell list in general could use some work. Ciphers still have a few really bad spells, too. I think some fighter abilities are really overpriced. And so on.

[Dorftek]

Yeah fighter abilities are overpriced, priests have a ton of crap spells over many PLs and their good ones are all cramped up into the same few PLs.

Druids have too many AoEs that target Fortitude and Fortitude is freaking over buffed on almost all enemies. A kith soldier on Potd can have 56 deflection and 103 Fortitude for example.

I think spells should get acc from weapons like martial skills, even if it doesn't make much sense.

 

On items I think a lot of the 5% and 10% chance to inflict bla bla bla needs to be either buffed or replaced. Bardattos luxury 10% chance to sicken? Very impressive .

And that corrode dipped Morningstar? What is it like 3dmg per 12sec and 5-10% chance to do something on tic? Even a plain battle axe with modal turned on feel more powerful then that.

 

Speaking of modals. Any modal that gives pen is a complete waste because it does not stack with other pen buffs such as Tenacious or potion of piercing strikes. Both being better options them a weapon modal wich provides less pen and also comes with a penalty.

I think all modals should be changed to be considered passive abilities, it would fix the problem right away.

 

Armor and pen need a smoother curve imo, as of right now u need to go all out on stacking armor using both passives and gear to reach high enough number for it to even show any difference. So feels like u either go all the way or just don't bother at all.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Dorftek

[thundercleese]

There were massive changes in 1.1 and a few in 1.2. The big disappointment for me is that 2.0 didn’t really change anything. I think a lot of 1.1’s changes were hastily done, and perhaps obsidian is aware of that and waiting for the dust to settle a little.

 

I think the big thing that everyone wants fixed is how full attacks influence weapon style balance. It’s hard to justify two handers or single-weapon style because almost every martial character can spam cheap full attacks and those are far, far better for characters with two weapons.

 

Otherwise there are obviously some abilities that really need to be buffed and possible some overall skill sets that need to be tweaked. Paladins are really good, for example, but barely anyone pays any attention to their exhortations. Rogues are strong, but they have some real dud powers, like sap and exchange places. Lots of priest spells are designed around aoe inspirations being very valuable, but it seems few people actually care about that, so the priest spell list in general could use some work. Ciphers still have a few really bad spells, too. I think some fighter abilities are really overpriced. And so on.

Powerstrike in particular was very disappointing. I thought "Oh man, 4 Discipline? This thing must really do some damage!" Never used it again.

 

But yeah you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Sap I think isn't necessarily bad (bonus damage, two afflictions, 1 guile), it's just a bit boring for such a late pick. It's also IIRC the only Rogue skill that's not a full attack, which is probably the other reason no one takes it. Full attacks/the disparity between weapon styles is definitely no. 1 priority imo.

 

Also yes, armour system is way out of whack - you either penetrate and tear them to pieces in seconds, or don't and it's like slapping a boulder.

Edited August 15, 2018 by thundercleese

[Boeroer]

Dude... "God Lord"? 

 

Which classes and/or weapons need buffing, nerfing and tweaking in your expert opinion?

I think first of all there should be a balance around Full Attacks: give two handers max dmg roll on Full Attacks and give single one handers increased crit damage on Full Attacks or so.

 

Then I would like to convert Backstab into a fixed raw dmg bonus that scales with Power Level. Not an additve weapon dmg modifier and not a multiplicative one like a lash. Atm Backstab favors heavy hitters like two handers and arquebuses etc. which is weird. A weapon-independent bonus would finally make using a dagger, club or stiletto useful when backstabbing. It would be even cooler if the dmg bonus would be higher with light weapons and/or if heavy weapons and armor would lower your stealth skill - but for starters a flat but PL-scaling raw dmg bonus would be fine.

 

Amor/Penetration still has too much influence in my opinion. I also find it bad that in PotD not only types of enemies changes and numbers of enemies and stats like health, accuracy and defenses get raised but also AR(!). Why is that? It wasn't so in PoE and for a good reason: It means that certain weapons are worse for PotD - which I find really bad. You have a more narrow choice of weapons for PotD if you want to play efficiently. For example great sword (the modal also doesn't help at all) have a really hard time on PotD while suddenly estocs are great (if you prefer two handers).

 

Those are the things I would want to see balanced/changed first.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Boeroer

[arkane83]

Amor/Penetration still has too much influence in my opinion. I also find it bad that in PotD not only types of enemies changes and numbers of enemies and stats like health, accuracy and defenses get raised but also AR(!). Why is that? It wasn't so in PoE and for a good reason: It means that certain weapons are worse for PotD - which I find really bad. You have a more narrow choice of weapons for PotD if you want to play efficiently. For example great sword (the modal also doesn't help at all) have a really hard time on PotD while suddenly estocs are great (if you prefer two handers).

 

 

This is my biggest beef with PotD. It's not just weapons, but also subclasses and builds that we are pigeonholed into thanks to insane AR. Playing a fighter striker? You better pick devoted or you will hit like a wet noodle. Playing a barbarian? Zerker every day for the same reason. Does your character have talents that increase pen? Take them or literally underpen the majority of enemies.

 

I get that PotD is about full knowledge of game mechanics and synergy, but at of right now you either use specific weapons, talents or subclasses or you will make the mode much harder for yourself.

