Josh:"The Watcher don't have particular reason to fight Eothas."

[misterjimmy]

 

[daven]

Nothing

Edited August 1, 2018 by daven

[bugarup]

I'm with him here. F‡ck the Campbellian Monomyth forever into Pet Sematary of Dead Horses. 

[M4xw0lf]

Letting the game end with a fight against the 100m high invulnerable colossus that rips your soul out of your body if you come near it would have been idiotic.

Edited July 25, 2018 by M4xw0lf

[hermamora]

I totally agree with the writer here. And not because it's his story and he has a right to narrate it the way he wants. Monomyth was a gorgeous and innovative way to deconstruct any story when it was first released to public. This way we found out how most stories humanity told are actually the same hero's journey. It's the oldest and most understandable myth of all time but we don't have to limit ourselves to the same old narrative. 

Game industry is relatively new form of art raised from pure entertainment and still clinging to it with all those "battle royales". Also it's very expensive and take many man-hours to complete the project unlike writing a book and similarly to the modern cinema so most developers won't take risks to write something progressive or unusual in fear of financial meltdown and censorship. 

Modern writer in game industry has to navigate between "write something simple so everybody would like it" and "write something flavorless so censorship won't ruin my life", this is very difficult and Obsidian with their backers' support has unique position to write something different like the did this this time. 

 

Personally, I like the way ending was written. Usually writer presents us with powerful antagonist we can't defeat without special something and this usually immortal godlike villain can easily destroy castles/cities/planets/worlds. We ran away, admire villain's power and somehow can defeat him/her in the end. This is very unsatisfying for the reader/player/watcher and Josh found a way to avoid this embarrassing situation with defeating actual god by remembering who god actually is. Eothas isn't Voldemort neither he's Cory from DA:I, and by all means he's the main hero of the story while Watcher is... a Watcher, spectator and apostle. Regarding him turning into new god (considering gods are monstrosities here) I don't think US censorship will swallow it. Only Japanese From Software pulled this trick in secret ending of Bloodborn.

[aksrasjel]

I'm not buying Josh's argument actually - at least not in full. He refuses to adhere to safe Campbellian fantasy tropes, he doesn't want to be subversive about it, he's not interested in "big confrontations" - fine, that's his story. What do you propose instead?

The problem is that "I'm not doing an obvious story trope" is only half of the solution. Where is he going with this? What does he want his story to be? Does he come up with some fresh and interesting ideas instead that neither conform to fantasy cliches nor subvert them? Beacuse otherwise we might be left with a whole bunch of "nothings" in place of the story IMO.

Edited July 25, 2018 by aksrasjel

[uuuhhii]

other than death wish

no reason at all

[Amentep]

Seems to me that some players wanted Eothas to be like Sarevok, Irenicus, or Amelyssan from the BG series, but he was actually the Lady of Pain from Planescape instead.

 

...

 

Perhaps they should have let players attack him and have them always get TPK in one-shot (perhaps even with a PST Lady of Pain style cutscene) and acknowledge the folly of that expectation.

[handsomenat]

I agree with Amentep. Also I never tried attacking Eothas but according to wikia there's an ending where Watcher attacks Eothas and dies immediately, absorbed by him.

[Phenomenum]

If some players want to fight against giant gods, i would propose them to play some JRPG's - they have a lot of fancy stuff like this.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Phenomenum

[Tarlonniel]

I wasn't expecting to fight Eothas. I was expecting to stop Eothas, whether via influence, the help of the other gods, or whatever cool mechanism the game developers came up with.

 

There are other games where the bad guy wins in the end and the player can't stop them. If that's the story the devs want to write, that's their choice, but I don't find such a game very satisfying.

[aksrasjel]

On that note: Why I agree that physical Megazord style confrontation with Eothas would have been ridiculous (if hilarious to watch), I don't understand why we simply cannot talk him out of destroying the Wheel - beacuse it really seems like a bad idea. It can make for as good a confrontation as anything. Think Transcendent One or F1 Master/FNV Legate Lanius. I'm not buying the argument that he's omnipotent and "how would you convince a god" for a second. Make a final confrontation a philosophical debate about the fate of the kith robbed of the Wheel - and actually let the player win the argument. Gods were shown to be flawed, kith-created constructs, that make dumb mistakes all the time - and Deadfire hammers it home constantly from the very beginning. And this includes Eothas himself. And that would actually give player some semblence of agency. Wasn't the whole point of sending the Watcher after Eothas their supposed "connection" and the fact that Eothas might listen to the Watcher?

