Finally some sales evidence

[grasida]

I wouldn’t go to Final Fantasy as an example of how to build a creative, different, but popular setting. First of all, as a point of historical interest, the original Final Fantasy was a Dungeons and Dragons campaign with some different mechanics and with the serial number filed off. It has elves and dwarves, as well as mindflayers and beholders (renamed in the English release). Of course, it also has space stations and robots armed with nuclear weapons, so the imitation only goes so far. Regardless, the series clearly moved on from imitating traditional western fantasy, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not based on it’s own set of easily accessible cliches. Anime and Manga is to Final Fantasy what Dungeons and Dragons is to western RPGs. Final Fantasy games don’t demand all that much from the player, everyone going into one pretty much knows what to expect and will feel solidly within their comfort zone.

 

People who don’t like certain aspects of the game, or who just like to post negative rants online, feel vindicated by the poor sales. But there are plenty of people in the thread saying that Deadfire will be remembered as a great RPG for a long time, in spite of the sales numbers.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

tbh final fantasy's gone strange from XII onward and - tellingly - thats happened alongside a relative decline in its popularity.

 

XII was an attempt at a western style RPG.

 

XIII was aggressively bare bones then took a sharp left term into chaos with attempts at myth-making.

 

XV looked west again and tried to incorporate sandbox elements.

 

like i understand why u brought it up as an example as something staying the same. the formula set by FFIV survived right through until FFX. but the series has been floundering for an identity for many years. FFXII is 12 years old - i think u could predict more accurately what PoE would do next than you could final fantasy.

 

also fwiw id say the original final fantasy was based on wizardry via dragon quest, not d&d directly.

[InsaneCommander]

like i understand why u brought it up as an example as something staying the same. the formula set by FFIV survived right through until FFX. but the series has been floundering for an identity for many years. FFXII is 12 years old - i think u could predict more accurately what PoE would do next than you could final fantasy.

 

Wow, 12 years? That is how long I haven't cared about FF. I quit FFXII because I didn't save often enough and I did something bad that would require me to replay many hours. But the truth is that I didn't care much anymore.

Edited November 15, 2018 by InsaneCommander

[bigbazoopa]

So i just spoke to one of my old buddies who also enjoys playing CRPGs. I asked him if he had played deadfire and he said this:

 

“ No i havent purchased the game and I probably wont end up purchasing it. I dont see the point in buying the game because you have to start all over again at level 1 just like i did in POE1. In the baldurs gate series i was able to continue advancing my character after he hit the level 9 level cap In bg1 and then continue to advance him to around level 20 in bg2. I watched youtube videos of game reviewers reviewing deadfire and was very dissapointed to see that obsidian just mostly used the same spells and abilities from poe1 in poe2. So what is the point in starting all over again at level 1 and using all the same spells and abilities all over again”

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Ye i think everyone stopped playing pokemon for the same reason. Whats the point in levelling up pikachu from lv 1 for twenty games running.

[Guest Psychovampiric Shield]

So i just spoke to one of my old buddies who also enjoys playing CRPGs. I asked him if he had played deadfire and he said this:

 

“ No i havent purchased the game and I probably wont end up purchasing it. I dont see the point in buying the game because you have to start all over again at level 1 just like i did in POE1. In the baldurs gate series i was able to continue advancing my character after he hit the level 9 level cap In bg1 and then continue to advance him to around level 20 in bg2. I watched youtube videos of game reviewers reviewing deadfire and was very dissapointed to see that obsidian just mostly used the same spells and abilities from poe1 in poe2. So what is the point in starting all over again at level 1 and using all the same spells and abilities all over again”

 

Looks like he has been badly misled by youtubers, because though spells/abilities are often "the same", or seem so, PoE 2 differs from 1 quite substantially (unlike in case of BG1/2, let alone their EE versions). If that was the only beef he had with Deadfire, he can buy it, no worries.

Anyway, I would prefer starting from level 1 even if it did not differ, because RPG systems invariantly work best at lower levels and only get worse the further one progresses, so I am happy with Deadfire not mimicking BG2.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Psychovampiric Shield

[kanisatha]

 

So i just spoke to one of my old buddies who also enjoys playing CRPGs. I asked him if he had played deadfire and he said this:

 

“ No i havent purchased the game and I probably wont end up purchasing it. I dont see the point in buying the game because you have to start all over again at level 1 just like i did in POE1. In the baldurs gate series i was able to continue advancing my character after he hit the level 9 level cap In bg1 and then continue to advance him to around level 20 in bg2. I watched youtube videos of game reviewers reviewing deadfire and was very dissapointed to see that obsidian just mostly used the same spells and abilities from poe1 in poe2. So what is the point in starting all over again at level 1 and using all the same spells and abilities all over again”

 

Looks like he has been badly misled by youtubers, because though spells/abilities are often "the same", or seem so, PoE 2 differs from 1 quite substantially (unlike in case of BG1/2, let alone their EE versions). If that the only beef he has with Deadfire, he can buy it, no worries.