[MaxQuest]

Which classes and/or weapons need buffing, nerfing and tweaking in your expert opinion?

I find that many weapons were very strong at the release, but overnerfed in v1.1.

Few quick examples:

• Scordeo's Trophy:
  • Opening Barrage: 15% -> 5%.

    ​Yes 15% was insanely broken with fighter's old Charge ability. But now with 5% the speed build-up is kinda slow, taking into account how fast the fights are. I would buff it to 7-8%.

• Ball and Chain:
  • Irrepressible: +100% Damage -> +15%.

    That bonus is additive. So it's bassically: On hostile effect expiration briefly deal +2.5 bonus dmg. Provided that it doesn't proc often even +50% is balanced enough.

  • Indomitable: 25% Chance -> 10%

    It's kinda hard to make a build around "10% chance to Recover immediately when Critically Hit in Melee" because it is too unreliable. Make it at least 20%.

• Eccea's Arcane Blaster
  • Elemental Shot: Fire 40% Chance -> 10%.

    Elemental Shot: Force 50% Chance -> 20%.

    Elemental Shot: Frost 20% Chance -> 5%.

    Elemental shot effects are too weak/unreliable now. I would buff 10%/20%/5% -> 33%/33%/15%. Not to mention that the fact that this pistol deals raw damage is not enough to compensate for such base damage.

Also I'd take a look at some inherent weapon properties.

For example compare Accurate (+5 acc) with Arcing Blows (10% of Grazes converted to Hits).

If you had accuracy equal to enemy deflection:

- 15% graze, 50% hit, 1% crit

 

After equiping corresponding weapon you get:

- 15% graze, 50% hit, 6% crit (with accurate) (0.5 * 0.15 + 0.5 + 1.25 * 0.06 = 0.65)

- 13.5% graze, 51.5% hit, 1% crit (with flails) (0.5 * 0.135 + 0.515 + 1.25 * 0.01 = 0.595)

 

Arcing Blows property needs 30-40% graze-to-hit conversion in order to be as good as Accurate.

 

---

As for classes...

 

Fighter:

• Subclasses:
  • Devout: good as is
  • Unbroken: good as is
  • Black Jacket: in addition to quicker weapon switching, could also get Deep Pockets
  • Pure Fighter: in my oppinion is a bit weaker than subclasses, since you can work around their cons, but really benefit from their pros. On the other hand I wouldn't change this for now.

• Abilities:
  • Into the Fray is not impactful enough. Would increase the Dazed duration from 5 to 7s. And buffed Lower their Guard: instead of -10 AR for 1 attack: -7 AR for 4s.
  • Power Strike cost is too damn high. 3 discipline with possibility to refund 1 on crit, looks more promising.

Cipher:

• Overall:

  Tbh I find Ascendant to be the only strong type of cipher right now.

  That's why I would reduce his Draining Whip focus generation bonus by ~25%. But at the same time would buff cipher damaging powers by ~15% and would increase accuracy or reduce cast time/recovery on a several echo/deception powers.

• Subclasses:
  • Soulblade: it may look cool, but it's basically a subpar trickster. It asks for some splash damage to be good enough on PotD. For example: using Shred powers leaves a 5s debuff on affected enemies; and when you use Soul Annihilation it hits all marked targets in 2.5m aoe, besides the primary target.
  • Beguiler: 20% extra range is weak when so many powers have 5m range. What beguiler needs is extra accuracy with deception powers. Otherwise ascendant can do the same thing, but better.
  • Ascendant: good as is
  • Pure cipher: in theory is a cipher that would cast low and medium-costed Echo powers. And in practice that's not efficient enough because of their recovery times. Solution?: reduce recovery on echo stuff that costs 50 focus and below; especially defensive buffs.

• Powers:
  • Mind Wave: a bit weak as it is now. Prone is no longer a disable with duration. And even interrupt doesn't make it worth enough in practice. Since it's an utility power, it could also inflict a 3s confuse or 2s dazed on hit enemies except the primary target.
  • Whispers of Treason: it was godly in PoE1, it was good in Deadfire before the nerf. And now it's just decent. But being decent is not enough to get cast. My current run is the first one out of 6 cipher play-throughs were I didn't even learn it. All in all I would nerf it's duration to 11s, but would increase it's range to 8m and speed-up it's cast time from 3s to 2s.
  • Valorous Echo: never casted/learnt it. Enemies don't interrupt enough. The recovery is too long. And pure cipher is not good enough. This really needs a 1.5s recovery max.
  • Tenuous Grasp: this is not good enough for debuffing, but can be situationally ok when used against a target that has INT and RES inspiration. The thing is that in practice you usually just don't give a damn. Yes it may take 1-3s longer to kill a resolute target, but your cipher won't be sitting on 4s recovery. I would either make Grasp also inflict Distracted, or would reduce it's recovery time to 2s.
  • Mental Binding: 6s paralyze + 10s immobilize -> 7s paralyze + 7s immobilize. And 3s recovery time.
  • Fractured Volition: how about reducing the duration 20s->15s, but inflicting Enfeebled instead of Weakened? Otherwise it needs shorter recovery
  • Wild Leech: is weak and boring. Make it fun! E.g: steal one random inspiration from the enemy. If it has none: you lose one random inspiration and affect the target with tier-3 affliction of the same type.
  • Soul Ignition: this power is completely superseeded by Disintegration. Change the targeted defense from Fortitude to Will and we are golden.
  • Detonate: at the moment it only detonates if cast on an enemy that is Near Death. Make it detonate if it just kills the enemy.
  • Defensive Mind Web: it was redundant in PoE1. And it is weak in Deadfire. Increase the break counter from 1 to 3 hits. Or let it be 10 hits total on anyone in the party, and after that the web breaks completely; but while it's active it also allows to share perception.
  • Haunting Chains: is kinda weak for a rank 9 power. Let it act like Concelhaut's Crushing Doom. I.e. casting haunting chains places a 12s debuff on target that pulses every 6s and affects the target with Terrified and Hobbled for 12s.