 

Beacuse what we ended up with is a suprisingly Alan Moore story: we have a protagonist with no drive, agency and little motivation or even a good reason to be in the Archipelago in the first place, that's constantly at the mercy of flawed, powerful beings that we know are in the wrong. And we have no say in any of this - we can just meekly watch as they potentially blow up Eora for "our good". Eothas entire argument is something along the lines of "I saved you, no reason to thank me. Now figure out for yourselves how not to die horribly in result. Peace out". The point that I made an Archipelago a slightly better place is moot, when the whole world might die out anyway.

 

I guess some people like this type of nihilistic agency-less stories - but I would argue if it makes for a satisfying videogame story.

I think that Watchmen are a great comicbook but would've been a pretty crappy videogame anyway.

 

But that's just me - and admittedly this franchise simply does not resonate with me, despite my best efforts.

Edited July 25, 2018 by aksrasjel

[Tick]

What forum is that on? That's Josh Sawyer? That's kind of heartbreaking if all of that kind of feedback got him burned out on making the games themselves. :/

 

I liked that you couldn't just become badass and fight Eothas. I've gotten sick of all the pure power-fantasy fantasy stories that go down the same route over and over, and one of the reasons I like the Pillars games is that they're thoroughly not that way. I had wished that there was a more lengthy conversation to try to convince him not to do it or argue (not necessarily to succeed) , but that's my only real gripe.

[Skazz]

What forum is that on? That's Josh Sawyer?

 

Something Awful forums, and yeah, that's his account.

 

Also, I feel for Josh. I hope he doesn't get too bogged down in all the negativity - people may disagree about certain plot/system choices, but at the end of the day Deadfire is still a good game.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Skazz

[Guest]

I'm not buying Josh's argument actually - at least not in full. He refuses to adhere to safe Campbellian fantasy tropes, he doesn't want to be subversive about it, he's not interested in "big confrontations" - fine, that's his story. What do you propose instead?

The problem is that "I'm not doing an obvious story trope" is only half of the solution. Where is he going with this? What does he want his story to be? Does he come up with some fresh and interesting ideas instead that neither conform to fantasy cliches nor subvert them? Beacuse otherwise we might be left with a whole bunch of "nothings" in place of the story IMO.

“Conclusions” are usually addressed in the third act / part 3. Act 2 / part 2s are for rising tension, which this was.

[Verde]

My question to him is - why are the main story missions so short on both content and narrative?

Edited July 25, 2018 by Verde

[Guest]

My question to him is - why are the main story missions so short on both content and narrative?

Because people bitched that factions didn’t matter in the first game. So they built the second game around factions.

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

Fighting Eothas is definitely a bad choice.

 

I like that the game tries to revolve around that idea.

 

Could it have been better?

 

Yeah.

 

Could it have been worse?

 

Oh, yeah.

 

It quite ok in my book.  

[Celan]

The problem is that people like to feel a sense of accomplishment at the end of a long, involved game. Going through all that to essentially end up a spectator doesn't give a sense of reward or consequence.

[Androoh]

Beacuse what we ended up with is a suprisingly Alan Moore story: we have a protagonist with no drive, agency and little motivation or even a good reason to be in the Archipelago in the first place, that's constantly at the mercy of flawed, powerful beings that we know are in the wrong. And we have no say in any of this - we can just meekly watch as they potentially blow up Eora for "our good". Eothas entire argument is something along the lines of "I saved you, no reason to thank me. Now figure out for yourselves how not to die horribly in result. Peace out". The point that I made an Archipelago a slightly better place is moot, when the whole world might die out anyway.

 

Well Eothas does have a chunk of your soul that you're wanting back so as not to die, so there's a measure of motivation stemming from that.