Anyway, I would prefer starting from level 1 even if it did not differ, because RPG systems invariantly work best at lower levels and only get worse the further one progresses, so I am happy with Deadfire not mimicking BG2.

^This. Plus PoE1 took us well beyond level 9 in comparison with BG1, so in effect PoE1 did what BG1 and 2 combined did from a levels standpoint.

 

One additional thing that I feel is important to this discussion is that Obs specifically did NOT title PoE2 as "PoE2". That is how we're talking about the game in these forums, but there is no "2" in the title of the game. So the proper way to look at the game is that it is a completely new game relative to PoE1 and you really don't need to have played 1 to enjoy 2.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

RPG systems invariantly work best at lower levels and only get worse the further one progresses

Preach

 

Ive got a soft spot for shadows of undrentide simply because it was a solid low level campaign and u dont see nearly enough of them. I also revisit bg1 a fair bit cos it caps out at lv 9ish.

 

High level lunacy can be funny and satisfying in rp context but games often stop feeling like games at that point - either number crunching or screensaver.

 

All love to those who enjoy epic level nonsense. Without them, we wouldnt have the work of art that is the neutronium golem, but it aint my personal jam.

[protopersona]

Final Fantasy 11 was their first attempt at an MMO, and heavily cribbed a lot of design concepts from the reigning champ of the day, Everquest. They were the first MMO to try to have an actual plot and narrative though.

 

FF12 was an attempt to make the open world gameplay of an MMO in a solo player game. The lead UI designer for FF14 currently was the co-lead director on FF12. A lot of the mechanical shorthands of FF12 have made their way into FF14 very successfully.

 

FF13 and FF15 were very much their attempts at courting what they thought western audiences wanted. FF15 actually started development as FF13 part 2, so the similarities shouldn't be all that surprising.

 

The success of the more recent Dragon Quest games should have been a signal to Square Enix that they need to go back to basics with the next mainline FF title. Don't fix what ain't broke.

Edited November 15, 2018 by protopersona

[house2fly]

 

 

So i just spoke to one of my old buddies who also enjoys playing CRPGs. I asked him if he had played deadfire and he said this:

 

“ No i havent purchased the game and I probably wont end up purchasing it. I dont see the point in buying the game because you have to start all over again at level 1 just like i did in POE1. In the baldurs gate series i was able to continue advancing my character after he hit the level 9 level cap In bg1 and then continue to advance him to around level 20 in bg2. I watched youtube videos of game reviewers reviewing deadfire and was very dissapointed to see that obsidian just mostly used the same spells and abilities from poe1 in poe2. So what is the point in starting all over again at level 1 and using all the same spells and abilities all over again”

Looks like he has been badly misled by youtubers, because though spells/abilities are often "the same", or seem so, PoE 2 differs from 1 quite substantially (unlike in case of BG1/2, let alone their EE versions). If that the only beef he has with Deadfire, he can buy it, no worries.

Anyway, I would prefer starting from level 1 even if it did not differ, because RPG systems invariantly work best at lower levels and only get worse the further one progresses, so I am happy with Deadfire not mimicking BG2.

^This. Plus PoE1 took us well beyond level 9 in comparison with BG1, so in effect PoE1 did what BG1 and 2 combined did from a levels standpoint.

 

One additional thing that I feel is important to this discussion is that Obs specifically did NOT title PoE2 as "PoE2". That is how we're talking about the game in these forums, but there is no "2" in the title of the game. So the proper way to look at the game is that it is a completely new game relative to PoE1 and you really don't need to have played 1 to enjoy 2.

lol yes there is

 

[injurai]

Fun fact, PoE1 is actually titled Pillars of Eternity I: Dyrwood

[InsaneCommander]

They could make a prequel, Pillars of Eternity 0: The Saint's War.

 

"I'll see you in the fire Waidwen!"