More classes to come...

 

---

Btw, besides weapons and classes, I find that full-attacks, racials, AR system and too a smaller degree: attributes do also require fine-tunning.

 

First of all: Full Attacks

As suggested many times: make full attacks when wielding one weapon roll max damage. So:

- if you DW: you hit with both weapons.

- if you don't DW (i.e. you use 2H, 1H or 1H&Shield): you hit with that one weapon, but hard.

 

Alternatively it's ok, if there are even 4 variants (but it will be harder for new players to memorize):

- FA DW: hit with both weapons

- FA 2H: max damage roll

- FA 1H: bonus damage on crit or bonus accuracy

- FA 1H&Shield: either same as with 1H, or some utility, like: lower enemy penetration by 1 for 4s, lower enemy accuracy by 10 for 3s, etc.

 

 

Racials, especially Moon and Fire godlike ones need scaling. Also we were told that all godlikes will have 2 racials. But that's a discussion for a separate thread.

 

 

AR system makes it easy to tank without shields whatsoever, because you can already reduce incoming damage by x4, provided that you have AR by 4 or more points higher than enemy penetration.

Tbh there is no quick solution to this. But changing the threshold from 100%/75%/50%/25% to 100%/75%/50%/35%/25% or 100%/75%/55%/40%/30%/25% and increasing deflection given by shields by 4 points could be the first step.

Edited August 16, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

Amor/Penetration still has too much influence in my opinion. I also find it bad that in PotD not only types of enemies changes and numbers of enemies and stats like health, accuracy and defenses get raised but also AR(!). Why is that? It wasn't so in PoE and for a good reason: It means that certain weapons are worse for PotD - which I find really bad. You have a more narrow choice of weapons for PotD if you want to play efficiently. For example great sword (the modal also doesn't help at all) have a really hard time on PotD while suddenly estocs are great (if you prefer two handers).

 

This is my biggest beef with PotD. It's not just weapons, but also subclasses and builds that we are pigeonholed into thanks to insane AR. Playing a fighter striker? You better pick devoted or you will hit like a wet noodle. Playing a barbarian? Zerker every day for the same reason. Does your character have talents that increase pen? Take them or literally underpen the majority of enemies.

 

I get that PotD is about full knowledge of game mechanics and synergy, but at of right now you either use specific weapons, talents or subclasses or you will make the mode much harder for yourself.

 

 

 

Yeah, it's also a big issue for casters because it's a lot harder to raise spell penetration. I find at high levels it's more efficient to combusting wounds + [something that does a large number of non-penetrating hits, like mind blades or minoletta's], rather than to actually break through the armor directly. 

 

 

 

 

• Tbh I find Ascendant to be the only strong type of cipher right now.

  I would reduce his Draining Whip focus generate bonus by ~25%. But at the same time would buff cipher powers (specifically: damage, accuracy or cast time; but not! duration) by 15-20%.

•  

 

I agree, in at least general terms, with everything above except this; given that the change to per encounter casting makes focus a hindrance rather than a help, I'd just as soon get to max focus on my Ascendant ASAP. The focus mechanic isn't a benefit, it's a hindrance, and most of the time it's just getting in the way of doing the fun stuff, the necessary ante you have to pay before you can really start to play. As such, I'd be fine with it being even easier to raise focus. I'd probably be ok with doubling the starting focus every Cipher gets at the start of each encounter. 

 

As to details, I'd suggest something like changing Mindweb to have a chance to break on damage or hit -- the problem right now is that a single AOE damage effect like Chill Fog can effectively wipe it, even if it only grazes.

 

For most other cipher powers below level 7 the answer is generally "needs shorter cast and recovery time". For the stuff level 7 & up, ciphers aren't alone in needing an additional positive balance pass on their top end powers (I'd also suggest adding one or two more powers at each level, to bring them up to parity with the spell availability for druids and priests and chanters).

Edited August 15, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[grasida]

Into the Fray is not impactful enough. Would increase the Dazed duration from 5 to 7s. And buffed Lower their Guard: instead of -10 AR for 1 attack: -7 AR for 4s.

 

Soulblade: it may look cool, but it's basically a subpar trickster. It asks for some splash damage to be good enough on PotD. For example: using Shred powers leaves a 5s debuff on affected enemies; and when you use Soul Annihilation it hits all marked targets in 2.5m aoe, besides the primary target.

