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@Ansalon, the problem with your statement "Why is putting the armors in to a comparative category a problem? There are clear cut cases where some armors are just straight up bad. Why is there a need to pretend that all items in this game is equally viable." is that you are likely to find a great many people in this forum who outright disagree with your notion that such clear cut cases exist, or at least that the cases you find clear cut are such in the first place.

 

As an example, take your trash tier, which contains Deltro's Cage. You look at it and see "+2 All Electricity Power Levels could have been great on Fury (Druid subclass) but 55% recovery time makes it garbage", which means that you've dismissed a very, very, powerful armour for some kinds of druids out of hand due to being overly concerned with the recovery penalty.

 

Deltro's Cage is probably the best armour in the game if you want an electric demigod in your party. It is not an armour that (in your words) "can go up or down a tier depending if you use them in a specific build", it is an armour that goes right to the top when used correctly and is pretty poor when not.

 

Somebody with just a bit more experience in the game would say, "increased power levels is one of the most powerful properties on any item for activated abilities so long as the user makes good use of it, and +2 electricity screams druid, and a free Relentless Storm via enchant is good, and PL bonuses stack so that stacks with +3 electricity power from Darryn's Voulge on a druid, and there are a few other sources of electricity damage in the game on uniques, some of them very powerful (and best of all, they can be gotten in the early game)", would try it out, and would discover that running around with +5 PL to electricity is absurdly powerful. The recovery penalty isn't nice, but we can get around that, mostly. This can work nicely for a Fury or a Fury/Evoker, but while powerful it feels a bit clunky even with maxed dex and Abraham pet. Still, heavily armoured caster that doesn't cast that often, but when he does, it hurts, is a good start.

 

And you can take it in other directions, e.g. multiclassing with barbarian, fighter or monk for recovery bonuses, which is how we got Ascaloth's Fate Testarossa Fury/Helwalker build. Or how about the inspired genius that got us the very powerful God of Storms Watershaper/Stormspeaker Tekehu companion build? Druid electricity spells and T1, T3, and T6 electricity offensive invocations? (and healing, and frost spells/invocations too).

 

I hope you will agree after reading this that dismissing some items as clear cut cases of being straight up bad isn't as easy as all that, and that in at least one case you have erred in that regard in your list.

Moved Deltro's Cage up to tier A based on your feedback. Willing to discuss if it deserves higher placement, but at 55% recovery im reluctant. I will more then readily agree that there are probably multiple synergies I haven't taken into account for with my writeups. I even pointed this out in the preface to the guides. I hope you are willing to concede that it is wortwhile to make an attempt at a draft for a list, then adjusting it based on feedback.

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Did you even read my post?

Patinated Plate with any of the pets that reduce armor recovery like Cosmo or Abraham (there is at least 2 more) will have less than half a second more recovery than light armor, as long as your dex is decent.

(which it should be if you're so worried about recovery)

My current Solo Paladin/Monk has 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery time with Patinated Plate, if it was a fighter it would be 0.2 less recovery, if I used light armor it would be 0.2s less.

If it was a fighter wearing light armor it would only be 0.3s saved, this is called diminishing returns.

 

With light armor there will be no enemy on upscaled PotD which has no pen and gets 75% damage penalty, with patinated and a tanky class like paladin there wil be a lot of enemies doing 2 damage per hit.

This has nothing to do with tanks, but the pets having more favourable returns the heavier the armor and diminishing returns the lighter the armor.

Do you consider the 0.3s attack and 1.6s recovery of my patinated plate wearing char slow? How much faster ar your chars wearing light armor?

You are not representing the full reason why the recovery time is so low. It's because monks offer a ton of action speed bonuses, and you don't point out what weapon you use. With the information you are giving me you could be comparing the action speed of a one handed dagger, with multiple self buffs plate user to a two handed Great Sword, no buffs, robe wearer.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but that value is outside of combat and has absolutely zilch to do with monk abilities.

I hoped that would have been clear when I talked about how a fighter would get slightly better recovery.

Any class with patinated plate, 18 base dex and abraham gets this attack speed.

I'm using a flail with the monk shield (counts as dual wielding for speed bonus) but the weapon type would once again not change the recovery by more than 0.1 - 0.2s, diminishing returns are quite a big thing once you have high dex. (which you should have if you're that concerned about recovery.)

 

If you are presenting me with incomplete information I can only make educated guesses on what you have in mind.

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This is my last reply to you, since this is going nowhere:

I presented complete information (I never said I was counting monks in combat values), but you assumed I didn't.

You didn't list what dex you were using,what weapons, or what other effects you were taking into account in your original post. I probably should have prefaced my assumptions and asked more follow up questions. If you don't want to discuss this further thats fine.

Edited by Ansalon

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Miscreants is one the best because that 5% chance to ignore attack, and the fact that you get it very early with no effort at all...that should be considered.

Nomads is one of the best armors for solo i think

Theres vatnir robe too, very very good for glass cannon dps

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Nomads is one of the best armors for solo i think

What about Nomad Brigadine which provides immunity to disengagement attacks?

 

But guys, didn't you read the guide? It's the worst armor in the game!

You're not supposed to use armor for armor or deflection, and tanks never need to leave engagement. Even though Nomad's provides all of that at once. 

 

You could be stacking action speed and sucking down healing potions like a real pro!  :facepalm:

 

Yeah, I kid. It's the only heavy armor I use regularly. (Reckless Brig is good too, though)

Edited by Parasol_Syndicate
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Magran's fire casts light in Dark Places...

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Nomads is one of the best armors for solo i think

What about Nomad Brigadine which provides immunity to disengagement attacks?

 

But guys, didn't you read the guide? It's the worst armor in the game!