[Mallard]

Actually, the title of the first game's base campaign appears to be "The Hollowing of the Dyrwood":

 

[kanisatha]

 

 

 

So i just spoke to one of my old buddies who also enjoys playing CRPGs. I asked him if he had played deadfire and he said this:

 

“ No i havent purchased the game and I probably wont end up purchasing it. I dont see the point in buying the game because you have to start all over again at level 1 just like i did in POE1. In the baldurs gate series i was able to continue advancing my character after he hit the level 9 level cap In bg1 and then continue to advance him to around level 20 in bg2. I watched youtube videos of game reviewers reviewing deadfire and was very dissapointed to see that obsidian just mostly used the same spells and abilities from poe1 in poe2. So what is the point in starting all over again at level 1 and using all the same spells and abilities all over again”

Looks like he has been badly misled by youtubers, because though spells/abilities are often "the same", or seem so, PoE 2 differs from 1 quite substantially (unlike in case of BG1/2, let alone their EE versions). If that the only beef he has with Deadfire, he can buy it, no worries.

Anyway, I would prefer starting from level 1 even if it did not differ, because RPG systems invariantly work best at lower levels and only get worse the further one progresses, so I am happy with Deadfire not mimicking BG2.

^This. Plus PoE1 took us well beyond level 9 in comparison with BG1, so in effect PoE1 did what BG1 and 2 combined did from a levels standpoint.

 

One additional thing that I feel is important to this discussion is that Obs specifically did NOT title PoE2 as "PoE2". That is how we're talking about the game in these forums, but there is no "2" in the title of the game. So the proper way to look at the game is that it is a completely new game relative to PoE1 and you really don't need to have played 1 to enjoy 2.

lol yes there is

 

 

Fair enough. I stand corrected. But if you look at references to the game made by the devs including Sawyer they always refer to it simply as 'Deadfire' and not as PoE2.

[bigbazoopa]

 

So i just spoke to one of my old buddies who also enjoys playing CRPGs. I asked him if he had played deadfire and he said this:

 

“ No i havent purchased the game and I probably wont end up purchasing it. I dont see the point in buying the game because you have to start all over again at level 1 just like i did in POE1. In the baldurs gate series i was able to continue advancing my character after he hit the level 9 level cap In bg1 and then continue to advance him to around level 20 in bg2. I watched youtube videos of game reviewers reviewing deadfire and was very dissapointed to see that obsidian just mostly used the same spells and abilities from poe1 in poe2. So what is the point in starting all over again at level 1 and using all the same spells and abilities all over again”

 

Looks like he has been badly misled by youtubers, because though spells/abilities are often "the same", or seem so, PoE 2 differs from 1 quite substantially (unlike in case of BG1/2, let alone their EE versions). If that was the only beef he had with Deadfire, he can buy it, no worries.

Anyway, I would prefer starting from level 1 even if it did not differ, because RPG systems invariantly work best at lower levels and only get worse the further one progresses, so I am happy with Deadfire not mimicking BG2.

 

He wasnt mislead by YT.

 

The spells for Wizards, Druids, Priests, Ciphers are almost identical to the first game.

 

What are you talking about he was mislead?

 

Once again we have this same situation with Fanbois on this forum refusing to believe cold hard facts with evidence to back it up. I noticed your post even got multiple likes. 

[house2fly]

Some of them are identical, some of them have been heavily revised due to the new mechanics, some of them do almost completely different things. There's also a lot of new spells and effects

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Once again we have this same situation with Fanbois on this forum refusing to believe cold hard facts with evidence to back it up. I noticed your post even got multiple likes.

[protopersona]

 

Once again we have this same situation with Fanbois on this forum refusing to believe cold hard facts with evidence to back it up. I noticed your post even got multiple likes.

 

I'm confused. Is this in defense of bigbazoopa or mocking him?

 

I kinda get where his friend is coming from. A sequel that picks up right where the last one left off with essentially the same character but completely wipes all the progress you worked for is a hard sell. Especially when it looks on the surface like they are making you play through mostly the same character progress. Sure things have changed under the hood, but that's not conveyed very well in the marketing.  Without playing both games yourself or doing some research it's an easy assumption to make. It makes a degree of sense about why a lot of people could have looked at the game and got turned off by it.