 

Wild Leech: is weak and boring. Make it fun! E.g: steal one random inspiration from the enemy. If it has none: you lose one random inspiration and affect the target with tier-3 affliction of the same type.

 

Soul Ignition: this power is completely superseeded by Disintegration. Change the targeted defense from Fortitude to Will and we are golden.

 

First of all: Full Attacks

As suggested many times: make full attacks when wielding one weapon roll max damage. So:

- if you DW: you hit with both weapons.

- if you don't DW (i.e. you use 2H, 1H or 1H&Shield): you hit with that one weapon, but hard.

 

Alternatively it's ok, if there are even 4 variants:

- FA DW: hit with both weapons

- FA 2H: max damage roll

- FA 1H: bonus damage on crit

- FA 1H&Shield: either same as with 1H, or some utility, like: lower enemy penetration by 1 for 4s, lower enemy accuracy by 10 for 3s, etc.

 

You make a lot of point and I agree with most of them, but I want to comment on a few.

 

-Into the Fray: I think it would be fine for tanks with lots of engagement if it only cost 1 discipline. Maybe the worry there is that it would be spammed for damage, but then the damage could be changed to a dot, a damage received debuff or just removed.

 

-Soul Blade: I don’t think it’s that bad or terribly in need of changing except that ascendant is clearly better, but I think that’s more a problem with ascendant. Your idea sounds really cool though, if a little too strong.

 

Wild leech: it really needs to be improved. Here’s an idea I had randomly yesterday — it negates an affliction at random on an enemy to give you a tier 2 inspiration of the corresponding type. That way ciphers could give themselves any type of inspiration, but at at a high opportunity cost.

 

Soul Ignition: one thing to note is that this is a “smart” DoT while disintegrate is a stupid one, meaning it scales positively with intellect and disintegrate scales negatively. For a cipher with very high intellect, soul ignition is probably better. That’s not to say I disagree with you, though. Having it target will would be better still.

 

Full attacks with single weapon style: I’ve written before that I don’t really agree with a critical hit damage bonus. Single weapon style is already the weakest style. Such a bonus would have to be so high to be worthwhile that it would encourage scumming the start of a fight for opening crits.

 

If we’re going to make 3 or 4 separate effects on full attacks (which I also don’t agree with) I think single weapon style should get more accuracy. The builds that care enough about accuracy to take single weapon style probably gain enough from it that they’re more worried about maximizing crit rate or avoiding misses entirely than they are about the diminishing returns in damage granted by accuracy. Right now, the builds that care the most about crits, monks and skalds, are better served by using full attacks supported by large accuracy and hit-to-crit bonuses than they are by single weapon style. A higher crit damage bonus would be unlikely to change that. Also, an accuracy bonus for full attacks with single weapon style would create a more realistic range in which single weapons are more reliable at applying afflictions than dual wield.

[AndreaColombo]

Subbing.

[mosspit]

You know all those "On Melee Crit do X" effects? Remove the melee restrictions. Meaning to say the effects should proc if the wearer is being crit by a ranged weapon attack or spells. And the effects should trigger at a min rate of 33%.

[1TTFFSSE]

Obsidian should test the following very simple combo:

 

Evoker

 

Grimoire of Vaporous Wizardry/1injury+Rekvu's Fractured Casque 

Firethrower's Gloves + Pet Otto starcat + anything else

 

Deleterious Alacrity of Motion->Infuse with Vital Essence->(Empowered) Meteor Shower->Minolletas Missile Salvo->Minolettas Missile Salvo->Wilting Wind/Piercing Sigil 3x->ability refund via empower point (if not used previously)->repeat

[MaxQuest]

 

Tbh I find Ascendant to be the only strong type of cipher right now.

I would reduce his Draining Whip focus generate bonus by ~25%. But at the same time would buff cipher powers (specifically: damage, accuracy or cast time; but not! duration) by 15-20%.

I agree, in at least general terms, with everything above except this; given that the change to per encounter casting makes focus a hindrance rather than a help, I'd just as soon get to max focus on my Ascendant ASAP. The focus mechanic isn't a benefit, it's a hindrance, and most of the time it's just getting in the way of doing the fun stuff, the necessary ante you have to pay before you can really start to play. As such, I'd be fine with it being even easier to raise focus. I'd probably be ok with doubling the starting focus every Cipher gets at the start of each encounter.

 

My current problem with ascendant is that when I reach max focus, I don't really feel that ascended. I can spam powers, but the result is not really better than what I can do with evoker or fire-priest.

 

At the same time while Ascendant actually can somewhat compete, especially when multiclassed with helwalker, streetfighter or barbarian (for bloodthirst), other subclasses can't.

That's why I proposed to increase the powers' damage.

 

As for 150%->125% Draining Whip specifically for Ascendant - it's a first non-stingy nerf that came to my mind. Something to compensate for the overall powers buff.

At the end of the day if a player wants to have max focus asap in an important fight he will have it, as there are means at his disposal, like:

- Storm Rune Shot from Thundercrack

- Wild Barrage from Kitchen Stone

- the +% action speed from Dragon's Dowry is also nice

 

As for non per-rest means there are full-attacks with Fire in the Hole (in MH) and Xefa's Empirical Explication/Scordeo Trophy (in OH).