[Guest]

 

Beacuse what we ended up with is a suprisingly Alan Moore story: we have a protagonist with no drive, agency and little motivation or even a good reason to be in the Archipelago in the first place, that's constantly at the mercy of flawed, powerful beings that we know are in the wrong. And we have no say in any of this - we can just meekly watch as they potentially blow up Eora for "our good". Eothas entire argument is something along the lines of "I saved you, no reason to thank me. Now figure out for yourselves how not to die horribly in result. Peace out". The point that I made an Archipelago a slightly better place is moot, when the whole world might die out anyway.

 

Well Eothas does have a chunk of your soul that you're wanting back so as not to die, so there's a measure of motivation stemming from that.

Not to mention Berath who stuck a kill switch in your chest and tells you not to make her use it. That’s kinda sorta motivating also. Or, for those of us who play nice guys, there’s all the death and destruction to stop. But other than those three things, there’s no agency, drive, or motivation at all.

[Teukros]

 

Beacuse what we ended up with is a suprisingly Alan Moore story: we have a protagonist with no drive, agency and little motivation or even a good reason to be in the Archipelago in the first place, that's constantly at the mercy of flawed, powerful beings that we know are in the wrong. And we have no say in any of this - we can just meekly watch as they potentially blow up Eora for "our good". Eothas entire argument is something along the lines of "I saved you, no reason to thank me. Now figure out for yourselves how not to die horribly in result. Peace out". The point that I made an Archipelago a slightly better place is moot, when the whole world might die out anyway.

 

Well Eothas does have a chunk of your soul that you're wanting back so as not to die, so there's a measure of motivation stemming from that.

 

In PoE It's heavily implied that mutilated souls grow back in time.

[aksrasjel]

Well Eothas does have a chunk of your soul that you're wanting back so as not to die, so there's a measure of motivation stemming from that.

Agreed. I'll definately give you that one - you have me here. Unfortunately, it doesn't come into meaningful play - both gameplay and storywise. It think it's mentioned in a few places but that's about it - the game kinda forgets about it after a while. But it could have been a good story arc for the Watcher if done well - similarly to their "insanity" problem in PoE 1.  It didn't work for me as a motivating factor, but to each it's own.

 

Not to mention Berath who stuck a kill switch in your chest and tells you not to make her use it. That’s kinda sorta motivating also. Or, for those of us who play nice guys, there’s all the death and destruction to stop. But other than those three things, there’s no agency, drive, or motivation at all. 

 

@Achilles

This is the "At the mercy of flawed powerful beings" part that kicks in. The argument can be made that the Watcher doesn't have that much of a personal stake in this whole Eothas business. - unless you *really* liked Caed Nua. You are at Berath's mercy all the way through - you either agree to seek Eothas or you'll die. And this doesn't motivate me to go find Eothas all that much. It motivates me to try to free myself from Berath's influence - and that's impossible. But again, apples, oranges, all that jazz.

Edited July 25, 2018 by aksrasjel

[Guest]

you either agree to seek Eothas or you'll die. And this doesn't motivate me to go find Eothas all that much. It motivates me to try to free myself from Berath's influence - and that's impossible.

If the threat of certain death doesn’t motivate you, then I don’t know what the writers could have possibly done to please you. Invent a threatened love interest out of whole cloth? Tell you that you bore offspring in the 5 year gap and then use that to get you going?

 

At some point, I think it’s fair to expect us, the players, to engage.

[aksrasjel]

 

you either agree to seek Eothas or you'll die. And this doesn't motivate me to go find Eothas all that much. It motivates me to try to free myself from Berath's influence - and that's impossible.

If the threat of certain death doesn’t motivate you, then I don’t know what the writers could have possibly done to please you. Invent a threatened love interest out of whole cloth? Tell you that you bore offspring in the 5 year gap and then use that to get you going?

 

At some point, I think it’s fair to expect us, the players, to engage.

You misunderstood. It does motivate me - it's just that the target of my motivation is different from what the writers intended. I guess I simply don't enjoy being blatantly ordered around under the threat of death. It's the Atlas scenario from Bioshock.

 

But still - points have been made - agree to disagree?

Edited July 25, 2018 by aksrasjel