Edited November 16, 2018 by protopersona

[Boeroer]

 

 

So i just spoke to one of my old buddies who also enjoys playing CRPGs. I asked him if he had played deadfire and he said this:

 

“ No i havent purchased the game and I probably wont end up purchasing it. I dont see the point in buying the game because you have to start all over again at level 1 just like i did in POE1. In the baldurs gate series i was able to continue advancing my character after he hit the level 9 level cap In bg1 and then continue to advance him to around level 20 in bg2. I watched youtube videos of game reviewers reviewing deadfire and was very dissapointed to see that obsidian just mostly used the same spells and abilities from poe1 in poe2. So what is the point in starting all over again at level 1 and using all the same spells and abilities all over again”

Looks like he has been badly misled by youtubers, because though spells/abilities are often "the same", or seem so, PoE 2 differs from 1 quite substantially (unlike in case of BG1/2, let alone their EE versions). If that was the only beef he had with Deadfire, he can buy it, no worries.

Anyway, I would prefer starting from level 1 even if it did not differ, because RPG systems invariantly work best at lower levels and only get worse the further one progresses, so I am happy with Deadfire not mimicking BG2.

He wasnt mislead by YT.

 

The spells for Wizards, Druids, Priests, Ciphers are almost identical to the first game.

 

What are you talking about he was mislead?

 

Once again we have this same situation with Fanbois on this forum refusing to believe cold hard facts with evidence to back it up. I noticed your post even got multiple likes.

What do you mean? Your evidence is a story about a friend of yours who watched YouTube videos?

 

What facts does that back up (I mean besides the fact that you posted that story in an internet forum).

 

If I'd tell a story about my best buddy Earl the Turquoise Elephant who told me that he bought Deadfire twelve times because there are some cool new spells in it - would that also count as evidence? I mean besides the cold hard fact that I drank too much nail polish?

 

To start all over at lvl 1 and to reuse the same spells (by name) while the whole mechanics got reworked was a decision that we might not agree with. But to be able to use this as evidence for anything we'd need to have survey data, meta research, telemetry data or a bunch of interviews. Or maybe an official gal/guy who steps forward and explains stuff. Everything else we do here is (mostly interesting) speculation, hearsay, indicators and anecdotes.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Boeroer

[bigbazoopa]

Are you referring to the evidence where obsidian reused nearly all the same spells and abilities from the first game and then made evryone start from level one and reuse them again or are you talking about other evidence?

[wih]

Deadfire is a different adventure than PoE 1. And the game is much improved. Those are the primary reasons to play it.

If someone doesn't want to play it because of the need to start from level 1, they probably aren't the target audience anyway.

I strongly hoped I won't be level 17 at the start of the game.

[Guest Psychovampiric Shield]

 

 

So i just spoke to one of my old buddies who also enjoys playing CRPGs. I asked him if he had played deadfire and he said this:

 

“ No i havent purchased the game and I probably wont end up purchasing it. I dont see the point in buying the game because you have to start all over again at level 1 just like i did in POE1. In the baldurs gate series i was able to continue advancing my character after he hit the level 9 level cap In bg1 and then continue to advance him to around level 20 in bg2. I watched youtube videos of game reviewers reviewing deadfire and was very dissapointed to see that obsidian just mostly used the same spells and abilities from poe1 in poe2. So what is the point in starting all over again at level 1 and using all the same spells and abilities all over again”

 

Looks like he has been badly misled by youtubers, because though spells/abilities are often "the same", or seem so, PoE 2 differs from 1 quite substantially (unlike in case of BG1/2, let alone their EE versions). If that was the only beef he had with Deadfire, he can buy it, no worries.

Anyway, I would prefer starting from level 1 even if it did not differ, because RPG systems invariantly work best at lower levels and only get worse the further one progresses, so I am happy with Deadfire not mimicking BG2.

 

He wasnt mislead by YT.

 

The spells for Wizards, Druids, Priests, Ciphers are almost identical to the first game.

 

What are you talking about he was mislead?

 

Once again we have this same situation with Fanbois on this forum refusing to believe cold hard facts with evidence to back it up. I noticed your post even got multiple likes. 

 

 

I will give you an example. Mental Binding is the same spell in both games, but debuffs are not the same; instead of massive -40/20 deflection/reflex there is now -5 dex (-10 reflex, -15% action speed) and some chance for hit to crit conversion (and crits themselves were tuned down). That makes it very different spell.

 

Another example. Have you ever used Spirit Shield in PoE 1? No, you have not, because you were naturally spamming Slicken in between Fireballs, perhaps on top of Chill Fog. But again, debuffs are different, and +3 DR is now also a different thing.