With Cutthroat Cosmo, Acina's Tricorn, double effect from Sure-Handed Ila and streetfighter/lightning_strikes/bloodthirst/time_parasite you can fire really fast.

Add Shared Flames, Baubles of the Fin and optionally Xoti's Lantern with Aefyllath... and you get max focus in 1-2 full attacks or in 3-6s ^^

Edited August 15, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

My current problem with ascendant is that when I reach max focus, I don't really feel that ascended. I can spam powers, but the result is not really better than what I can do with evoker or fire-priest.

 

 

 

Yeah, I suspect it's partly because of the lessened importance of CC in Deadfire --- so much of the Cipher's role is CC, and a lot of the balance changes between I and II were made to diminish that over-reliance on CC, but the net result is that CC based characters are just less effective. 

 

The main class-envy I get is vs wizards just because of the flexibility of the grimoire mechanic and the length of their power roster. There are so many wizard spells in this game and they can swap around endlessly; any random wizard with almost any build can pick up the Martial Masteries spellbook for 9k gold and instantly outmelee even a melee-specialized cipher. 

 

How many times have you Ascended and then just spent the whole time spamming Pain Block on the rest of the party because that was literally the most useful thing you could do?  Meanwhile, Tekehu takes care of that in a single cast .  . .

 

The root issue, to me at least, seems to be that the overall Cipher power list is still relatively weak and relatively short, mostly due to "legacy balancing" from the first game where CC was more potent and the focus mechanic more useful. A lot of cipher restrictions (most buffs only working on party members but not the ciphers themselves, for example) only really make gameplay sense as ways to counterbalance things that were strengths in the first game but are now weaknesses. Why on earth is Valorous Echoes single-ally-target, for example? 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[MaxQuest]

-Into the Fray: I think it would be fine for tanks with lots of engagement if it only cost 1 discipline. Maybe the worry there is that it would be spammed for damage, but then the damage could be changed to a dot, a damage received debuff or just removed.

I like the idea of reducing the discipline cost, and compensating it with lower damage.

 

I find this to be an utility ability, as it allows to:

- bring an enemy closer (such that a squishy debilitator could place a short range cc)

- daze

- lower enemy AR - and that's something I'd like my party dps'ers to benefit from; not the fighter himself (because a dps fighter will just use Penetrating Strike instead)

 

-Soul Blade: I don’t think it’s that bad or terribly in need of changing except that ascendant is clearly better, but I think that’s more a problem with ascendant. Your idea sounds really cool though, if a little too strong.

Numbers and aoe can be tweaked)

 

Wild leech: it really needs to be improved. Here’s an idea I had randomly yesterday — it negates an affliction at random on an enemy to give you a tier 2 inspiration of the corresponding type. That way ciphers could give themselves any type of inspiration, but at at a high opportunity cost.

Do like.

Player can use pulsing afflictions (like Vissage).

Or time and land the leech right before an affliction expires on target.

 

Soul Ignition: one thing to note is that this is a “smart” DoT while disintegrate is a stupid one, meaning it scales positively with intellect and disintegrate scales negatively. For a cipher with very high intellect, soul ignition is probably better. That’s not to say I disagree with you, though. Having it target will would be better still.

Are you sure that Disintegration gets worse with higher INT?

There was a missconception in PoE1 regarding Disintegration because of it's tooltip effect and description. But it's damage was actually increased by INT.

And afaik so it is in Deadfire. With high MIG, INT and PL you can deal 900+ raw damage with it.

 

Full attacks with single weapon style: I’ve written before that I don’t really agree with a critical hit damage bonus. Single weapon style is already the weakest style. Such a bonus would have to be so high to be worthwhile that it would encourage scumming the start of a fight for opening crits.

That's a point.

 

If we’re going to make 3 or 4 separate effects on full attacks (which I also don’t agree with) I think single weapon style should get more accuracy. The builds that care enough about accuracy to take single weapon style probably gain enough from it that they’re more worried about maximizing crit rate or avoiding misses entirely than they are about the diminishing returns in damage granted by accuracy. Right now, the builds that care the most about crits, monks and skalds, are better served by using full attacks supported by large accuracy and hit-to-crit bonuses than they are by single weapon style. A higher crit damage bonus would be unlikely to change that. Also, an accuracy bonus for full attacks with single weapon style would create a more realistic range in which single weapons are more reliable at applying afflictions than dual wield.

Full Attacks with 1H getting bonus accuracy - looks a bit moot. Because many FA abilities already have accuracy bonus, and players will be asking if these bonuses stack or not.

 

Well, definitely like having only 2 separate effects then

Hit with both weapons if DW; or roll max damage otherwise.

 

---

Yeah, I suspect it's partly because of the lessened importance of CC in Deadfire --- so much of the Cipher's role is CC, and a lot of the balance changes between I and II were made to diminish that over-reliance on CC, but the net result is that CC based characters are just less effective.

Fair point

 

How many times have you Ascended and then just spent the whole time spamming Pain Block on the rest of the party because that was literally the most useful thing you could do?  Meanwhile, Tekehu takes care of that in a single cast .  . .