You're not supposed to use armor for armor or deflection, and tanks never need to leave engagement. Even though Nomad's provides all of that at once. 

 

You could be stacking action speed and sucking down healing potions like a real pro!  :facepalm:

 

Yeah, I kid. It's the only heavy armor I use regularly. 

 

chugging pots while ignoring deeps...I like it!

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By the way - and that Ansalon got right but was critized - Miscreant's Leather is the best dps armor. That's because if you use Cutthroat Cosmo (or Abraham) the recovery penalty of the leather will be smaller than the 10% speed bonus you get from it. That means that you will be faster with Miscr. Leather + Cutthroat Cosmo than with a robe (+Cutthroat Cosmo ;)). AND you will have more AR as a bonus on top.

My claim was supposed to be this item is the one who has the best mix of survivability/recovery time for a dpser. I'm assuming most people understand that 0% recovery of a robe is faster then 10% recovery of this armor ;)

 

 

 Did you miss Boeroer's point? If you choose the right pet, a character with Miscreant's Leathers will be faster than one with a robe. 

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I was speaking in defense of Ansalon in this case which he might have missed. :)

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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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By the way - and that Ansalon got right but was critized - Miscreant's Leather is the best dps armor. That's because if you use Cutthroat Cosmo (or Abraham) the recovery penalty of the leather will be smaller than the 10% speed bonus you get from it. That means that you will be faster with Miscr. Leather + Cutthroat Cosmo than with a robe (+Cutthroat Cosmo ;)). AND you will have more AR as a bonus on top.

My claim was supposed to be this item is the one who has the best mix of survivability/recovery time for a dpser. I'm assuming most people understand that 0% recovery of a robe is faster then 10% recovery of this armor ;)

 

 

 Did you miss Boeroer's point? If you choose the right pet, a character with Miscreant's Leathers will be faster than one with a robe. 

 

I might be under the wrong impression but I thought armor recovery penalty capped at 0% and couldn't go into the negative? If that is the case this is both new to me and very useful information, but as Boeroer pointed out its a point in favor of Miscreant's Leather.

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The penalty can’t go negative, but the recovery boost on Miscreant’s leathers is just a normal recovery boost, not a reduction in armor recovery penalty. So a fighter with armored grace and Abraham gets 0 penalty from leather armor, then enjoys a 10% reduction in recovery time as a property of the armor.

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What about Nomad Brigadine which provides immunity to disengagement attacks?

Maybe I'm undervaluating but the way I see it it is almost always a better option to move the other character close to the tank, then moving the tank closer to the other character. Of course thats assuming that other class isn't currently engaged or has no way to break an engagement. To me it feels like more of a quality of life thing then something that is inherently powerful.

Edited by Ansalon

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^ Regarding under-valuating immunity to disengagement attacks: Nomad's Brigandine is great on a Goldpact support/tank. Because if he runs to heal someone with Lay on Hands he doesn't get hit - and thus keeps Golden Enmity for longer (as it breaks after 7 hits).

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No one wants to hear it (again) but +10 deflection on a high resolve character makes Nomad's a nice pinch hitter for the price of one enchantment. 

I tend to agree it's Even Better for fighters with armored grace, but that doesn't make it bad armor. 


Magran's fire casts light in Dark Places...

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Gipon Prudensco: - Trash tier, Due to "No Fool, I" Enchantment not being functional. Biggest disappointment in the game.

 

 

 

 

Dumb question probably, but how long has this been the case?  I used this on my Shadowdancer run in 1.2 and it worked fine - I had consistent stacks of +10 Defl. and +20 Reflex.  When did this change?

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Good to know.  In that case, I'd say Gipon Prudensco is criminally under-rated - should be right up at the top with the other big 4.  +25 deflection vs. disengagement attacks, +10 deflection, +20 reflex, steadfast inspiration to open combat, immunity to flanked.  

 

Can't see why we'd put the Casita Samelia's up there and not Gipon Prudensco. 

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Good to know.  In that case, I'd say Gipon Prudensco is criminally under-rated - should be right up at the top with the other big 4.  +25 deflection vs. disengagement attacks, +10 deflection, +20 reflex, steadfast inspiration to open combat, immunity to flanked.  

 

Can't see why we'd put the Casita Samelia's up there and not Gipon Prudensco. 

List is pretty old. Can't promise I will keep it updated for patches but I will do my best. Think it was No Fool I that was bugged when i made the list, and kinda forgot about it. Moved Gipon to Tier B. Casita can reach quite insane deflection in the lategame if you stack intimidate.

Edited by Ansalon

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The deflection boost from casita is not as good as immunity to flanked on a tank that’s typically likely to be surrounded. Of course you can get immunity to flanked from other sources and casita provides more AR than gipon prudensco, but overall is think it’s really odd to rank gipon prudensco as weaker when it’s light armor that’s stacked up with tons of extremely powerful defensive enchantments.

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My constructive feedback would be a formatting change from tiers to use info:

Armor:

Pro:

Con:

Typical Uses:
Known Synergies:

 

Example:
Armor: Effigy's Husk (Robe)
Pros: 0 recovery, possible to enchant immunity to Perception, or Might, afflictions; starts at superb (saving adra ban) +3 slash armor

Cons: Lower AR due to robe, looks terrible (unless you are going for a necronomicon look)
Typical uses: non-streetfighter Blunderbuss builds
Known synergy: Eder dual blunderbuss + perception immune + blunderbuss modal


Then your feedback would flood in with people adding to the typical use and synergies, instead of being "why did you rank x at y, that's my fav, you noob!"
 

Edited by Theosupus
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You forgot "Vengeful Defeat + Effort + Mantle of the Seven Bolts" as synergies for Effigy's Husk. ;)


Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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