 

This has nothing to do with fanboyism. After all, I would be the first to complain about druids, prisets and wizards, ironically because they are "the same class" as in PoE 1, but really they are not, and what they are irks me (wizards especially, like...jeez).

Simply put, somebody who knows PoE 1 watching Deadfire videos, but has not played it, is bound to get skewed picture, because "the same things" are not the same things.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Psychovampiric Shield

[InsaneCommander]

Deadfire is a different adventure than PoE 1. And the game is much improved. Those are the primary reasons to play it.

If someone doesn't want to play it because of the need to start from level 1, they probably aren't the target audience anyway.

I strongly hoped I won't be level 17 at the start of the game.

 

I prefer to start at level 1 than at level 17. The explanation for the Watcher going back to 1 is ok, but don't ask me about Eder, Aloth and Pallegina...

[house2fly]

In addition to a lot of abilities being reworked, there are multiclasses and subclasses now, all of which can make a difference in how the game is played. Plus obviously a whole swath of new unique items, with a new upgrade system where every unique item has multiple unique spells and effects to choose from, all to be used in a combat system that was basically remade from the ground up. Most of the ability icons on the character sheet looking the same isn't nearly telling the whole story.

[Hassat Hunter]

people hate bugs, but unless they are really bad they don't hurt too bad. I think a critical difference is that PoE1 felt a bit more mechanically stable, whereas Deadfire basically had a day-one nerf/balancing patch, and I feel like the first few patches were just trying to desperately rebalance the game. Anecdotally, before Deadfire I spent 90% of my forum posts just reporting bugs and the nature of bugs I report between PoE1 and Deadfire points into the direction where Deadfire is less overall broken and the stuff I want fixed is much lower priority cosmetic and oddities, instead of complete ability implementation misses and various forms of soft-locking the game (the most major of which at last check never truly got fixed).

 

I suppose it can be from mechanical standpoint? I don't care as much about that as some other people on these forums. But PoE2 got a host of unfinishable quests and the entire random encounter system are broken. These are BIG issues and I don't recall that happening in PoE1. And I'm not even sure any of these have been fixed as of yet. But that's just my experience between the two itself of course. 

 

He wasnt mislead by YT.

 

The spells for Wizards, Druids, Priests, Ciphers are almost identical to the first game.

 

What are you talking about he was mislead?

 

Once again we have this same situation with Fanbois on this forum refusing to believe cold hard facts with evidence to back it up. I noticed your post even got multiple likes.

Different people, different likes? It seems pretty clear from the likes on other post vs. yours people here ACTUALLY prefer to start at lvl 1 rather than lvl 20 godhouses. Nothing to do with "fanboi excuses" at all. One thing a lot of people ask for nowadays is Open-World. I hate it. Another thing some people foam about is lack of New Game+. I personally never saw what's interesting about replaying the game like that. And then sometimes those are the same people that are throwing tantrums if there's a levelcap since completing content without leveling is evil (you've seen a bunch of that happening for PoE1 and 2 I'm sure.)

 

I'm confused. Is this in defense of bigbazoopa or mocking him?

 

I kinda get where his friend is coming from. A sequel that picks up right where the last one left off with essentially the same character but completely wipes all the progress you worked for is a hard sell. Especially when it looks on the surface like they are making you play through mostly the same character progress. Sure things have changed under the hood, but that's not conveyed very well in the marketing.  Without playing both games yourself or doing some research it's an easy assumption to make. It makes a degree of sense about why a lot of people could have looked at the game and got turned off by it.

I'm currently playing Hyperdimensional Neptunia Re;Birth 3. It even has a literal joke at the start how you went from "level 99 or higher with DLC" back to 1 again and have to re-do the entire leveling. And people love it. Also I don't think I have to tell you the series sells as hotcakes. Pokemon has been brought up aswell, same story. Infact I would say sequels that do otherwise are few and very far between. Arkham games some gadgets "stick" but most you have to unlock once more. I'm not old enough for Ultima but it's the same char like what, 12 times, I doubt they stuck progression through all those. Recent tomb raiders even though the second is a prequel so it makes sense to re-learn it then makes little sense for having to relearn it all in the first game and you can probably go on and on. And on the other side there's... BG2. Ehm... can you literally give ANY game where level and stuff was kept between 2 games (It's even a cop-out on BG2 since health and stuff gets re-rolled due to new rules). I know I can't think of ANY. If that's a gripe of someone, boy, do they have a lot of games they should have issues with.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Hassat Hunter