Not a single time

In current state of the game, ascendant for me is a damage dealer. He deals damage. Let Lifegiver, Wayfarer or Helwalker/Priest (that already tossed his DoTs) handle the healing part)

 

The root issue, to me at least, seems to be that the overall Cipher power list is still relatively weak and relatively short, mostly due to "legacy balancing" from the first game where CC was more potent and the focus mechanic more useful.

Again, fair point)

That's why I suggested to increase the damage of damaging powers; and additionally buff those listed.

Edited August 15, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

Again, fair point)

That's why I suggested to increase the damage of damaging powers; and additionally buff those listed.

 

 

Yeah, I get the sense they don't want to directly increase the durations or strength of the CC powers, though, so that only leaves so many options. The casting/recovery times could be decreased (helps ascendants more than anyone else), the accuracy numbers could be increased (functionally increasing average durations), or the areas of effect could be increased. Or the damage components could be improved.

[Stardusk78]

So everyone feels that Druids and Priests are in a good spot?

[MaxQuest]

^ They also require fine-tunning. It's just too long to write in one go.

[Stardusk78]

^ They also require fine-tunning. It's just too long to write in one go.

I am mainly a Priest guy so whenever you are inclined, I would enjoy reading.

[thundercleese]

Nerf Wild Surge friendly fire. Or just change/remove Serafens subclass.

[heldred]

Personal thoughts after 300 hours in P2:

 

1) certain multiclass combinations are significantly more powerful than other combinations. Not to start a nerf storm, but once you understand the mechanics of POTD and which variables are important, you realize which classes deliver the most in those key categories.

 

2) so many wasted skills in classes that players never take (outside of pure role playing reasons), due to high costs or simply ineffective compared to other abilities.

 

3) beat to death in other posts, but two weapon style is vastly superior due to full attack mechanics (greater weapon enchants to a lesser extent). Furthermore, many weapons and/or modals are ineffective in POTD (if you care about efficiency of your build).

 

4) spell cast times for mediocre spells (Priest) should be reduced and while we are at it, why do priests and druids have to spend level-up points in spells, while Wizards basically get a free pass with grimoires?

 

5) recurring theme, but armor is an all-or-nothing proposition. Either you build for armor to be effective or just fight fast and light. The only time I consider the middle ground is if the enchants of the armor are helpful for a specific build.

Edited August 15, 2018 by heldred

[grasida]

 

-Soul Blade: I don’t think it’s that bad or terribly in need of changing except that ascendant is clearly better, but I think that’s more a problem with ascendant. Your idea sounds really cool though, if a little too strong.

Numbers and aoe can be tweaked)

And, in fact, could stand to be changed anyway, since the tooltip for soul annihilation is lying. The more I think about your idea the more I like it, even though I think soul blade is okay, balance wise. But gameplay wise people often complain that soul blade’s discount on shred spells is mostly pointless and that it advertises itself as a hybrid spell/melee damage dealer, but ends up playing as a strict melee class with a few AoE debuffs. Shred spells “marking” enemies to be damaged by soul annihilation would solve both of those problems and and add interesting complexity to soul blade’s play.

 

Are you sure that Disintegration gets worse with higher INT?There was a missconception in PoE1 regarding Disintegration because of it's tooltip effect and description. But it's damage was actually increased by INT.And afaik so it is in Deadfire. With high MIG, INT and PL you can deal 900+ raw damage with it.

I haven’t tested it extremely thoroughly, but I’m fairly sure. I played around with a seer with 1 int in the console to see how it interacts with takedown combo and what kind of damage per tick I could get. But I don’t remember if I tested with different int values. However, it does noticeably more damage per tick on a graze and noticeably less on a crit. I think this is the case with any DoT that lists it’s total damage over duration in the ability description as opposed to the DoTs that list damage per tick.

 

Regardless, that’s not a good distinction form soul ignition because there’s no way you could know about it without specifically testing.

Edited August 16, 2018 by grasida

[MaxQuest]

But gameplay wise people often complain that soul blade’s discount on shred spells is mostly pointless and that it advertises itself as a hybrid spell/melee damage dealer, but ends up playing as a strict melee class with a few AoE debuffs. Shred spells “marking” enemies to be damaged by soul annihilation would solve both of those problems and and add interesting complexity to soul blade’s play.

Exactly)

It would also make soulblade much more useful during ship battles with a lot of enemies. At least it would help to avoid thoughts of the "I'd rather have an aoe ascendant right now" sort.

 

I haven’t tested it extremely thoroughly, but I’m fairly sure. I played around with a seer with 1 int in the console to see how it interacts with takedown combo and what kind of damage per tick I could get. But I don’t remember if I tested with different int values. However, it does noticeably more damage per tick on a graze and noticeably less on a crit. I think this is the case with any DoT that lists it’s total damage over duration in the ability description as opposed to the DoTs that list damage per tick.

Definitely gonna check it on the weekend then.

 

---

I am mainly a Priest guy so whenever you are inclined, I would enjoy reading.

Here we go

 

Priest:

• Subclasses:

  Overall: getting spells from other classes is very useful, since in a way you multi-class not 2 classes but two and a half; and depending on the synergy between them player can get pretty nice results.

  Now let's take a look how many cross-class spells/abilities each subclass gets:

  • Priest of Berath: 4 druid spells
  • Priest of Eothas: 1 druid spell
  • Priest of Magran: 4 evocation spells
  • Priest of Skaen: 3 rogue abilities
  • Priest of Wael: 1 conjuration and 5 illusion spells
  No wonder many find priest of Eothas to be the least flexible option. And priest of Skaen kinda viable but hard to make an optimal build with (as the player can multi-class into an actual martial class instead)

  At the same time, priest of Wael has the most variants when it comes to multi-classing. He is great for a debilitator type of character; and also for a plethora of other builds that just need those extra defenses.

  That's why I would make a few adjustments to these bonus spell selections.

  • Priest of Berath: looking at Touch of Rot and Rot Skulls, this subclass is mostly meant for DoT focused characters. I.e. those who would increase MIG and INT, and ofc have decent PER to actually apply their effects. That's why Holy Meditation looks a bit unfitting from building point of view; and would definitely switch it with Autumn's Decay or Insect Swarm. And Spreading Plague with Infestation of Maggots.
  • Priest of Eothas: 8 out of 9 predefined spells are all about buffing and healing. And it makes you wonder, why Sunbeam is there.

    This subclass requires either more spells that deal [damage + affliction] in order to support such sunbeam archetype, or get rid of this spell and go full buffer/healer instead. The second way is easier and doesn't clash with Wael. That's why I would swap Sunbeam with Nature's Vigor.

    Also: having just 1 non-priest spell doesn't differentiate enough this subclass from other kinds of priests. Thus would end up with: 1. Nature's Vigor; 2. Withdraw; 3. Nature's Balm; 4. Circle of Protection; 5. Cleansing Wind; 6. Minor Intercesion; 7. Ressurection or Nature's Bounty

  • Priest of Magran: It's weird that if I want to create a fire priest... Berath and Wael are supperior options. Reason being: the most damage is dealt via DoTs. Ray of Fire and Flame Shield don't look all that amazing, and are the spells that I'll rarely cast. Not to mention that casting Torrent of Flame as rank 7 spell instead of Cleansing Flames just not going to happen.

    I would much prefer the following spell selection:

    1. Fan of Flames; 2. Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon or Combusting Wounds; 3. Fireball; 4. Shinning Beacon; 5. Wall of Flame or Torrent of Flame; 6. Pillar of Holy Fire; 7. Cleansing Flames

  • Priest of Skaen: first of all ask yourself how would you build such a priest in order for him to be competitive and not getting trumped by possible alternatives? Why would a fighter multi-class with Scaen and not assassin/streetfighter/trickster instead? Is bleakwalker/skaen on par with bleakwalker/devout or bleakwalker/berserker? Atm the only evident synergy is between skaen and assassin because of Shadowing Beyond at rank 5; and that's not really enough.

    Thus suggesting the following selection: 1. Cripling Strike; 2. Spiritual Weapon; 3. Sneak Attack; 4. Confounding Blind; 5. Shadowing Beyond; 6. Eliminating Blow; 7. Minor Avatar

  • Priest of Wael: comes with 5 wonderful wizard spells, a less wonderful Confusion (which was really strong in PoE1 and is meh in Deadfire) and Iconic Projection which just doesn't fit here (because Wael selection is focused on defences and cc; all being effective even with dumped MIG). Also Wael violates the following principle: a priest cannot get wizard spell earlier than wizard. And I am referring to Arcane Veil here, which is a rank 2 spell.

    Thus suggesting the following selection: 1. Spirit Shield; 2. Arcane Veil; 3. Curse of Blackened Sight; 4. Llengrath's Displaced Image; 5. Minor Grimoire Imprint; 6. Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment; 7. Gaze of Adragan

• Regarding deities/subclasses: check an updated list here
• Spells:

  First I'll list the spells I like - i.e. the ones looking at which I'm thinking, hmm, maybe I can find a spot for priest in my party?:

  • Suppress Afflictions: losing control of your tanks or dps'ers is always unpleasant, this spell gives you time to deal with it.
  • Withdraw: shenanigans stuff
  • Consecrated Ground (before nerf): it's an AoE Heal over Time, meaning that with decent PL, MIG and INT and can result in a decent amount of total healing. The -28% nerf substantially reduced it through, and it feels like it's asking for multi-classing with Helwalker now.
  • Shining Beacon: bread and butter spell for a damage dealing priest. It has 20% lower base damage than in PoE1 and you can't cast 5 of them, but it's still good enough to want a fire priest.
  • Triumph of Crusaders: enables a glass-cannon dps party member with decent self-sustainance. Although a bit fades away in late game, provided that health pools increase faster than healing scaling
  • Devotions for the Faithful (before the nerf): was a very strong spell. +20/-20 acc in medium aoe can hardly be under-appreciated. Now through it's just a shadow of former glory. It's still decent, but the fact that it is an active effect, makes it less useful when you have other +acc actives, like a paladin with Zealous Focus
  • Circle of Protection: on average, it's like reducing the total damage your party takes by ~30% and even more on characters with already relatively high defenses
  • Barring Deaths Door: shenanigans stuff and eternal love of streetfighters, berserkers, death godlikes..
  • Salvation of Time: buffs prolongation and shenanigans stuff
  • Cleansing Flames: respectable damage, and double dps on all party DoT. Superb spell.
  • Storm of Holy Fire: do love the periodic damage. As it also results in respectable total damage amount.
  • Spark the Souls of the Righteous: high damage potential if you have enough summons or dominated enemies.
  • Hand of Weal and Woe: high damage, high healing.
  • Symbol of X: great all around.
  The rest of the spells, I personally find less useful. Either because of cast times, or because they share the same rank (and they fight for the slot), or because of the nature of the fights.

  And encounter design imho is the reason why priest inspirations aren't that impactful. Let's take Holy Power: AoE Strong inspiration could be fight breaking, if there was a numerous amount of fights were enemy throws a stun with huge radius and accuracy. In this case priest could run to his party and unstun them. But since I haven't encountered such scenario, it's just a measy give +5 MIG to all in a tiny aoe, and do nothing for 7s.

  Holy Power would also be useful if there were a lot of high-AR enemies, that would also toss quick Dazed aoes. And the only way to penetrate them would be to get rid of this might affliction. But again, don't really remember that happening. Not to mention that Holy Power has only 1.5m radius, and it would require a squishy priest to run into close range and risk getting focused; or if it's an armored frontline priest, enjoy a quite long recovery. Thus I would rather look at other means to get rid of Dazed. It could be liberating exhortation, or frenzy, some fast stuff.

   

  At the same time, if all these inspirations had faster cast/recovery time, it could potentially be unpleasant to play vs enemy priests, who could potentially quickly cancel a lot of hard-cc effects. What gives?

  - either increase the +stat on all inspirations from +5 to +7, to make them more desirable from +stat/+defence pov; not just as anti-cc

  - or increase the aoe

  - or let them give some bonus +acc or +defense

  - or give 1 inspiration per-rank for free? So these would end to be just situational spells

  - or prayers and litanies could give one tier better inspiration than they currently do

   

  So, here are the changes that I would make:

  • Interdiction: either increase duration from 7 to 8s; or increase the area; or make it 1.5s cast time
  • Restore: this spell doesn't scale as fast as health pools with level. Could get +15% per PL?
  • Holy Power: 1.5m radius -> 2.5m radius, and +5% damage
  • Barbs of Condemnation: target takes damage, and all enemies in 1.5m aoe get -7 to all defenses
  • Halt: immobilize -> suspend beneficial effects and immobilize; or immobilize and reduce range by 50%
  • Holy Meditation: 2.5m -> 5.0m aoe
  • Repulsing Seal: 4.5s cast + 3.0s recovery -> 1.5s cast + 3.0s recovery
  • Pillar of Faith: 4.5s cast + 3.0s recovery -> 3.0s cast + 4.0s recovery and 2.5m radius
  • Warding Seal: 4.5s cast + 3.0s recovery -> 3.0s cast + 3.0s recovery
  • Consecrated Ground: 5hp/3s -> 6hp/3s
  • Divine Mark: 4.5s cast + 3.0s recovery -> 3.0s cast + 3.0s recovery; optionally could deal 20% less damage, as it doesn't compare with DW Full Attacks, and is taken more for that -25 deflection malus, but being mia for 7.5s is a bit too much;

    Or instead of casting time reduction; it could deal 20% more damage in order to be somewhat competitive dps-wise

  • Despondent Blows: 1.5m radius -> 2.5m
  • Litany for the Body: 3.0s cast + 3.0s recovery -> 1.5s cast + 3.0s recovery | and Hardy -> Nimble and Fit (rank 4 has a lot of good spells, having this litany provide just hardy, is not enough provided the opportunity cost)
  • Litany for the Spirit: 0.5s cast + 3.0s recovery -> 1.5s cast + 3.0s recovery | and Acute -> Resolute and Smart
  • Triumph of Crusaders: 80 -> 100 health restored
  • Circle of Protection: 4.5s cast + 3.0s recovery -> 3.0s cast + 4.0s recovery
  • Searing Seal: 4.5s cast + 3.0s recovery -> 3.0s cast + 3.0s recovery
  • Champion's Boon: 3.0s cast + 3.0s recovery -> 1.5s cast + 3.0s recovery
  • Minor Avatar: +20% damage with weapons -> +25% damage with everything; +40 max hp -> +80 max hp
  • Crowns for the Faithful: 1.5m radius -> 2.5m; ar as suggested by mosspit: provide tier 2 inspirations instead of tier 1
  • Rank 9 spells: in addition to their effects, add +10s to Minor Avatar duration if active.
  And last thing: looking at the possibility of building a soft debuffing priest (wael with interdiction, despondent blows/divine mark, devotions and so on), the rank 2 looks to lack an affliction inflicting spell. Some kind of "Berath's Grasp": sicken all enemies in 2.0m aoe would be really handy. This would enable a low-might debilitating priest that dazes, blinds, and indirectly deals damage by lowering enemy constitution.

Edited August 21, 2018 by MaxQuest

[thundercleese]

I think I can answer why Eothas gets Sunbeam; he is the "God of Light", the "Morning Lord", etc. From a gameplay perspective you are right of course though.

[mosspit]

I think Crowns of the Faithful is a little too ineffective as compared to its PoE1 incarnation. To me, I would rather change the inspirations it bestow to Tier 2. Or give additional Mind or Body resistances to the party for the buff duration.